Good way to explain why i should use an amp and board over processor

[FosterF]

At my church, we have about 5-6,000 people and a huge very nice sound system. Every guitar player in the church (for main worship, youth, college Etc.) uses an amp and a board and we put them in iso boxes. But I started playing in the children's area and all the sound guys and the drummer don't understand the superiority of this. They want me to get a POD or the Zoom one. But I just place my amp under the stage and take the heat they give me about it. How can I explain the awesomeness of analog effects and tube tone!?

[PinewoodRo]

Welcome to 2011!
Kids eh! If it takes any trouble to do it, they're not interested...

[unchained]

Ask them if they would like a big juicy hamburger, then give them a soy burger and tell them it's the same thing as a real burger.

[FosterF]

Amen @PinewoodRo!!

Originally Posted by unchained

Ask them if they would like a big juicy hamburger, then give them a soy burger and tell them it's the same thing as a real burger.

Haha! I love this! ^

I know some people love multi-effects processors (different strokes for different folks) but FOR ME they sound sterile. I love the tube feel and picking dynamics. No $200 board can emulate thousands of dollars worth of pro rig.

[praisebass]

Children's worship especially is suitable for a tube amp. My wife directs the children's worship service for our church so i am often called on to play. The kids seem to really get excited and get really engaged when I use a tele and a tube amp. Its just better and more real and the kids know it. I used a DI into the board this past Sunday and my wife got onto me for not using an amp.

[javabirds]

What size amp are we talking about? I'm guessing they are not using acoustic drums either. If your amp is big enough for an isolation cab, why not just use a smaller amp that is more comparable to stage monitor volume. That way you can keep it next to you angled at your head. Or are you using in-ear monitors? I don't go for that. If your sound guys are completely against any stage volume, then you have a tough row to hoe.

[FosterF]

Originally Posted by javabirds

What size amp are we talking about? I'm guessing they are not using acoustic drums either. If your amp is big enough for an isolation cab, why not just use a smaller amp that is more comparable to stage monitor volume. That way you can keep it next to you angled at your head. Or are you using in-ear monitors? I don't go for that. If your sound guys are completely against any stage volume, then you have a tough row to hoe.

7-15 watts. I keep it on the 7 and at about 70% volume. All under the stage so no stage volume. And yes we use in-ears and an electric drumset.

[Aussie Matt]

I read posts like this and wonder if we really complicate things at churches. You just don't come across it anywhere else (well I don't, FWIW). Iso boxes, under-stage amp positions, DI directly into the desk, in-ear monitoring, line-outs, Pods and the like – kind of makes me wonder why we bother with electric guitars if we can't do as intended and plug them into an amp on stage and play!

[SngleCoil]

Since you have a way to keep stage volume under control, I'd say there is not a very compelling arguement against using your amp. I think your strongest arguement for using your amp is that you aren't required to go out and spend money on a modeler.

Now if you want to talk about the merits of amp and pedal board vs. digial modeling...well I'm pretty sure that falls under the category of "religious discussion" and might be in violation of this forum's rules

[Nub]

Originally Posted by FosterF

How can I explain the awesomeness of analog effects and tube tone!?

You can't... because no one in the church cares about it, except maybe a couple of other guitar players.

[mrboson]

Originally Posted by Aussie Matt

I read posts like this and wonder if we really complicate things at churches. You just don't come across it anywhere else (well I don't, FWIW). Iso boxes, under-stage amp positions, DI directly into the desk, in-ear monitoring, line-outs, Pods and the like – kind of makes me wonder why we bother with electric guitars if we can't do as intended and plug them into an amp on stage and play!

I feel the same way about this. Maybe it would be helpful to reconnect with what makes the electric guitar something that people like to hear. Or for that matter, what is about the electric that some folks don't like.

I play out with tube amps, noisy pickups, 60 Hz hum from the stage lights, and when I want high gain you can tell from the increased background noise what is about to come. I personally love that stuff, in live music, when the lead player kicks in a boost or drive just before the solo and you hear that change. Modeling is just so sterile to me, even when it emulates that stuff. You're right, maybe worship music in a church shouldn't include real electric guitar, it seems to be too polarizing. FWIW, when I want to jam and let it all loose, I go unplugged and play acoustics and I have never got a complaint about being too loud or too showy or that I overplayed. Which tells me perhaps the issue really is the pointy shape of the axe, the coily cable, and the perhaps beatup, maybe even bar-worn, beer-stained amp drawing attention instead of the music. Get that stuff out of sight, either under the stage or shrunk down into firmware burned onto a microchip. Why stop there... just sample the sounds and let the keyboard player control them and do away with the pointy thing altogether.

[Aussie Matt]

Originally Posted by mrboson

I feel the same way about this. Maybe it would be helpful to reconnect with what makes the electric guitar something that people like to hear. Or for that matter, what is about the electric that some folks don't like.

I play out with tube amps, noisy pickups, 60 Hz hum from the stage lights, and when I want high gain you can tell from the increased background noise what is about to come. I personally love that stuff, in live music, when the lead player kicks in a boost or drive just before the solo and you hear that change. Modeling is just so sterile to me, even when it emulates that stuff. You're right, maybe worship music in a church shouldn't include real electric guitar, it seems to be too polarizing. FWIW, when I want to jam and let it all loose, I go unplugged and play acoustics and I have never got a complaint about being too loud or too showy or that I overplayed. Which tells me perhaps the issue really is the pointy shape of the axe, the coily cable, and the perhaps beatup, maybe even bar-worn, beer-stained amp drawing attention instead of the music. Get that stuff out of sight, either under the stage or shrunk down into firmware burned onto a microchip. Why stop there... just sample the sounds and let the keyboard player control them and do away with the pointy thing altogether.

Maybe we should put a really sterile Karaoke CD on and we can all sing along to that. That seems to be where it's heading.
The amp, the guitar, the player, the room, and the position of the amp in the room are all too important to mess with. Anyone who has ever recorded could (or should) tell you how important the amp and its position is.
For the record, I wasn't saying do away with electrics, I'm just trying to get my head around it.
All this modelling and DI-ing etc really has me worried, especially as I'm yet to hear of it happening outside of a Christian context. What are the sound guys worried about? It's got me beat.

[Brandon mac]

because its your guitar tone and you can run it through whatever you want,and everybody else can run theirs through whatever they want!!

[CAAD8N8]

I agree with what others have said. Churches are the only places I have seen soundmen feel the "need" to have zero stage volume. That's how my church is and it drives me nuts! Within the last year I talked them into letting me use my amp on stage and run it into a 1x12 speaker cab in an iso box offstage, but that was like pulling teeth and they still rag me about it all the time. It seems as though if it takes any amount of work on their part, the sound guys aren't willing to do it. Best of luck to you in your sound struggles. I wish you the best of luck!

[SngleCoil]

On weeks that I'm not playing, I volunteer on our tech team. It has been a fantastic learning experience watching and learning from 2 of our really talented sound guys. They are volunteers just like I am. They work as hard as anybody else to ensure that we have a great sounding mix. I've learned a two extremely valuable lessons from them:

1. That precious tone that we've perfected in isolation usually disappears in the mix...and it's not the sound guys fault.
2. You cannot effectively mix from stage. And, once stage volume gets out of control, there is not much the sound man can do.

What can I say, church is a more volume sensitive environment that a concert hall or a show at a bar. It doesn't mean you can't have guitar driven music, but sometimes it does mean taking extra care with your volume. There are different ways to address that, though...amp rooms, iso-cabs, modelers...*gasp* everyone turning down Unfortunately, it really sounds like a bunch of churches get set on one way of doing it and the default answer is "just use a modeler."

Our guitarist are running a mix of solutions. Some of us use our tube amps into iso-cabs, some of us use modelers direct. All of us are tone hounds...and all of us have dialed in our choice of solution to sound great in the mix. I switched over to a modeler when the POD HD stuff came out. A year later, I truthfully prefer it to my amp and pedal board. I'm not trying to convince everyone that modelers are the way to go. They are not for everyone. But I routinely have folks - some guitarists, some not - asking about my rig. Most of the guitarist walk away shaking their head in disbelief that I'm using a POD. One guy last week said my tone "was so juicy, I could just take a bite out of it"...no lie. That was probably the weirdest complement I've ever gotten He refused to believe I was running a POD direct.

To those who are concern that modelers are contributing to the downfall of music, I would say, fear not! It is just another tool in the toolbox. I hope no one is ever forced to use one if they don't want to. But the makers of them are not out to destroy your tube amps!

[sax4blues]

Originally Posted by CAAD8N8

I agree with what others have said. Churches are the only places I have seen soundmen feel the "need" to have zero stage volume....

While churches may have the lock on "zero" stage volume, there are new threads every week here about needing a smaller amp cause sound guys at venues say turn down. It's kinda funny but when I try to think about which sound guys are the most fun and which are miserable, the guys that let me turn up seem to be the happiest, most fun, encouraging people.

[CAAD8N8]

Well put SngleCoil! I have no problem with people using modelers, as long as they WANT to. I used to use a POD XT Live and good tones are to be had in the high quality modelers that are being made these days. It's amazing how far they have come in 10-15 years. For me, I just spent way too much time tweaking knobs and plugging into and out of a computer each week to get and save the tones I wanted. Now, I am able to just set up my amp and pedalboard and practice, without tweaking like crazy. I do not completely dismiss user error or complete anal-retentiveness in regard to my constant POD tweaking, but it was still time away from practicing the actual songs and not the tones. Again, I am not anti-modeler, just anti-being forced to use a modeler. Aain, good luck in your situation and let us know how things turn out!

[mrSlush50]

Would a race car driver settle for a copy of Gran Tourismo 5 instead of a Corvette?

The actual guitar is only half the instrument. The amp is the other half. The electric guitar is not electric as in "electronic" it's electric as in "electro-magnetic." Meaning pickups and SPEAKERS.

You can be nice about it, but ask the drummer if he'd (or she'd) be ok with a keyboard that has drum samples programmed into it. Or the vocalists if they wouldn't mind using a Stephen Hawking setup instead of a microphone.

[asatattack]

Using a Pod instead of a tube amp reminds of when I was talking to a tech about hooking up a equalizer to my expensive stereo and he asked me, "Are you sure you want to hook Up a $120 eq to your system?" I've used digital and analog pedals, multi FX units, tube amp and solid state. I use a POD regularly, you can fool some of the people some of the time but the the bottom line is that a POD or solid state amp is not going to replace my Rivera K-Tre or Clubster or Gibson Goldtone. It is not authentic.

[mrboson]

Originally Posted by mrSlush50

The actual guitar is only half the instrument. The amp is the other half. The electric guitar is not electric as in "electronic" it's electric as in "electro-magnetic." Meaning pickups and SPEAKERS.

Yep, what he said. So even putting aside the debate about tube amps verses solid state, I am in the camp that believes my instrument extends through the cable (possibly pedals?) into an amp driving speaker(s). It could even be a modeling amp, but the speaker has to be part of the equation, or it just doesn't feel right to me. When I choose my "instrument", I am selecting a guitar, possibly effects, and an amp to suit the specific task at hand.

Don't ask me to line out (assuming the amp supports that) and if my sound needs to be added to the mix, put a mic in front of my amp. If my stage volume is too loud, I am not turning my rig down, but I am OK with the amp under the stage (and I better get me loud and proud in my monitor mix). If those solutions don't work I guess I would have to consider whether my instrument is the right choice for the church's format. Fortunately it has not come to that for me