We are considering closing the Worship Players Forum

[Mike Simpson]

Perhaps the WSP forum could be detached from the "Today on TDPRI" search link and possibly have a seperate password to access it. I feel that is where many people "stumble" into the WSP forum. I know that has happened to me a number of times and a few times I have been very surprised at the content that was allowed in this forum.

Another option might be to set it up as a seperate forum like the other sister forums. If there is not enough ad revenue to support it as a stand alone then the members could hold a raffle or make voluntary donations to fund the expense of a seperate forum and some of the outspoken members of the WSP forum could volunteer their time to moderate it as well.

Other Websites
Strat-Talk.com
Gretsch-Talk.com
Gibson-Talk.com
Squier-Talk.com

I am amazed at the lack of understanding and intolerance of groups that professes to be "religious" both here and elsewhere.

Thanks to Paul and the moderators for all you do to keep the TDPRI a good place to be a member of.

Group hug?

[jaygerr]

Originally Posted by mralmostpopular

I feel like some people are annoyed not by the posts that are in this forum, but rather by our mere presence here. This makes it a moderating nightmare at times because they not only complain about the forum, but some of them come in here to troll.

Here's my question to the moderators, then, "Is the situation that there are trolls that are inundating the mods and taking up too much time with frivolous things or are their complaints actually valid ones?"

Big Mike Simpson, I'd be willing to hug it out.

[jazztele]

Some larger forums have dedicated moderators to each subforum...is there a way you can take on another mod--somebody trustworthy whose sole job could be to keep this place clean and civil?

[nvilletele]

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

I think you're being a bit unreasonable, if you find the Worship Players Forum personally offensive, it's a simple thing to NOT read it.

Tim

Originally Posted by jaygerr

Thank you, Tim, for being the voice of reason. There are places that I know will offend me, I simply don't go there. Looking at the name of the forum, it's kind of obvious what the content will be.

If we follow the logic that it is OK to have a forum here where some can post things that are found to be personally offensive (whether by some or many), on the basis that those likely to be offended should avoid the forum, does that mean that there should also be an atheist player's forum, or devil worshiper player's forum, or sex fiend player's forum, or political player's forum? Wouldn't the same logic apply, that those who are likely to be offended by the topics can simply avoid reading those forums?

Or should there be a special exception from the rules only for worship players, such that in this forum religious discussion is to be permitted?

I realize that most of the posts in this thread are not suggesting that it should be OK to engage in non-permitted religious discussions simply because it occurs in this forum. But for those who say persons likely to be offended should just stay out of this forum because it might offend you, isn't that tantamount to saying that it's OK to engage in religious discussions here? Otherwise, what would those people be offended by, giving rise to the suggestion that they avoid offense by simply staying away?

The issue should not be whether people can avoid being offended by staying away. The issue should be whether offensive things are being posted. Heck, the logical extension of this is that we could all avoid all offensive posts by never coming back to the TDPRI ever again . . . and I don't think anyone is suggesting that.

Following the rules shouldn't be that hard for people. If they can't play nice, they shouldn't be allowed in the playground. Sometimes, though, it's necessary to remove a toy or piece of equipment if it's causing fights among the kids. I'll defer to the mods as to which approach they want to apply here.

[mralmostpopular]

Originally Posted by jaygerr

Here's my question to the moderators, then, "Is the situation that there are trolls that are inundating the mods and taking up too much time with frivolous things or are their complaints actually valid ones?"

I would guess it falls somewhere in between. Like I said earlier, I support Paul's decision to remove the thread that set off this discussion. It wasn't offensive, but it was pushing the limits of what is allowed to be discussed on the forum. It was kind of testimony/profession of faith. The OP was just very excited about some things that were happening in his life musically and wanted to share it. Unfortunately, it set off some disrespectful comments from people who don't normally post in this forum. It quickly became a mess, which is why the forum rules are in place to begin with. I'd say that he felt attacked (he kind of was), and when Paul removed the thread, it appeared to him as if Paul was siding with the attackers. The reality is that Paul was just trying to keep things civil and wasn't taking sides in any kind of religious debate.

[jaygerr]

Ok. Now, I have a much better understanding of where this all came from and the frustration involved. That's a tough call.

[Tim Armstrong]

Originally Posted by mralmostpopular

Tim, you're the only mod (other than Paul, of course) that I see even remotely contributing to this discussion. Does this mean that the other mods are completely uninterested in/indifferent to this forum?

If you're the only one policing here (again, other than Paul), I can see why it's been especially taxing.

I can't speak directly for the other mods, but I'd say it's almost certainly true that we as a group don't spend a lot of time on this particular forum. I've made a few posts, responding to threads that I notice in the "New Posts" search, but I'm not a church player (heck, I'm a quasi-Buddhist who doesn't go to church!). I've seen posts by Getbent, too.

As I've already mentioned previously, we don't generally spend our time in an active search for trouble, here or in any of the other forums. Rather, we depend on the TDPRI to be mostly self-policing, counting on our rather excellent membership to let us know when trouble is brewing. I laugh and shake my head in disbelief when the occasional sorehead proclaims the TDPRI to be a "police state" or "moderated with a heavy hand", as I know from both my experiences here and elsewhere how light the touch actually is, only heavy enough to keep things civil.

I'd also note that it's VERY hard for someone who doesn't spend all of their time online to have any idea how much or little moderating we do. We remove posts and threads that break the rules whenever we either stumble across them or they're reported to us, and while that's not a statistically huge number, I reckon the tone of the TDPRI would be a whole lot less friendly if we left it all in.

The Worship Service Players forum was established for the same reason the Amp forum, the Bass forum, the Pedal forum, the Twanger Central forum, etc. were established, it's an area of specific interest different enough from live performance in concert or bar venues to merit it's own area, and further it's a topic that can be polarizing both to folks from different sects and folks who are non- or anti- religion.

But the Worship Service Players forum has never been meant for theological discussion. The TDPRI has never allowed sex, drug, political, religion or hate discussion, and the rule posted right at the top of THIS forum says "No religious theology discussion, just guitar & playing performance discussion."

Tim

[mralmostpopular]

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

As I've already mentioned previously, we don't generally spend our time in an active search for trouble, here or in any of the other forums. Rather, we depend on the TDPRI to be mostly self-policing, counting on our rather excellent membership to let us know when trouble is brewing. I laugh and shake my head in disbelief when the occasional sorehead proclaims the TDPRI to be a "police state" or "moderated with a heavy hand", as I know from both my experiences here and elsewhere how light the touch actually is, only heavy enough to keep things civil.

Nah, I never thought it was a police state. I probably should've used a different word than "policing." I know that the site isn't heavily moderated, and it's great that for the most part, it doesn't need to be. You guys are volunteers and you're not sitting at your computer 24/7. That is also likely a contributing factor to what sometimes occurs in this forum (and in other forums on the site as well). Mostly, I just find it very odd that in a discussion about taking away part of this site, you're the only moderator who seems to be contributing to the discussion.

[Ronsonic]

Originally Posted by mralmostpopular

I feel like some people are annoyed not by the posts that are in this forum, but rather by our mere presence here. This makes it a moderating nightmare at times because they not only complain about the forum, but some of them come in here to troll.

Why do people who have no reason to be in this forum care what is said?

Are these wannabe hall monitors?

Simple bigots?

More importantly, why would a moderator allow himself to be manipulated by such people?

There are people with church gigs. They hang in this forum and talk about their work. How hard is that to ignore. Sometimes they talk about how they got into it and what motivates them. Is our motivation more offensive than that of the guy who plays to impress girls, or other guys for that matter? Is it wrong to talk about that? I don't think so.

I can sure understand someone not being interested in reading it. I don't understand hostility toward it and completely do not get clothing that hostility in the pretense that the discussion is somehow "offensive."

It makes no more sense than screaming that Les Paul content is offensive and should be banned in a Tele forum.

[donh]

Originally Posted by TDPRI

People violate our rules and wishes for this forum all the time. The mods and I have discussed the appropriate action and we are pretty sure that the members here will not ever follow the rules.

It looks to me that you have here a no-win. Ask yourself if it will be easier on you and the other admins and mods to have the forum stay or be gone, and act appropriately.

Best of luck/skill to you all!

[jaygerr]

Originally Posted by donh

It looks to me that you have here a no-win. Ask yourself if it will be easier on you and the other admins and mods to have the forum stay or be gone, and act appropriately.

Best of luck/skill to you all!

I really hope that they keep the forum, but I realize that the primary intent was to be a site devoted to the Telecaster. Whatever the mods decide, I'll respect and I'll still be a patron of the site. My beliefs will still be the same. They're in an impossible situation and no matter what they decide, they're going to look like a villain to someone. The forum did help attract me to the site, but I kind of view the WPF as a pleasant bonus that happened to be here. Having said that, does anyone know of a good online forum devoted to worship players and/or Christian musicians that they can private message me a link to?

[fretbuzzard]

A couple of points have arisen a number of times:

1. Players at religious services face unique challenges, and this forum makes it possible to address them by creating an exception to the TDPRI rules.
2. There are players for whom their faith is an element of their life that suffuses all that they do, so to eliminate this forum is tantamount to a kind of discrimination.

Both may be valid points. But, as has been mentioned, they are equally valid if we replace "religious services" with "political rallies" and "faith" with "political views." There are players who face unique challenges because they play political music, and whose politics are an integral part of who they are. But I think we can all agree that a separate forum within TDPRI for political players would be a nightmare for the mods. This doesn't mean that TDPRI doesn't welcome political players, just that such players are expected to have the subtlety and courtesy to check their politics at the door. When they fail to do so, they are moderated. And that is the issue: not alienating players of faith, but closing a loophole that is creating a lot of trouble. I believe the admin/mods when they say that this forum has become problematic--I have no reason to disbelieve them--so I support closing this forum if it means that their efforts can be more constructively focused on other elements of the site. Peace...

[w3stie]

I play in church, and I've posted in that forum, although not often. I've played in regular bands (misfits really) and they're very different, so the forum serves a good purpose. Not least, all the worship-type topics would start popping up in the other forums. They won't go to other boards, TDPRI is too big. We've even heard of it down under! I guess you guys see the big picture, but it'd be a pity to lose it.

I vote keep it and just ban offenders.

[mralmostpopular]

Originally Posted by fretbuzzard

A couple of points have arisen a number of times:

1. Players at religious services face unique challenges, and this forum makes it possible to address them by creating an exception to the TDPRI rules.

No, it doesn't make an exception to the rules. Nobody is suggesting that it does. A few people have said that perhaps we should just get rid of the rules altogether, but nobody is asking for special treatment.

Originally Posted by fretbuzzard

2. There are players for whom their faith is an element of their life that suffuses all that they do, so to eliminate this forum is tantamount to a kind of discrimination.

Nobody is making this argument.

Originally Posted by fretbuzzard

Both may be valid points. But, as has been mentioned, they are equally valid if we replace "religious services" with "political rallies" and "faith" with "political views." There are players who face unique challenges because they play political music, and whose politics are an integral part of who they are.

First and foremost, religious services and political rallies are not the same thing. While a person playing a political rally might face unique challenges for that event, it ultimately ends up being just like most other gigs. You're not going to have someone in the audience being offended because you played a guitar lick a certain way at a political rally. Now, if someone brought up in a forum that they would be playing a rally for a liberal cause and are wondering if they should play a song that is overtly conservative, I would not be against it. They aren't bringing up the political aspect as the center of the thread, but as the background reasoning for why they need advice. Anyone who has had experience in politics (pretty much everyone) could contribute. However, the amount of times that a topic like that would come up is likely very small, and would not require a separate forum based on that alone.

[bruce123]

Originally Posted by Batman

So we won't talk about something in case we argue about it?

Surely a better policy is just to agree to disagree whenever we do. I have many friends with wildly different views on a wide range of subjects, including our respective faiths. We still get on just fine, and respect each others beliefs but it doesn't mean we can't talk about it.

In theory I agree, but in real life< not going to happen.

[stratman323]

Originally Posted by mralmostpopular

Christians often feel extremely stifled in the world in favor of the non-religious

And vice versa. That point seems to get forgotten. I'd love to expand on that, but I guess I'm not allowed to!

It's not a "worship" or "religious" forum, it's specifically a Christian forum. And, to be more precise, it's an American Protestant forum. There weren't any Telecasters in the CofE churches I attended as a kid - us Brits don't do religious worship that way. Maybe we should, but we don't. And, as another poster said earlier, Telecasters are not commonplace in Mosques, Synagogues, Temples etc.

So does this specific branch of a specific religion need it's own sub-section of the TDRPI when all other religions have nothing? It does seem kinda hard to justify why it should, on a forum where discussion of religious issues is banned.

[sonserve]

You guys do what you need to do. I respect what you have going on here.
If it is a matter of modding maybe you could ask for help from some of the worship service players.
I dunno.
It does seem a shame to just shut it down.

And I suppose we will meet at the bad dog and try to behave?

Like I said I dunno.

[sonserve]

Originally Posted by stratman323

And vice versa. That point seems to get forgotten. I'd love to expand on that, but I guess I'm not allowed to!

It's not a "worship" or "religious" forum, it's specifically a Christian forum. And, to be more precise, it's an American Protestant forum. There weren't any Telecasters in the CofE churches I attended as a kid - us Brits don't do religious worship that way. Maybe we should, but we don't. And, as another poster said earlier, Telecasters are not commonplace in Mosques, Synagogues, Temples etc.

So does this specific branch of a specific religion need it's own sub-section of the TDRPI when all other religions have nothing? It does seem kinda hard to justify why it should, on a forum where discussion of religious issues is banned.

Well that ain't my fault. IMHO
Why would those guys care anyway. My Tele ain't knockin' nobody's beliefs and I know how to behave. IMHO
Do those other religions need a spot to post here?
No offense but all of that is a dead end street. IMHO

If you don't play in worship services why is it your concern? Please notice I have not called you names or violated any forum rules.

I don't hang out much in the stomp box but I am glad it is there for the guys who do...

My $.02.

[PeterUK]

Worship Service Players Religious service players discussion forum. Open to all religions. No religious theology discussion, just guitar & playing performance discussion.

I do play in a church / church environment and have dipped into the forum from time-to-time but have been totally exasperated by the blantant abuse of the specific rules and guidelines for this forum (read them above; they are very, very clear).

The abuse of this forum is one of the reasons why I post very little nowadays on the TDPRI.

Close it down and make the TDPRI a better place.

Peter

[zoppotrump]

to me a worship player is a musician like anybody else....so why do it in a seperate forum ? i never got it anyway. it created the impression, that these musicians are kind of exotic !!
as long there are no religious topics discussed in any way, according the forum rules, i don´t see any reason, why they should not participate in the regular forums.
to be just, you would have to create a sepreate forum for all bar-players, hobby players who don´t gig, professionals ...etc.
as somebody above said, a gig is a gig, whether it is paid or not and it doesn´t matter if it is in a church or a bar.
and i don´t consider someone automatically being too "christian" if he does worship playing.
on the other hand, i understand, that this is a very sensible topic, but i think, the existing forum rules and guidelines cover and handle it pretty well.
Keep the forum and the posts clean and everybody will get along hopefully.
just my opinion