Help dealing with prima donna vocalists

[SamClemons]

There is no song you cannot change the key in and play well....if you have enough skill. For example, you might have played it capoed in A.

I always adjust to what the singer wants. That said, when we work out songs, we try to adjust it to the key of the congregation. I play bass, sometimes guitar, and my daughter plays guitar. We sing with the family and pretty easily fine a congregation friendly key, usually D or C by the way.

One tact you might take is to explain to the band that the congregation should be the main "Key" focus. Often the congregation will be used to hearing a song in the key it was recorded in and will be throwed off singing any other key...then you are back to doing the song in the key it was recorded in. The song leader is supposed to be just that anyway, not a soloist. He should just sort of lead and get the ball rolling, not have every song be his own personal solo.

[Ronsonic]

This is another one of those threads that make me feel all happy and stuff.

Yes, I'm always arguing with the Music Director over her perverse love of Eb and other deviant keys. But we do have it pretty well worked out to where nobody demands or insists on a particular key unless it's important. As a band we are very open to doing things our own way for most songs. And there is some distinction between "guitar songs" and "piano songs." Things that need a drone string, well, you can't capo everything.

Where it gets complicated are on songs like the example in the OP where I'm hearing open ringing strings in the chorus. Often we'll get sheet music that the choir insists is "right" but they want it to sound like the recording which is in a different key. It's taken awhile but they are learning to trust me when I say something needs to be in a particular key to sound right. I'll still get over ruled from time to time - apparently singers aren't just making stuff up about their limitations - so there's back and forth but usually it's worked out to everyone's satisfaction.

[Muttcaster]

Originally Posted by TheGoodTexan

I'm just guessing... but this sounds like you're more of a vocalist.

And since I'm called upon to reproduce this memorable riff, I think I have a good case for keeping it in the key which it is recorded in.

No, I'm not. I can't sing a lick. My job is to make the BAND sound as good as I can, in the role I'm given. At some point, you may have to say "this lick cannot be done in this key- what would ya'll like to do?"

I think you missed my point about the singer- they are changing the key into a key that they can sing more comfortably. A singer can't detune or put a capo on. They have to do it where it's best for them.

Again, I think this is a guitar-centric discussion. Your job is to do the best you can do, given the circumstances. If you can't duplicate some lick in the given key, then so be it. Suck it up and do the best you can to support the others. See 1 Corinthians 10:24 and Galatians 6:2.

[wbrent]

Sorry if these thoughts have already been mentioned. I only perused the other comments. Firstly as a worship leader I have an unwritten rule that I will not ask the congregation to try and sing something out of their range. Personally I feel that means no notes over a D. So I adjust my key accordingly. After all we are doing this to lead the congregationj in worship. If they can't sing it they become completely disengaged in the worship time. As a worship leader I watch for that - there are plenty of other things that cause distractions in worship that I try to avoid as well. I happen to lead with a guitar so I am sensitive to the needs and desires of guitarists. But I will often give my team copies of music in different keys so we are covered. So if a song has been written in D I will have it in D but also in say G. If I was asked to sing the song in Bflat I would play it in G capo 3. I know that doesn't help the lead guitarist much in terms of some riffs but it may help in many occasions. There are several songs that we as a group have said " too bad we can't do it like they do it on the original" but thats just the way it is for us. Its all about serving the congregation. Anyway all that to say, talk to your leader, communicate the issues and ask for multiple song sheets.

[TheGoodTexan]

I don't think I've explained what's going on well enough for some of you to understand. When I keep getting suggestions to suck it up, or use a capo... I don't think that many of you are following me (either that, or you haven't read everything).

As some have suggested... you can't properly represent some songs if they are not in the original fingerings (Sweet Home Alabama was a wonderful example of that).... and I think some of you have missed that point entirely. I don't understand how some of you feel that any song can be properly represented in any key... ON ELECTRIC GUITAR... (not bass or acoustic). It's just not so.

This worship team is certainly not about me personally. I could step out and 10 different people could fill my shoes... no problem. But the sound which is desired by the worship leader relies heavily on electric guitar. He calls on me to duplicate certain sounds and riffs from original recordings. I'm just trying to do that, that's all. My frustration lies in the times when I'm asked to do that with unnecessary handcuffs placed on me.

[allen082]

your issues aren't gonna be solved by talking about it on here. talk to the worship leader. after you talk, you can keep playing with the band, you can step down, or you can go somewhere else where you can play how you want.

[bigbandtele]

You're working with the same singer all the time, right?

By now, it should be evident what this person's practical range is. Therefore, the MD should either be picking tunes that fit, bringing transposed lead sheets or using different singers for tunes that need it.

[Nub]

Funny thing is, the congregation, when they're really worshiping, doesn't care about guitar licks. It ain't about the guitar player... and shouldn't be. As for the song you used for an example, Holy One, it's just a power chord riff... put your capo on the first fret, play A to G power chords a few times with some distortion, and no one will be able to tell the difference. (I guess you can add me to the "suck it up and use a capo" group ).

I agree with you, though, the WL shouldn't be changing the song keys every time you do the song... but he certainly has the right to change them to make them comfortable for the congregation and the vocalists to sing. Btw, if you absolutely have to have a signature lick in a song to "properly represent" it, and you can't do it in the non-original key, have the keyboard player do it. You'll be amazed at how no one cares that it wasn't the guitar player playing it.

[TheGoodTexan]

The MD is the lead singer.

And I myself went back and re-read my OP, and although I think I've described the situation accurately, maybe I made it sound more dire than it actually is. I don't desire to quit, and I'm not planning on it.

[00JETT]

half step down helps in these situations

[The Zesus]

He calls on me to duplicate certain sounds and riffs from original recordings. I'm just trying to do that, that's all. My frustration lies in the times when I'm asked to do that with unnecessary handcuffs placed on me

Your frustration is self-imposed. Take off the handcuffs you put on yourself. Tell this guy he gets the choice of: 1. the key he wants with an original electric guitar arrangement, or 2. a faithful reproduction of the electric guitar part in the song's original key. Make him be decisive. If he refuses to choose he gets option number 1. You get to write your own part, and for one song you won't be bored with "butt-simple (read: monotonous)" changes.

[SamClemons]

I would disagree with your assertion that some songs must be played in a certain key to sound good. You should be able to change your fingering to adequately play any song. I cannot think of any example, including some of those listed that can not be played in any key successfully and I am not a particularly talented guitar player. You may need both a key change and a capo. Bb is an easy change, capo 1 and a played in A puts you there. You might want a guitar tuned down a half step. You may need to get more creative in your playing, learn some new positions, work harder at key changes etc. I know that is hard on the fly with limited time for rehearsal. It may even mean dropping that favorite riff or solo, but many worship songs are still good worship songs with just the basics without all the fluff. On the other hand, keep trying to work with the singer, maybe have a sit down lunch with him and tell him of what you can, and cannot do. He probably does not care if you play the riff and solos, or not.

[LawDaddy]

I come at this question from backing blues singers on the west coast for years as a bandleader. I've worked with many divas, male and female. I don't have a worship background, but this is a universal challenge.

Since vocalists can't re-tune or capo their vocal chords, I have always worked hard to get the songs in the best key during rehearsal for the vocalist. Bb is a very common natural key, especially for women I have worked with, just as Eb is common for men. Sounds like the OP's singers might have similar tendencies.

The problem I see with the OP is his statement that he refuses to switch guitars during the performance. Why? Is there a practical reason? If the genre requires open voicings, and the vocalists keep calling the same keys, why not have a guitar tuned to Eb standard? The above song can then be played in B, and actually sounds pretty good, I just tried it. It ends up sounding more like "Long Way To The Top If You Want To Rock and Roll" AC/DC, but it gets job done. If they call F#, you're in G. Problem solved? Seems like the most practical solution to a common issue.

Another option is to purchase a detune pedal, have you looked at that?

My main point is that when I'm working with singers that have a narrow range for keys, I'll tend to adapt to the reality of the situation, so I'd likely de-tune in this situation.

Having said that, your other question was how to handle constantly changing keys. This is where I put my foot down - I don't. If I de-tune for a vocalist, then that has to be the key for performance. By me adapting my tuning for them, the vocalist has to then understand that in return, they can't go off changing keys. If it's a stright-ahead blues tune, then maybe it's no big deal.

But if it's a song with a special arrangement, like open voicings etc., I make it very clear in rehearsal that the agreed key is the final key. If it doesn't work in the performance, then we can change it next rehearsal. It's part of the bargain.

Finally, there are some songs that really can't be transposed without losing the original flavor of the tune. Sweet Home is a good example. If you de-tune you can get a half-step that direction, and a capo can only get you so far before it sounds like a ukelele. Stairway To Heaven in C#m is not good. Some songs are just out of reach for some singers.

But to get to the point of saying no to a song because of a key change, I would endeavor to establish myself as the most accommodating player possible by:

1) Detuning to get in the home area for my vocalists, thereby solving the majority of problems;
2) Rearranging songs as best I can to capture the feel of the original within reason, like moving from C-D to A-B in the song above; and
3) Using a capo where possible, but staying out of ukelele-land.

But - I would tell the worship leader that only so much magic can be worked with 6 strings, especially with contemporary songs. Some songs may just be off-limits for certain singers.

Sorry for the wordy response. Hope this helps...

[DocG]

My Roland VG-8, which at this point is old tech and can be had for about a hundred bucks, can transpose up or down as much as two octaves. I'm not saying it can't be told from your real guitar, but it's not bad at all, and would certainly address your problem with the signature licks only sounding good in one fingering. That's what I'd do. Much easier to throw equipment at the problem than feel like you're in a lose-lose situation.

[TheGoodTexan]

So many responses... thank you to everyone. Some of your responses have frustrated me, but in a kindred spirit, I have tried to temper my attitude and be more open minded to everyone's thoughts.

The reason I don't want to change guitars during the set is that, we only usually present four songs on any given night, and we try to "paint a backdrop" with our songs, meaning no down time between songs. Even songs that can't be meshed together, we stop at the end of one... then BAM!... directly into the next tune.

And personally... I don't give a rip about playing some of these songs exactly like the artist's recording. I'm only following the directions given to me by the director. "No, that intro doesn't sound right" is not an uncommon phrase from him, even after he's changed the key.

Something I have wanted to try for a looong time... and that is looping. And here's how it could help this situation... I could grab a loop near the end of a song and allow it to go on while I mute my signal and swap guitars... mean while the rest of the band is still playing along with my loop. Then I come back in and play along with the loop as I fade it out... but I've got a different guitar now, tuned and ready for the next song's key.

[crackpot]

Originally Posted by TheGoodTexan

Something I have wanted to try for a looong time... and that is looping. And here's how it could help this situation... I could grab a loop near the end of a song and allow it to go on while I mute my signal and swap guitars... mean while the rest of the band is still playing along with my loop. Then I come back in and play along with the loop as I fade it out... but I've got a different guitar now, tuned and ready for the next song's key.

Okay. I'm back. Just in time to see that you've moved into creative problem solving mode (for me, the most satisfying aspect of playing). Soon, if you don't watch yourself, you'll be writing seques for those songs that don't go together.

[SamClemons]

If you are only going to use one guitar, you might be better off with one tuned down a half step. You can always capo up one to standard tuning. I see a lot of CCM bands doing this.

[sax4blues]

I have a similar experience every week but we have a really cohesive and easy going group so there just haven't been any issues.

But... the singers do rule, that's just what it is. On the other side, I just do the best I can. It is not that important to me or our worship band that we "nail" the guitar parts from a recording. If there are some key licks we'll get that, but capo or moveable chords are the norm.

Now in our service we are playing for congregational singing except one song at offering which would be a little more performance oriented. So again, with 300 people singing, the effect of a particular finger of a chord for me is miniscule.

[RodeoTex]

This really sounds like a people situation way more than a music problem. You don't want to capo and you don't want to quit the group. You don't feel the need to exactly replicate the original recording but the vocal range of the singer loses the main guitar riff of the song.
I got very frustrated reading the OP and all the suggestions just to hear why none of them would work.
I liked the idea about just sitting down and talking with the guy and putting it all on the table.
Looper? OK I'll agree with that if that was the only agreeable solution anyway.

(Honestly, I was hoping we'd found a new DULLARD)

[TheGoodTexan]

Originally Posted by RodeoTex

I got very frustrated reading the OP and all the suggestions just to hear why none of them would work.

Yeah, I got tired of myself too during my responses. I understand what you're saying.

Originally Posted by RodeoTex

(Honestly, I was hoping we'd found a new DULLARD)

I wish I could, but I no longer think that it would be well received, even in the Bad Dog.

In the two years that I took a vacation from the TDPri, the culture around here changed a little... to where people are less tolerant of poking fun at other people. There often seems to be a kill-joy jump in and make everyone feel bad.... "Guys, she's probably a single mom just trying to make ends meet. Can't we cut her a little slack?" (I just made that up.)

But I do like making people laugh, even at my own expense. It seems to be something that comes naturally to me. My pastor has suggested that I do some literary writing. I dunno...