We are considering closing the Worship Players Forum

[WilburBufferson]

In my opinion, the discussion is veering away from the decision to abolish the Worship Forum to a more generalized debate that is perilously close to the boundaries of religion. The latter is non-productive as it will forever be without resolution. In my opinion, I respectfully submit the following:

1) There's ample of opportunity elsewhere on the internet to talk about music in the religious context (as has been suggested above);
2) What i like the most about TDPRI is that people don't talk politics and music here (which I can get that from my news feeds, and well, everywhere else on the internet);
3) As a non-believer, I don't visit the Worship Forum because I t think it really doesn't apply to my experience. Importantly, I do not want to miss out on the experiences and input of musicians who post there exclusively because of where they tend to play most of their music.

I am interested in the guitar player, full stop. The context of the gig appears to me to be a secondary issue. But that's just me, in my humble opinion.

[sax4blues]

I play in my church and frequent the forum. After all is said n done there are only about four recurring questions phrased in different ways.

1) In ear monitors
2) Small amp/modeling/stage volume
3) Guitar solos
4) Who gets to play / getting paid to play

Maybe just close the forum to new threads/posts, but keep the existing threads and group them under the four topics above.

[mralmostpopular]

Originally Posted by TDPRI

I understand him... I personally find it hypocritical that someone that professes to be so devoted to their religion and its tenets but they don't have enough respect to follow our rules... and when called out respond harshly and without any remorse or concern.

Seems to shed a light on their true beliefs.

As I've already stated in two posts on this thread, sometimes it's difficult to fully understand those rules (or how they're meant to be applied). You can't simply separate faith from music when talking about worship service. It would be silly to anyway. I am aware of the thread that provoked this, and I understand why it was pulled and would fully back you up on that. I agree with keeping overtly theological discussion out in most cases. I don't think the OP of that thread meant any harm, nor was he attempting to blatantly disregard the rules. I think his response to you reflects his frustration in not understanding where the line is. If the forum does stay open, I think that the rules are going to require some clarification.

If I may be perfectly honest with you, I feel like you're being a little oversensitive about his response (assuming what you posted his full response and I'm not missing more). It was snarky and sarcastic, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. It was simply out of frustration and lack of understanding about how the rules are applied. Christians often feel extremely stifled in the world in favor of the non-religious. So I can understand where his frustration comes. I'm not condoning his response, but we're all only human, Paul. I don't think it sheds any light on his faith, more than that he had a human response.

I think this forum was a great idea, and still is. It helps keep bickering over anything remotely religious of nature in the main forums to a minimum, and helps protect those who would feel otherwise stifled and poorly treated, as well. Are there problems with the system? Yes. Perhaps the solution is to add more mods specific to the forum. I don't know. You're always going to have more work with it, I won't lie, but it has been a wonderful resource and makes those of us who do spend a lot of time with this very different type of musical job feel respected.

Originally Posted by sax4blues

I play in my church and frequent the forum. After all is said n done there are only about four recurring questions phrased in different ways.

1) In ear monitors
2) Small amp/modeling/stage volume
3) Guitar solos
4) Who gets to play / getting paid to play

Maybe just close the forum to new threads/posts, but keep the existing threads and group them under the four topics above.

Oh, I don't know man, I've seen quite a few other threads that have been of interest. I've had help selecting songs for service, and I think the P&W embarrassment thread is great.

[LuvN Guitars]

If the most often discussed topics fall into those 4 catagories as listed, then I agree they could be covered without having a "Religion" specific forum.

It's a pity that there will always be some who can't stick to the rules and unfortunately religion and politics always seem to be the forums which cause the most trouble for moderators in this regard.

[WallyArms]

I applauded the creation of the Worship Players Forum and participated regularly when it started. My participation has waned to the point that I rarely even read the posts there anymore - not to put to fine a point on it, but I simply got sick of "non-worship players" hunting for things in the Worship Players Forum to gripe to the moderators about.... and the resulting tightening of the rules in the Worship Players Forum. Might as well go ahead and close it. One of our long time members has a great Forum geared to Praise and Worship players - I'll let the moderators decide if they want to advertise Stephen's forum.

[refin]

Well...........I posted something in the past politically that was against the rules,and I was correctly warned in an email.However,one thing does concern me about "off limit" subjects on TDPRI.Please see #3.
OFF LIMIT SUBJECTS:
Some subjects cause nothing but trouble, so no posting about:
1. Politics
2. Religion
3. Sex (including improper photos or videos)
4. Drugs
5. Smoking (laws, health or anything)
6. Current Wars or national disputes
7. Gun rights or issues
8. Pirated Music or downloads
9. See below for greater detail...

I quite often read posts here (TDPRI in general,not the Worship Section) with sexual overtones--maybe the poster was rebuked as I was,but many of the posts are not removed.It is almost like that area isn't policed as strongly as the others.Just sayin'..........
I guess it would be tough to have a Worship Forum without dogma creeping in.

[LuvN Guitars]

All of the topics refin mentioned would be incredibly difficult to moderate, but as far as TDPRI is concerned Religion is the only one of those topics which has it's own specific forum here.

One of the unfortunate aspects of religion is that some people feel so strongly about their faith that they believe it is their right/duty to promote it regardless of any rules which may apply and because it is such an emotive topic, others with differing views will also believe it's their right to respond.

If there is a member here who has a "Worship" specific forum, maybe that would be an ideal venue for those who feel the need for a specialist forum of this type?

[mralmostpopular]

Originally Posted by LuvN Guitars

All of the topics refin mentioned would be incredibly difficult to moderate, but as far as TDPRI is concerned Religion is the only one of those topics which has it's own specific forum here.

One of the unfortunate aspects of religion is that some people feel so strongly about their faith that they believe it is their right/duty to promote it regardless of any rules which may apply and because it is such an emotive topic, others with differing views will also believe it's their right to respond.

If there is a member here who has a "Worship" specific forum, maybe that would be an ideal venue for those who feel the need for a specialist forum of this type?

Except that it's not specifically a religious forum (hence the rules), but rather a separate place for those who play music in this very specific type of venue. If you have never been part of it, then you likely wouldn't understand why it's so different. I don't know you or your background, so I can't judge that. The problem with having discussion about this type of "gig" in the main forum is that there will inevitably be those that want to bash players for doing this kind of work. I don't think the solution is to tell people to simply go somewhere else. That's basically sending a message that those who do this kind of work aren't welcome. "We don't like yer kind 'round her"

The separated forum isn't a perfect solution, but it allows people to still be part of this site, while speaking about their work is somewhat protected from those that would otherwise be nasty in the main forum. Most people don't even visit the Worship Service forum. Occasionally you do get some trolls that come in and have to start trouble, as was seen in the thread that was removed. I imagine that if this thread closes, that problem will only multiply when people inevitably start posting about worship services in the main forums.

Now Paul could ban that kind of discussion, but the only fair way to do it would be to ban all discussion of gigs what-so-ever. Paul doesn't HAVE to be fair, but then again, it's through donations and sponsorship that keep this site going. Part of the reason people post here is because feel that it's a relatively fair forum. I don't see that having a separate forum has been a major problem with the majority of people here because they understand that it's not worship players getting special treatment, but rather to keep things civil in the main forums.

[hotraman]

As much as I enjoy the posts in this section, lately there are a few responses to threads that are do violate the rules of this section.
There are at least 3 other websites where "worship leading" threads are encouraged.
Questions about worship leading, leadership development, and gear.
I vote to close this section of the forum.... I'm tired of people hijacking threads with comments that they think are humorous, but clearly are not.

[Teleagain]

glad to see it go...this is a guitar forum.

I never understood the need for a "Worship Players" forum, it always seemed like a back door in for the religion...there isn't a Blues Band forum or Cover Band Forum..

there are other places for the "R word"..

just my 2 cents

[nvilletele]

There have been many threads in the WPF that focus on music, playing music and certain issues faced by worship service players. There have also been numerous threads and posts that are clearly over the line, which do not discuss playing in a worship setting, but are themselves acts of worship, testimony or religious pronouncements.

While non-worship players are not forced to read such posts, sometimes one follows a thread due to an interesting title, only to find excessively religion-oriented posts. While only a very small number would fall into the category of proseltyzing, many more seem little more than assertions of the absolute correctness of the religion practiced by the poster.

Religious assertions appear not only in the content of posts, but also in signatures and avatars, and in that manner enter all the other forums in which such members post. I'm not sure it's possible to have a bible verse or psalm quote as a sig, or an evangelical symbol as an avatar, without in essence making an implied statement.

While such statements are, for good reason, permitted by the First Amendment, they are not permitted by the TDPRI rules, for good reason.

Ideally, the best result would be for the WPF posters to exercise common sense and good judgment in their posts, and thereby enable the WPF to continue. But one man's common sense/good judgment can be another's insanity, so that's why the mods are so crucial. But is it asking too much of them to try to police such a forum? I think it probably is asking too much of them, given the dogmatic content that has frequently appeared. Perhaps then the best approach is to close down the WPF, and cease discussion of such a contentious topic.

This would not, of course, mean that worship service players could not have discussions on the topic, it would only mean that, in the interests of ALL members here, they could not have them in the public setting specifically afforded by the TDPRI.

[Durtdog]

Originally Posted by hotraman

As much as I enjoy the posts in this section, lately there are a few responses to threads that are do violate the rules of this section.
There are at least 3 other websites where "worship leading" threads are encouraged.
Questions about worship leading, leadership development, and gear.
I vote to close this section of the forum.... I'm tired of people hijacking threads with comments that they think are humorous, but clearly are not.

I read posts EVERY DAY that violate EVERY rule of the entire forum, not just the worship section.

You think maybe they should just close the TDPRI altogether?

[jrich99]

Originally Posted by Durtdog

I read posts EVERY DAY that violate EVERY rule of the entire forum, not just the worship section.

You think maybe they should just close the TDPRI altogether?

+1

[ThreeChorder]

Leave it open. Warn violators. Ban repeat offenders. Turn it up and play!

[ibobunot]

Originally Posted by Durtdog

I read posts EVERY DAY that violate EVERY rule of the entire forum, not just the worship section.

You think maybe they should just close the TDPRI altogether?

I'm sure Paul has thought about it a few times.

[chrisgblues]

I too have read some of the abusive type comments on the worship forum and it's obvious there is a serious problem. It doesn't even matter 'why' at this point. I vote to close it. Thanks mods for doing a great job through all this!

[Durtdog]

Originally Posted by chrisgblues

I too have read some of the abusive type comments on the worship forum and it's obvious there is a serious problem. It doesn't even matter 'why' at this point. I vote to close it. Thanks mods for doing a great job through all this!

Again, it's EVERYWHERE, in every forum. Not just any one forum.

What makes it such a "serious problem" in the worship forum?

[mralmostpopular]

Originally Posted by chrisgblues

I too have read some of the abusive type comments on the worship forum and it's obvious there is a serious problem. It doesn't even matter 'why' at this point. I vote to close it. Thanks mods for doing a great job through all this!

The question comes up, should the forum be closed simply because there are a few violators who can't be civil? Should be ban all talk of PRS guitars? Every time I see PRS guitars mentioned, someone always has to start posting rude comments in that thread.

"Serious problem" seems a bit overstated. More than the other forums? Yes, definitely. Serious problem? Doubtful. There isn't always a problem that arises every time a "religious" based thread comes up. Scroll down and you'll see a thread where someone is asking for prayer. Everyone was respectful and it was fine.

[Jeff_K]

I have been surprised by the closed-mindedness within this very specific forum. I posted what I thought would be a fun thread about secular licks in worship songs and half the responses were from people who argued about how wrong that was. Totally put me off posting anything further. I got some great info from here but also was very frustrated by it. Frankly, I won't miss it.

[00JETT]

Ya Mods I feel for yas, Iv posted in this section a couple times when its tech related, but shake my head at some of the stuff that really has not a whole lot to do with Guitar playing... Personally I get more out of the tech sections of this forum... I come here to talk instruments..