Here we go again: "No amps on stage"

[vaughn4380]

Every six months or so our Worship Leader gets a bug in his rear and decides that the guitar amps on stage are the root of all evil and all problems in the world could be solved if we just bought more Line 6 stuff (I mean Lincoln uses it so it HAS to be the best in the world right).

Last time we tried some Line 6 shuttle control module and it was a very frustrating experience, I am not a tweaker and the number of knobs and the amount of time required to get a decent tone was irritating, and in the end the entire worship band (including the worship leader) admitted my amp still sounded better. And don't get me started on running my standard pedal board into the Line 6 thing.

Well yesterday the leader emails me asking me to start using a Tech 21 Liverpool in place of my amp. Appearantly one of the younger guys in the church let him borrow one and he says it sounds awesome and there is no need for amps anymore.

Well gee, glad he learned how to play guitar overnight and are now an expert on tone.

I am currently running a Dr. Z Carmen Ghia with the volume around 7 o'clock. This is an 18 watt amp and at 7 o'clock the sound is very low while staying warm and clean. I have the amp a foot in front of me, on it's back pointed directly at my head. Since the volume is so low I use pedals for OD, currently an OCD and a Maxon OD-9 (both quality pedals). We have a Sure 57 in front of it and everything sounds good through the PA. I stand next to the choir and when they are singing full blast they drown out my amp and I have to rely on the monitors to hear myself. The amp is NOT loud and is NOT a problem. It also sounds great.

I have used this setup for a long time, I have used this setup with major bands around town, I have used this setup for musicals and theatre events, I have even used this setup in most of the finer bars in town. Never have I had a complaint about volume.

So I tried this Liverpool out yesterday in an effort to be a "team player" and compared to what I currently use, it sucks. No way to be nice about it. It sounded OK using it in a clean setting, but as soon as I hit one of my OD pedals the thing sounded buzzy and thin. An hour of tweaking later and we didn't have any better results. Other band members who know nothing about tone (like the drummer ) started to comment on how my other amp sounds better.

So I got to be the bad guy and refuse to use the "awesome" amp simulator. My amp is one half of my instrument, if I can't use it they can feel free to replace me.

I am getting sick of amps being the target of worship leaders. I understand if you have some dolt that refuses to turn it down, but that is not all guitar players. Some of us have self control and low stage volume. I have my line in the sand and it is my amp.

Sometimes I think they just want to get rid of the amps because the "other church" in town got rid of amps and went to Line 6 stuff (I couldn't tell you if it sounds good or not because they have the guitars so low in the mix I can't even hear them). I mean seriously, what is the logic? you have 80 choir members on stage belting out as loud as possible, a full drum kit, bass amp, and 8 wedge monitors, and you single in on the 18 watt amp as the source of your trouble?

I would like to use this post to encourage all worship guitar players to insist on using the gear YOU like. Do NOT let someone force you to use bad gear just because "Lincoln uses IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Disclaimer: This post is not directed at those who currently use Line 6 or Tech 21 products and actually like them. I am happy for you, maybe your PA is better than ours. Maybe we got a bad batch of Line 6 and Tech 21 products. Seriously. I am happy for you. Please do not be offended, we are all different and have our individual preferences. My point of this post was that it should be YOUR choice to use the simulator, not a mandate by the worship leader.

[endzone]

I feel your pain, brother but....Our worship band consists of 3 keys, drums, bass, 1 acoustic guitar and 1 electric guitar. About 5 years ago, we eliminated ALL stage sound. No more amps for anyone and drums went electronic. We also, went 100% Aviom in-ear monitors for the band. Wedges are still out front for the singers. I was as reluctant as could be but tried to keep a good attitude and tried to make the best of it. I have to say that now, I wouldn't want it any other way. It is great to not have that stage noise. I'm still not very good at tweaking my Line 6 XT Live. But I've downloaded some really good patches from the Line 6 website and, over time, learned how to do some basic tweaks. And you know, that POD has some pretty good tones in it. But mostly, it's about the band and the service. We are televised, so I get to hear the music in that format and the band/music sounds much better than it used to be when we were amped. I know it's hard and I still to this day, miss playing thru my amps. But it's not about me. It's about the music and the worship. I would suggest praying about it and trying to have a good attitude. I think, like me, you will be able to at least get use to it enough to make it work. And, who knows, after some work, you might even start to like it.

[vaughn4380]

Originally Posted by endzone

But it's not about me. It's about the music and the worship.

I agree, but are we not supposed to bring our best before the Lord? Why take a step back and replace a handbuilt $1200 amp with a poor sounding $100 pedal? We are not televised, but I could see how that might change things. But I think anything that pedal can do, my amp can do with the low volume I use, no matter what it has to get to the sound board, be it mic or direct out.

Originally Posted by endzone

I think, like me, you will be able to at least get use to it enough to make it work. And, who knows, after some work, you might even start to like it.

Not gonna happen. I already told the Worship leader to look for another player should he insist on eliminating my amp. I worked on my sound already, no need to start from scratch.

Be honest with me, do you really enjoy playing on a dead silent stage? Are you able to get into the worship as much as before? We are contantly talking about expressing our feelings in what we play and that has to be hard when there is no sound, only dead air, around you.

I know other musicians that when asked this question, can't lie to me, they all prefer how it "used to be". To be honest, guitar players put ourselves in this position, collectively, over the years. We should have been standing up to those that wanted to eliminate amps from the start. Add to that the "I have to have a full stack for my TONEZ" crowd and you have a recipe to get where we are now. It is time to stand up against this. I suggest compromise, low powered amps at reasonable volume levels is a good middle ground.

And the sound levels we are talking about on our stage are comparable to a moderate car stereo. The stage volume is really quiet already.

[stevbarnes]

Could be that the liverpool just is your flavor. I use the Tech21 Blonde(fender) with my pedalboard at church and it works very well. I set it up kind of clean on the verge of breakup and leave it and it reacts well with my pedals. That being said, the tech21 pedals are not a Dr.Z and you'll never get them to sound as good that amp ,but they can do a reasonable job when needed. Another option would be micing the amp up off stage somewhere and getting it back through the monitor which might work better since you said once the choir is singing you have to rely on the monitor anyway. Good luck to you and I hope it works out.

[StootMonster]

Originally Posted by stevbarnes

Could be that the liverpool just is your flavor. I use the Tech21 Blonde(fender) with my pedalboard at church and it works very well. I set it up kind of clean on the verge of breakup and leave it and it reacts well with my pedals. That being said, the tech21 pedals are not a Dr.Z and you'll never get them to sound as good that amp ,but they can do a reasonable job when needed. Another option would be micing the amp up off stage somewhere and getting it back through the monitor which might work better since you said once the choir is singing you have to rely on the monitor anyway. Good luck to you and I hope it works out.

I was about to suggest he find himself a great pedal, as well. I use a V-Twin Mesa Boogie tube... it's a little pricey, but it's a great warm sounding pedal that can actually go straight into the board. It has a special switch just for plugging straight into the board. Mesa did their homework on this one.

[vedt]

Could you do what my church does?

1. Amps behind the stage, mic'd.
2. In-ear monitors.
3. Your problems solved.

[vaughn4380]

Originally Posted by StootMonster

I was about to suggest he find himself a great pedal, as well. I use a V-Twin Mesa Boogie tube... it's a little pricey, but it's a great warm sounding pedal that can actually go straight into the board. It has a special switch just for plugging straight into the board. Mesa did their homework on this one.

Interesting, I can't find the V-twin on the website. Do they still make it?

Still doesn't help with the stage volume as I will need to go through the monitors to hear. Seems like an expense to get the same result I have now.


ETA: I googled, it looks like they quit making it, but it is interesting, an all tube pre-amp designed to go direct to the board. I would actually give one of these an honest shot if I could find one. But I bet it sounds nothing like what I currently have.

[vaughn4380]

Originally Posted by vedt

Could you do what my church does?

1. Amps behind the stage, mic'd.
2. In-ear monitors.
3. Your problems solved.

But we have to ban the amps!

In-ears are not in the budget (unfortunately). We tried putting the amp in a seperate room once. Someone thought it was left on by mistake durring a break. Flipped it off. We didn't find out until service. All parties agreed to leave the amp on stage after that. And again, the choir is louder than the amp on stage. I already have to pump it through the monitors to hear it, so eliminating the amp from the physical presence of the stage will do no good.

I really do not understand all of the deisres to remove the amp from the stage. The volume is so low already.

[bigbandtele]

Originally Posted by vaughn4380

I have used this setup for a long time, I have used this setup with major bands around town, I have used this setup for musicals and theatre events, I have even used this setup in most of the finer bars in town. Never have I had a complaint about volume.

...

So I got to be the bad guy and refuse to use the "awesome" amp simulator. My amp is one half of my instrument, if I can't use it they can feel free to replace me.

...

I am getting sick of amps being the target of worship leaders. I understand if you have some dolt that refuses to turn it down, but that is not all guitar players. Some of us have self control and low stage volume. I have my line in the sand and it is my amp.

I agree with standing up for yourself. I really dislike when people try to "fix" something that isn't broken.

There are other places to play, other ways to serve.

[vaughn4380]

Originally Posted by bigbandtele

I agree with standing up for yourself. I really dislike when people try to "fix" something that isn't broken.

There are other places to play, other ways to serve.

He started to backpedal after I suggested finding another player. I hated to do it, but I really was getting tired of it. And everytime he does this it detracts from rehearsal time and really puts me in a bad mood.

[SngleCoil]

I think "bringing your best" has more to do with your heart than your equipment, bro, but I definitely empathize with you. I am a dyed-in-the-wool tube amp guy. But we HAD to do something about our stage volume for the benefit of our congregation...I must be one of those dolts that refuses to turn the amp down

We put everyone on in-ears, shielded the drummer, ran the bass direct, and tried a couple of things for us guitar prima donnas. I tried a PODxt, but like you with the Tech 21 thing, just couldn't get anything that was close to being comparable to my amp tone and feel. So we bought a couple of iso-cabs. Not perfect, but better.

Here's the truly ironic thing...even though I have the iso-cabs available and can play my amp rig, you know what I choose to play these days? The new POD HD stuff...I'm blown away by it. Yes, we have a very nice PA and monitoring system. Yes, we have a very good sound guy that can EQ the in-ears. I know I'm in the minority, but our in-ear mixes are so good that I would not choose to go back to a "live" stage at this point.

But vaughn4380, you up a good point in all of this. How you are set up with monitoring makes all the difference in the world. In-ears with individual mixes is one thing. Wedges on a shared mix is another...very difficult.

[Birdmankustomz]

Bring a Marshall stack in for a few sessions, then when your bring the Z back nobody will mind

[vaughn4380]

Originally Posted by SngleCoil

But we HAD to do something about our stage volume for the benefit of our congregation...I must be one of those dolts that refuses to turn the amp down

I am having trouble comprehending this, if voices are louder than your guitar amp, how is it too loud?

What amp were you using? I can't imagine a situation where the amp just had to be loud. What do the singers do? Do they even hear the instruments on stage? And if you have a choir on stage, you are going to have stage volume, this idea of a "silent stage" is odd unless nobody sings in the church.

[vaughn4380]

Originally Posted by Birdmankustomz

Bring a Marshall stack in for a few sessions, then when your bring the Z back nobody will mind

You, I like how you think.

[sonserve]

Man! That is a ridiculous situation.
By the way, I like my Line6 XT-live alot, but I bet I would like your amp better. For some things that is.

[Tim Armstrong]

When I've run into this mindset, I tell them that my amp IS a monitor. It's mic-ed and the folks out front hear what the mic is feeding to the PA system, but at the volume level I'm using, it's just functioning as an on-stage guitar monitor.

Tim

[dantonel]

I made one of these for a church I used to go to and the guy had a MadCat turned up to 10 o'clock with no bleed.

http://www.amptone.com/diyisobox.htm

[SngleCoil]

Originally Posted by vaughn4380

I am having trouble comprehending this, if voices are louder than your guitar amp, how is it too loud?

What amp were you using? I can't imagine a situation where the amp just had to be loud. What do the singers do? Do they even hear the instruments on stage? And if you have a choir on stage, you are going to have stage volume, this idea of a "silent stage" is odd unless nobody sings in the church.

I have played a variety of amps, from multiple Fenders - Hot Rod Deluxe, Deluxe Reverb, Blues Jr to Dr. Z Maz Jr, Egnater Tweaker, Genz-benz Black Perl, down to a little 5 watt DIY amp I made. Yeah, you can turn them down and all of them are completely usable, but, there is a sweet spot with every single one of those amps that you just have to turn up to hit.

Our biggest problem was the drummer in my rotation, though. Young and very energetic (read heavy handed)...but unbelievably talented. Turning up the amps was more about hearing ourselves over the drums than even a tonal thing. We would regularly top 100 dB on the meter in services...in the back of the room. The poor people in the first few rows were getting pummeled. And for the sound guy trying to mix over the drums...impossible.

Look it is not about totally eliminating all sound coming from the stage. It is about giving the sound guy control over the mix without having to fight what is coming off the stage and allowing him or her to mix to a level that is comfortable for your congregation. Hey, we are still loud because most of our congregation actually prefers it...the difference is that loudness is controlled at the mixing board, not by 8-9 musicians on stage.

You may have very valid, logical points about the monitors being louder than your actual amp. Worship pastors trying to tackle the stage volume issue have to understand that it is a complex issue that isn't simply solved by removing amps for the stage. Most places can't make the jump overnight, though. I honestly think there is a part of the "quiet stage" learning curve where no one is happy, but sometimes you just have to suck it up and go through it. As usual, Tim is all over it. If you explain it to you worship leader just like Tim described, that's about the best you can do. But you have to remember that your worship leader has been placed over you. Like it or not, part of that service thing is submitting to those higher than you...even when you know you are right ...you know, part of that whole persevering and refining thing that we all go through.

[allen st. john]

Um, who's Lincoln?

[vaughn4380]

Originally Posted by allen st. john

Um, who's Lincoln?

Lincoln Brewster, a pretty cool shred guitarist who also does P&W songs.

He also happens to use Line 6 products, which in turn makes every worship leader think their guitarist would sound just like him if they just buy the same pedal board he uses.

While he is very good, he is not my style.