Here we go again: "No amps on stage"

[jb12string]

Originally Posted by vaughn4380

Yep, you are right, I have heard this a lot lately from those who are close to me. I ask them if "making it work" is what God wants and they refuse to answer my question. Again, I have a low powered amp that sounds better and is overpowered by the choir. I have tried to talk to the WL about this to no avail. All in the band think the pedal sounds worse than my amp. But hey, let's blame the guitarist for not following God's will and questioning the WL.

I also know several musicians that refuse to play in churches because of similar experiences. Guys who have toured with somewhat big names and pay their rent by playing five nights a week. To tell them "how it's going to be" is wrong of the church and belittling their experience. Almost like the church is better than the pros who play for a living. I am now on the same list as them.

I'll answer that. In my view, yes. If you want to know why I think that, PM me and I'll share, my answer may run a little close to forum rules to post here.

Originally Posted by Nub

I don't think anybody in this thread has said that, except you. I do know, though, that having a servant's heart is about putting others first, not ourselves... It's not about getting our way, it's about how we respond when we don't get our way. Does God's will for you hinge on whether you use your amp or a modeling pedal, or does it hinge on whether you respond with a servant's heart even when (especially when!) those you're dealing with are being total butt-heads? At the end of my life, I would hate to think I'm going to be judged on whether I used a Tech 21 pedal or not...

^ This too.

[vaughn4380]

Originally Posted by Nub

I don't think anybody in this thread has said that, except you. I do know, though, that having a servant's heart is about putting others first, not ourselves... :

It has been inferred by some in this thread. It has also been flat out told to me by others in the church.

And if serving God is about others, how come the guitar players are always the one being told to give up the amp? Shouldn't the WL put others first?

[vaughn4380]

Originally Posted by Nub

At the end of my life, I would hate to think I'm going to be judged on whether I used a Tech 21 pedal or not...

You won't, you will be asked if you were honest and stood up for what is right. In your case, you don't mind going ampless so you will have no problem.

However, if I lie and say the Tech 21 sounds "awesome", "better than my old amp", or that I am even happy with it, I would be a liar as none of these statements are true. I don't even think the pedal is a reasonable substitute.

All of these things have been said by the WL in the face of the rest of the band telling him he is wrong. So he is a liar. A liar that won't even discuss the issue as he doesn't care, he just wants my amp gone. The congregation doesn't care what the guitar sounds like, and nobody cares what I think. Not exactly a situation I wish to continue playing in.

In essence, the issue is bigger than the pedal, like I said in another post, this is now a control issue.

[vaughn4380]

Now see, this is were honesty and integrity comes in to play. The whole band just got an email from the WL. It seems he just bought an in-ear system (not sure of the brand), it will be set up and running this weekend. We are expected to stop by guitar center and buy a $500 pair of studio quality headphones to wear while we play, he listed the specific model and all others are not allowed. In-ears are also banned as they don't "have the frequency range we need".

ALL MONITORS WILL BE REMOVED FROM STAGE.

Now it makes sense why he has been crusading against even a small amp. Why couldn't he just say this in the beginning? That would have been a productive conversation. But instead we just make decisions without talking to the band. And $500 is a bit steep, I know some members don't have that sitting around and probably will have to put these things on a credit card (if they are willing to buy at all).

I wonder how weird we are going to look wearing these stupid headphones while playing? We are not allowed to sit on stage as the WL feels it detracts from the "spirit" of the service, so we will be standing with studio headphones on and tethered to something with the chord. And what will the choir listen to?

Since I am still quitting, I will just borrow a pair from a buddy for a few weeks.

[Ash Telecaster]

Our worship team went to the in-ear monitors. I couldn't stand the ear buds and bought myself some headphones. I got some small silver Koss ones that actually worked great. They had good bass response which is missing in the ear buds and they had a good high end sizzle too. They are small enough and don't look outlandish.

While I prefer to use amps and monitors we are spread far apart and it was a practical solution in that case. I would have prefered to have us all packed in a corner like a real band but it's really not about the band so we pretty much just go along with whatever.

I play in bands outside of church so it's just service to me.

I also picked up a Digitech RP50 for $50 and run it straight into the board. The provided patches are total garbage but I found with a little work I could get some really nice sounds out of it.

It's also nice in that because it's only a $50 investment I have no problem just leaving it there. Not that I would expect it to get stolen but if it was more valuable or it was my amp I would have to deal with lugging it around. It's much nicer to just plug in and go.

[mrmorrison]

Originally Posted by vaughn4380

Now see, this is were honesty and integrity comes in to play. The whole bad just got an email from the WL. It seems he just bought an in-ear system (not sure of the brand), it will be set up and running this weekend. We are expected to stop by guitar center and buy a $500 pair of studio quality headphones to wear while we play, he listed the specific model and all others are not allowed. In-ears are also banned as they don't "have the frequency range we need".

ALL MONITORS WILL BE REMOVED FROM STAGE.

Now it makes sense why he has been crusading against even a small amp. Why couldn't he just say this in the beginning? That would have been a productive conversation. But instead we just make decisions without talking to the band. And $500 is a bit steep, I know some members don't have that sitting around and probably will have to put these things on a credit card (if they are willing to buy at all).

I wonder how weird we are going to look wearing these stupid headphones while playing? We are not allowed to sit on stage as the WL feels it detracts from the "spirit" of the service, so we will be standing with studio headphones on and tethered to something with the chord. And what will the choir listen to?

Since I am still quitting, I will just borrow a pair from a buddy for a few weeks.

Wow, this WL sounds like he doesn't care about anyone's needs aside from his own. $500 is a large chunk of change to many people. I would just make the resignment immediate.

[Ash Telecaster]

I will gladly dedicate time and resources to my church but it is a mistake to ask people to buy $500 headphones. It would even be a mistake if the church paid for them as it would be a terrible waste of church resources.

This WL sounds like he was born and raised in a completely isolated mountain top monastery where people have no concept of money.

The in ear monitors are practical and sound ok but they are not exactly high fidelity so what would be the point of using high end headphones?

[black_doug]

Who knows where this comes from?

At one point last year we all went to in-ear monitors, too, by decree. I had to buy a pair out-of-pocket. I got a pair from Sony for about $120. That lasted about six weeks. We don't use that system anymore. Now we're back to stage monitors and amps. We also found a quieter drummer.

But $500 is too much, IMHO.

[Tim Armstrong]

Power tripping "worship leaders" do so much more harm than good.

Tim

[SngleCoil]

Vaughn4380...the situation sounds very toxic regardless of who's right or who's wrong (and it's not my place to make a judgment so please don't think that I am) I think it is safe to say from reading through all of this that there is little chance for you to focus on the worship part of worship service playing with circumstances and emotions running the way that they are in that church. Maybe it really is that you are not meant to play there.

I don't know if this is the only church experience you've had, but I wanted to say that there are a lot of us who are very fortunate to play in places where there is a tremendous level of love, respect, and open communication between musicians, leaders, and pastors. If you have any desire whatsoever to serve with your musical gift, I hope this hasn't completely poisoned you from service in another place.

The whole quite stage thing is such a good topic, though, because so many churches are struggling with if/how to do it...and it seems to be a contentious subject for any place that attempts it, not just your current church.

[mrothe]

Originally Posted by vaughn4380

Now see, this is were honesty and integrity comes in to play. The whole bad just got an email from the WL. It seems he just bought an in-ear system (not sure of the brand), it will be set up and running this weekend. We are expected to stop by guitar center and buy a $500 pair of studio quality headphones to wear while we play, ...

ALL MONITORS WILL BE REMOVED FROM STAGE.

Now it makes sense why he has been crusading against even a small amp. Why couldn't he just say this in the beginning? That would have been a productive conversation. But instead we just make decisions without talking to the band. And $500 is a bit steep, ...

Since I am still quitting, I will just borrow a pair from a buddy for a few weeks.

It's admirable that you're staying on for a few weeks, really, in the face of all that has transpired with your team. To me, it sounds like this is about way more than choice of gear. It sounds like there are major boundary issues between the WL and the rest of the team. In a church or anywhere else, one person making a decision like that without the rest of the band is not cool.

From what I'm reading in your posts,it seems there is no possiblility of reasoning or negotiating with the WL, so it's probably best that you distance yourself from this person. I'm very sorry for you and your team that this isn't working out, especially in the setting of a church.

[TxTeleMan]

I don't think there's anything for you to do except move on, and to be sure and tell the pastor exactly why you're moving on.

Telling you that only one specific$120 pedal/amp emulator you have to play through is bad enough, and making you purchase one specific $500 headset is just absurd.

I had to leave a church worship team due to ridiculous actions of the leaders, and I was very specific to the pastor as to why. It didn't change their mind in the short term, but it did provide food for thought (and change) in the long term.

Sometimes, situations become unworkable, mostly due to inflexibility on the part of one or both parties.

[vaughn4380]

It appears some of the band members are meeting with the head pastor Friday. I have been invited and will probably go. I guess this is a bigger problem than I realized, and my "run in" with the WL is just the last straw for a few members. Others have been having trouble with odd demands and unreasonable requests. Whenever questions have come up the old "don't you trust...." line is used. I wasn't aware of the others' problems since no one wanted to "gossip" with other members.

Sorry to vent so much on the forum, when I started the thread I figured it would be more of a "stand your ground" thread about using amps in a live setting.

And for the record, had I been approached about eliminating monitors, I would have tried a little harder to eliminate the amp. At the time it made no sense when we were just going to pump more of me through the monitors.

Thanks to all for your input. It has been helpful.

[pjackson92]

Dude something like this happened to me. The youth pastor and worship pastor both wanted to control the youth band. Well lets just say that after my parents went to the meeting, left and they still ended up bad mouthing me and all this other crap. The point is, is that ALOT of of leaders in the church are power hungry people. They will stop at nothing to get complete control. Moral of the story is that you sound like your right in your thoughts and the WL is a complete power hungry mogrel.

p.s. Its been over two years and they are still badmouthing me

[jb12string]

Originally Posted by vaughn4380

And if serving God is about others, how come the guitar players are always the one being told to give up the amp? Shouldn't the WL put others first?

In a perfect world, yes, however, if the WL doesn't it doesn't absolve us of the responsibility to continue to put others first.

Originally Posted by vaughn4380

Now see, this is were honesty and integrity comes in to play. The whole band just got an email from the WL. It seems he just bought an in-ear system (not sure of the brand), it will be set up and running this weekend. We are expected to stop by guitar center and buy a $500 pair of studio quality headphones to wear while we play, he listed the specific model and all others are not allowed. In-ears are also banned as they don't "have the frequency range we need".

ALL MONITORS WILL BE REMOVED FROM STAGE.

Now it makes sense why he has been crusading against even a small amp. Why couldn't he just say this in the beginning? That would have been a productive conversation. But instead we just make decisions without talking to the band. And $500 is a bit steep, I know some members don't have that sitting around and probably will have to put these things on a credit card (if they are willing to buy at all).

I wonder how weird we are going to look wearing these stupid headphones while playing? We are not allowed to sit on stage as the WL feels it detracts from the "spirit" of the service, so we will be standing with studio headphones on and tethered to something with the chord. And what will the choir listen to?

Since I am still quitting, I will just borrow a pair from a buddy for a few weeks.

You are right, this does bring the whole situation into perspective. It would appear that your WL is an incompetent communicator or has some serious other issues. $500 for a set of HP's is crazy. Where are your audio guys in all this? Seriously, especially now since you are going to meet with your head pastor, I'd recommend the church get in contact with a good audio consultant and have them go over things with the church. It sounds like the WL is looking at catalogs and just buying stuff based on hype and not much thought.

BTW, I somehow forgot in all of this that you were required to use a liverpool, that is just crazy too, I understand the principle behind going to a quiet stage, but you should at least let your guitar players pick what they are going to use to replace an amp,

[Nub]

Originally Posted by vaughn4380

And if serving God is about others, how come the guitar players are always the one being told to give up the amp?

Maybe because guitar players have a history of being the biggest culprits in the volume wars, along with drummers? Even now, when we have a volume issue on stage, 9 times out of 10 it's either my guitar or the drummer hitting too hard... or both. It really sucks when I have to reprimand myself!

Originally Posted by vaughn4380

Shouldn't the WL put others first?

No doubt, he should... it sounds like he has some real problems, and shouldn't be in leadership (I played with a WL like that for 2 years, and it was a frustrating experience that I didn't always handle well). But I've learned that someone else's lack of character is never a justification for us to respond poorly... that's part of the test! Also, as a leader, "putting others first" doesn't mean that you let the folks on your team always have their way, but it does mean that you strive to always handle things with grace... even when you have to put your foot down. For me, easy to say, but tough to do!

Edited to add: While I was typing the above, you posted that some of the team members are meeting with the pastor... very good move. Hopefully, he'll work quickly to resolve the situation.

[vaughn4380]

Originally Posted by jb12string

You are right, this does bring the whole situation into perspective. It would appear that your WL is an incompetent communicator or has some serious other issues. $500 for a set of HP's is crazy. Where are your audio guys in all this? Seriously, especially now since you are going to meet with your head pastor, I'd recommend the church get in contact with a good audio consultant and have them go over things with the church. It sounds like the WL is looking at catalogs and just buying stuff based on hype and not much thought. He most likely is, or even buying what other churches in the area have. I haven't talked to the sound guys in a while, I know they have always hated the amps but they would still work with me to mic them up. They are volunteers (like the band), it might be beneficial to talk to them pending the outcome of Friday's meeting.

BTW, I somehow forgot in all of this that you were required to use a liverpool, that is just crazy too, I understand the principle behind going to a quiet stage, but you should at least let your guitar players pick what they are going to use to replace an amp, Partly my fault, when the Line 6 stuff was a bust I mentioned that I would prefer a simple emulator that resembled some type of Vox amp. A buddy of his had this Liverpool pedal that we tried out and now the WL is set on it. In hind site the line 6 may have been better. Again, had the WL been willing to talk, I know there are other options we could have tried, like the Palmer speaker emulator that you run your own amp into, or the Mesa Boogie preamp mentioned above.

My comments in red. The palmer looks interesting, you get your own amp sound without a speaker, and run the signal to the board. For a "silent stage" it may be the best of both worlds.

[vaughn4380]

Originally Posted by Nub

Edited to add: While I was typing the above, you posted that some of the team members are meeting with the pastor... very good move. Hopefully, he'll work quickly to resolve the situation.

Until today, I thought I was the only one having trouble "communicating" with the WL. I was dead wrong. The rest of the band members didn't want to gossip so they held their tongues about their own issues. But the sum of everything has added up to a serious problem.

I won't post to many details, but for example, the drummer has been requested to buy an electronic drum set some time ago. None of us knew about the request as he didn't want to contribute to bad feelings within the group. He doesn't have the money (in addition to the $500 headphones) but comments have been made about his commitment to the program. He has over 35 years of experience, and one heck of an acoustic set that he has used for most of it. We are talking pro level touring set that Neal Pert would probably enjoy. Why question his commitment?

I am surprised he hasn't quit, have you priced an electronic set recently? It would be cheaper to buy a plastic cage for him and allow him to use his own set. But that is not what the WL wants.

[ChickenKiller]

Vaughn I feel for ya dude. Like I said earlier, I think so many churches are chasing after the latest 'thing' they see another church doing. There are so many WL that have NO concept of tone, equipment etc.... and they all wanna be straight up cover artists NO "adding to allowed" . . .

I am with ya bro! I am ALL for having an amp with a Mic hanging or propped up in front of it on stage. . . But this "pretty boy" religion that is taking over in our churches goes more for what it "looks like" other than what it sounds like . . makes me wanna puke.

I was at a BIG church "Nationally known" a few months ago. One guitar player had a hot Gretsch, the other had a Nashville Pickup style Tele, and the acoustic player was using a Taylor. . . All I could hear were the Voices, Drums, and Keys. ONCE in a while at the beginning of a "guitar driven" song I would hear A guitar kick it off. . . but other than that Seriously NOTHING from the guitars.

As I was sitting there by my WL, I told her. . . If they had my guitar turned down that low, I would NOT play. . . Thank God SHE AGREED with me!

Good luck Bro! I understand you just want to sound your best for Worship.

[SngleCoil]

If things work out where you decide to stick it out and you do go to a in-ear/headphone monitoring solution, I'd try that amp miced in a separate room idea out again. Yeah, the Palmer looks interesting, but it's not cheap either and if you have a room available where you can mic up your amp and be done with it...well, I'd lobby pretty hard for that option. Seems like a win-win and people can be trained to stay out of the amp room!

BTW...For in-ears, I use a pair of old Sure E2s that were around $100 new. They are adequate. I'd like a pair that picked up a little more of the bass and kick, but they are paid for, and overall, they are ok for a good balanced mix. We have a couple of people that, while admittedly look pretty goofy, really like the sound of those big over the ear "cans". $500 is asking a lot, though. Hey, some people get pretty good results from relatively inexpensive consumer ear buds. I personally find that they don't work well with our system. It requires something with a much flatter response. If you have a pair laying around, though, doesn't hurt to try them out.