Why most guitarist don't like the sound guy

[justin.ray]

I stopped myself from hijacking a thread about not hearing myself and thought I would start this one on a related issue that often results in guitarists not being able to hear themselves during a set.

And that problem is the broader issue of people not playing together. Everyone wants to hear themselves predominately because they like their style of music. Most of time that I've thought the worship was rubbish at a church was because the musicians were trying to do different things at the same time. The 16 year old drummer was going to town on his double bass pedal while the bassist was playing 16th notes of the same note for whole measures while the chick on the keys was playing every note of the melody with gusto while the guitarist was trying to melt everyone's face off with a solo, all on the first line of the first verse.

So here's the sound guy, way in the back of the church, going, "what on earth is going on?!" Usually, the first thing a sound guy is going to cut back is... the electric guitar! Why? Probably because the guitarist left his eq, clean boost, overdrive, distortion, volume pedal (insert other method of cutting through the mix here) exactly where it was during the built-up, awesome chorus at the end of the last song when he came in on the introspective first verse of "When the Music Fades." Sound guy turns guitar level in the mains down straight away and says, "whoa! what happened there, that's way too loud!" guitarist now can't be heard during the chorus and tweaks his amp up half way through the chorus. Second verse. Sound guy turns down guitarist again. Second chorus. Guitarist turns up amp again. Third verse. Worship leader is hacked at guitarist because his stage volume is now way to high and can't hear himself clearly.

Moral of the story, play WITH the other musicians and the sound desk. Music sounds much better (even if it isn't your style) when everyone is trying to reach the same goal. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't add some flavor to the composition. Just don't try to make a turkey dinner taste like brisket slathered in BBQ, even if you would kill to have some BBQ. I know I would.

[dalandan]

I like competent sound guys. But everything starts with a competent band that understands stage volume and how their sound affects others.

In my band, on stage, our mantra is that we have ONE sound and that when somebody is off, we're all off. It's an 8 piece ska band that needs to sound like one big unit. Most of the time, we get it right.

[telekaster1999]

All this sounds very familiar to me for some reason. I have been dealing with this problem at least 15 years. I believe a good rule of thumb would be that you should be able to comunicate to each other while you are playing. If my buddy who also plays guitar in our praise band cant hear me talk to him while we are playing then somebody is to loud. We have found that this works pretty good. PEACE.

[Parma_TeleMon]

Oddly, I had this same conversation with a couple of musicians and one of our sound guys at church tonight. We're blessed. Period. We've worked hard to play together, even though we have around 25 musicians and singers that rotate through three bands and two venues. Sometimes it seems like we need the skill set of a studio musician, but we all strive to play together, let the sound folks know what we need in the monitors and they, in turn, try to make us sound as good as possible. Mercifully, there's no strife on our teams.

[black_doug]

Justin.ray your analysis is right on the mark. The more seasoned players I love and respect often say that less is more. That's my motto now, but I wasn't always that way. But then I've been doing the worship team gig for over 25 years.

I still think we need to encourage young players - just train them up and coach them well. Maybe there's a lack of good worship leaders/pastors? Is this stuff taught in theology schools these days?

[SatelliteOrders]

j.r, you're so right. And then they wonder why the pastor and/or worship leader want to keep a quiet stage with everything through DIs and out through Avioms and such.

Of course, the down side is I stand 3 feet in front of a great choir which I never hear because of my earbuds.

[Donnie55]

Sounds like a band of monkeys trying to out do each other..Crap in crap out, try giving the sound man something he can mix...

[guitarzan13]

Originally Posted by SatelliteOrders

Of course, the down side is I stand 3 feet in front of a great choir which I never hear because of my earbuds.

I use one ear in and one out...

[SatelliteOrders]

Originally Posted by Donnie55

Sounds like a band of monkeys trying to out do each other..Crap in crap out, try giving the sound man something he can mix...

Well, yeah. Get any group of young musicians together, even the ones that put together jaw-droppingly technical Youtube vids, and it's unlikely that you'll get a bunch who have the maturity to back off and respect the song.

You might be able to scratch "young" off that previous sentence.

I'm lead guitar in my worship band, and kinda Dickey to someone's Duane in the Wednesday service. Many times, I have stopped playing because I couldn't tell if I stepped over that showboating line. That's when you know you've stopped playing guitar and started playing music.

Originally Posted by guitarzan13

I use one ear in and one out...

Avioms are stereo, and I mix WL's keys left, piano right, myself center. It helps me distinguish my sound from the other instruments, and keep track. I get too lost if I go like you, although it sounds fantastic.

[Faraldi]

Interesting. This week's service was pretty rough and the mix was simply an added issue to the whole scenario.

Right now I'm serving on a worship team that has absolutely no leadership and no direction. The guy who is supposed to be the worship leader hasn't been there for at least two months and the young man sitting in for him seems to come from the same school of thought, meaning just spend 15 minutes on Saturday to run through the songs and hope for the best on Sunday. It's frustrating to say the least.

No, I don't want it to be a "production" because I believe ministering of any kind needs to be genuine. However, I do feel that studying for a test just to get a passing grade is a waste of ability, and that's what has been going on.

On the subject of the sound guy. Every week it's someone different. A couple of weeks ago, it was no one. So, if I need to keep my volume a little higher so that the band has something to follow, I'll do it. The worship leader actually ASKS me to turn up for this purpose, meanwhile, the sound guy asks me to turn down.

As you can tell, this frustrates the heck out of me.

We're in the process of moving back to New Jersey and are praying that we find a church where I can serve on the music ministry, where there's a bit more stability and organization. I love the folks I currently serve with and I know who I'm really serving. I just struggle with the issues that take place sometimes.

[justin.ray]

Originally Posted by SatelliteOrders

That's when you know you've stopped playing guitar and started playing music..

Yeah, this is what I'm talking about. I think if musicians could stop playing their instrument and start making music during a worship service we would experience worship services that seem like the band is much better collectively than they are individually instead of much worse collectively than they are individually.

I think the trouble is, there are very few musicians out there that 1. know how to do this, and 2. care enough about making music to do it. It's ironic though, because often the most technically proficient musicians are the worst culprits.

[smsuryan]

i try to play as little as possible to get what im saying across, that is one of the best lessons ive ever learned...

[GoldieLocks]

IF you can't hear what everyone else is playing: then you're probably playing too much.

IF you can't go from a whisper to a scream with your amp setting: then you're probably not a very good guitar player.

IF your soundman tells you that you're too loud (and your the only one playing): then he's probably not a very good soundman.


IF i had a dollar for everytime a soundman told me to turn down before he even heard the drummers volume: I'd have $4.oo.

[RodeoTex]

I'm a guitar player at home but a soundman at a local venue where a lot of amateurs play.
Inexperienced guitar players always think they gottan crank their amps (which I can understand) but usually refuse to turn their miced amps backward. I really get a kick from the guys that think they gotta crank their SS amps...

So anyway, the guitar and bass players are blasting straight from the stage using up the whole alloted 110dB. I have to keep the mains on the board way down or off to keep within the allowed limits. We hear the guitars but no singer and drums only acoustically. Sucks every time inexperienced players won't listen to the soundman.

[SatelliteOrders]

Originally Posted by justin.ray

It's ironic though, because often the most technically proficient musicians are the worst culprits.

But, to take their side for a moment, if you take the time to develop a set of technical skills, to become good, and this was your opportunity to use that skill set, wouldn't you?

[justin.ray]

Part of being a good musician is knowing when and how to play. This discussion is an extension of that. I think if you want to play music in a way that doesn't fit into what is being played, you need to find another outlet to fulfill that. I'm not saying that really technical guitar playing should never be part of worship, but it should always complement the rest of the arrangement.

[SatelliteOrders]

Believe me, I get you. I just understand the forces at work. In fact, I'm stuck between 'em every Wednesday and every other Sunday. B)

[voodoostation]

I'm a quiet player to begin with, I tend to EQ my sound to fit and I can hear it. The moment I begin not hearing myself, I start turning the volume down on my guitar. Many times I've played with my volume off, just miming it. I'm beyond arguing or trying to 'splain how to temper volume. I've not got to the point of putting my guitar down and walking but it will come.

[Jeff_K]

We had a killer praise band and orchestra and we realized very early on that the more people playing together the LESS each had to play for the whole to be right. Otherwise, it's like that hilarious line from "Amadeus": there are too many notes! The other requirement was that egos were checked at the door. Worship isn't the place for prima donas. However, I totally agree that I never thought the electric guitar was loud enough. It goes naturally with death and taxes.

[sethwllms]

Being both a soundman and guitarist, it is very difficult finding the line between what is too loud in the mains and what the musicians want to hear. When I run sound, I make sure everything is heard, and I know where levels need to be and what needs to be heard on what song, and what not. However, musicians ALWAYS complain to me that they cannot hear themselves. It is pointless to complain, because some systems it is just not possible to have everyone completely happy, unless you are using a great sound system, or possibly in ears. Being a guitarist, I find the easiest thing to do is just position your amp to where you can hear it, and be happy. Not every sound system can make everyone completely happy, so be happy with what youve got.