Church band dilema

[Joe-Bob]

I recently started playing in a church band, and while I haven't been a habitual church-goer in the past, this has given me an opportunity to attend and participate. I've been enjoying it fairly well.

Problem is; the junior minister who is in charge of it has quite a penchant for dishonesty. Personally, I don't suffer liars well, and especially as ministers. It's a problem for the church as I see it. He's going to be a massive liability in the future. I approached the senior minister, and she told him that I have some "issues". She didn't tell him that the issue is his lack of character. So now, he wants me to go to the church to have a meeting with him: He thinks it my problem. He's not gonna be happy.

So, if I go, I'm not one to mince words, or be politically correct. It's been my experience that people do not respond well when made to face their dishonesties. It would basically end any musical participation for me.

Or should I insist that the senior minister and elders deal with their problem child themselves?

[getbent]

What is your goal? To fix other people? to straighten out the church 'for the future'? To be right and kick ass and tell them how it is?

It doesn't sound like you are in a position to 'insist' anything, right? They are the flock leaders, you are the flock. Humility is important. If you have a grievance with someone, it is always a good first step to address it with them first. Next, if the person disagrees with you or doesn't see it your way and you still contend that you are 'right'... then you escalate it.

The pastor is doing the correct management strategy by having you two try to work it out. What she may not understand is that you already know that you want this person 'out'. (is that right?) and maybe you want to replace him?

Whether or not he is happy is kind of beside the point... the critical thing here is... what would make you happy? If there is no point in meeting with the junior minister as you think he is beyond redemption, you should probably not waste his nor your time. Go straight back to the pastor, explain that you cannot fathom that this junior minister could continue in his duties and your reasons.

Be prepared that she NOT take your side but suggest that you stop working with him at all, but continue at the church or attend at a place that better fits your needs.

Just make sure you know what outcome you would want prior to attending any meetings. If you go and blast away but lack a plan or a path to your own satisfaction... you will probably be marginalized and seen as an angry person who cannot be made to be happy.

If it will just feel good to 'let'em have it.' Well, that is an option... it typically leads to having lots of new relationships and not many long term ones.

[Joe-Bob]

Look, I expect people that I work with to be honest and forthright. I don't think that's too much to ask, and I'm not going to accept anything less. But I also did not take this guy to raise, it's not my responsibility to correct his character flaws. That belongs to his boss(es). But he is insisting on a confrontation, in which case I won't sugar-coat anything; that would be dishonest.

[bruce123]

Well, if the flock leader/s are dishonest, then it's time to find a different church.

[westex93]

Biblically, you need deal with it yourself first. Be honest and don't mince words. But also remember that they are only human and deserve to be able to make a mistake. Assume the best and approach them with the goal of restoration. Exposing wounds is often the only way to get them to heal.

If the one-on-one meeting doesn't work out, then it's time to take it to the next step - with a couple of witnesses. But, again, remember the goal should never be to hammer on somebody but to lovingly and honestly point out the offense so they have an opportunity to correct it. You and I may be the next ones to screw up and we will want that same opportunity.

[getbent]

Originally Posted by Joe-Bob

Look, I expect people that I work with to be honest and forthright. I don't think that's too much to ask, and I'm not going to accept anything less. But I also did not take this guy to raise, it's not my responsibility to correct his character flaws. That belongs to his boss(es). But he is insisting on a confrontation, in which case I won't sugar-coat anything; that would be dishonest.

I think that the fact that the pastor is asking you to meet with the junior pastor has more to do with following protocol and allowing you two to work it out.

If the situation is intractable, be prepared to move on as it may be that they see things differently than you do.

As for expectations for others... when I work with other people, I am concerned for what I do, and what my subordinates do.... in other words, what I can control. You cannot control what the junior pastor does as you are not his superior. You can register your issues with him, after that, you can accept his behavior or you can leave. How much 'straight talk' goes on is really a matter of how much time you are willing to waste and how much satisfaction it will give you not to 'sugar coat' it.

Again, you should do what will get you what you want and what is best (in your mind) for the congregation. That may include you leaving.

[Brendo]

I've found that churches are usually no different to the the general 'unchurch' people. You have a good percentage of good ones, some flaky ones, and those who rub you the wrong way, for whatever reason. Like Getbent said, you can't do anything other than have a word to him. How he responds is his business, not yours.

People are people, none of them are perfect, and for every fault you can find in them, there is probably exactly the same number of faults in you. It shouldn't get between you and God, because that's a direct line.

[Warren Pederson]

How CALMLY and CONCERNED can you "come across" ? and....rational. I think yer screwed.

[TELEkinetic]

Originally Posted by Joe-Bob

Problem is; the junior minister who is in charge of it has quite a penchant for dishonesty. Personally, I don't suffer liars well, and especially as ministers. It's a problem for the church as I see it. He's going to be a massive liability in the future.

I agree with your statement above.

However, you've expressed an opinion with no detail. "Massive" suggests something that will destroy your church - permanently. Without more detail it's hard to filter just how "massive" the problem is.

Did you share details? Could you be overreacting?

[sonserve]

From what I can tell the outcome will largely depend on how you present your position. What you say, how you say it and your body language. I recomend not speaking with others in the congregation about your concerns as this amounts to gossip. Honesty is very important to me, but there are different levels. White lies and self agrandizing can be more easily tolerated than other types of lies that are more damaging. You were rather vague on the details.
I think taking instruction from the Bible, a pastor or teacher is a good aproach. I have found praying and allowing the Spirit to gude me can be miraculously effective. You are not alone. The Holy Spirit is always there, but you must invite the Spirit into your life and heart.
Playing in my church for two years now has done wonders of good in my life. I wish the same for you. You may need to find another church. You may get to the other side of this and realize you and the junior minister have grown and matured through the process of working things out.
Good luck, and let us know how things shake out.
God Bless,
Sonny

[neocaster]

Originally Posted by Joe-Bob

I recently started playing in a church band, and while I haven't been a habitual church-goer in the past, this has given me an opportunity to attend and participate. I've been enjoying it fairly well.

Problem is; the junior minister who is in charge of it has quite a penchant for dishonesty. Personally, I don't suffer liars well, and especially as ministers. It's a problem for the church as I see it. He's going to be a massive liability in the future. I approached the senior minister, and she told him that I have some "issues". She didn't tell him that the issue is his lack of character. So now, he wants me to go to the church to have a meeting with him: He thinks it my problem. He's not gonna be happy.

So, if I go, I'm not one to mince words, or be politically correct. It's been my experience that people do not respond well when made to face their dishonesties. It would basically end any musical participation for me.

Or should I insist that the senior minister and elders deal with their problem child themselves?

Yours is not the first congregation to have actual humans in it, with actual human shortcomings. I won't make excuses for the junior minister, but being junior, he may have a lot to learn. I think you're overestimating how massive the consequences of this person's actions might be, and underestimating the collective strength of your congregation. Congregations of any size have differences of opiion, of approach, and of character. Navigating these issues is everyone's responsibility. Most go through some pretty big earthquakes, and come out the other side changed, usually stronger. If its leadership is advising you how to proceed with your concern, and you're undermining that, you're as big a threat to it as this man is.

Originally Posted by Joe-Bob

Look, I expect people that I work with to be honest and forthright. I don't think that's too much to ask, and I'm not going to accept anything less. But I also did not take this guy to raise, it's not my responsibility to correct his character flaws. That belongs to his boss(es). But he is insisting on a confrontation, in which case I won't sugar-coat anything; that would be dishonest.

You can expect it to rain pennies. Your expectation has no impact on reality, and only serves to feed your anger and throw you off your ability to approach and impact a solution. Accept it. You're not going to change anyone except yourself. Approach this with some character of your own, plant some seeds of character in this young man by addressing it with character yourself. If you're a part of this congregation, respect its leaders or find another house to worship in.

[rolleiguy54]

There are a lot of other churches. I wouldn't get that involved. You may feel uncomfortable every time you go.

My 2 centavos

[Bensen]

Originally Posted by Joe-Bob

Problem is; the junior minister who is in charge of it has quite a penchant for dishonesty.

What did he do?

[Saxguitar]

Originally Posted by Bensen

What did he do?

That is what I am trying to figure out.

I don't know what to tell you other than stuff like getbent and others have said. Good luck with it. I just recommend you pray on it like crazy and hopefully you find the answer. It may not be the one you want but it will be an answer, who knows.

[TDPRI]

4- posts removed.

Look if to answer a post you have to quote scripture or say what the leader of your religion said, then you're in the wrong forum -- as in you shouldn't be posting on the TDPRI at all.

This thread is very borderline. So, I'm going to close it as it really has more to do with the OP's church and the personnel there rather than the mechanics of playing in a church environment.