Confused on what to do...

[Detman101]

I have a problem. And of course, again, it's music related...or rather, guitar related.

My church (COGIC <black> Protestant Church) doesn't have a clue how a guitar fits into the music. As such, I feel like i'm an outcast there. I have been finding out that most other "Black" churches in my jurisdiction are ignorant when it comes to this.

(If I offend anyone I apologize, I do not mean to sound racist in any way)

I've been with my church from the time I got saved, but I'm feeling like I may have to leave the "Church of God in Christ" in order to pursue my passion of playing guitar. Just, every church that I go to in my jurisdiction it's the same thing...
The guitarists everywhere play so low you can't hear anything but faint noodling sometimes. And every time the guitar can be heard just barely, someone looks over and tells them to turn it down. The constant ignorance of the fact that there is more to music in church than a keyboard and drums is starting to wear on me...

I know what you're probably going to say...
"Well, when you play don't you play for Jesus and not people?"
Well, I have already answered yes to that question when my wife asked me. It's hard to play your best for Jesus when you have people in the church railing against you. This past Sunday I just stopped playing, packed up my gear and sat out the service.

Now, also manage the audio board and I could be a jerk and just do whatever the heck I want to do. But I don't want to upset our pastor or cause a disturbance during worship. I don't want to disrespect God's house...but I also can't see tolerating any more of this disrespect.

Do you have any advice? Right now i'm thinking of just leaving and joining the nearest "(White) contemporary Christian" church I can find. I know that the guitar is considered a viable instrument as I have played with a "(white) contemporary Christian" band in the past.

Thanks,
Dm

[MusicChad]

This can be a difficult situation... I'll certainly pray that you sense the Lord's direction in all of this... What do you sense the Spirit directing you to do?

[Detman101]

Originally Posted by MusicChad

This can be a difficult situation... I'll certainly pray that you sense the Lord's direction in all of this... What do you sense the Spirit directing you to do?

Continue forward and be obedient to my pastor and to Jesus.
I know that my blessing lies in my current church. I know that it's a trick of the enemy to try and lead me away from my current church. I also know that it is unsaved people in our music department that make things difficult.

We have no real musical structure or leadership at our church. In part, that is what makes it so difficult for me. I'm the type that if I don't see a structure or leadership, I make my own. It's hard for me to see something that needs doing and trying to do it, but getting kicked in the teeth for trying.

I have been praying on whether or not God would be okay with me quitting my responsibilities/positions as Audio Tech and Guitarist and just going back to sitting in the congregation.

Lord knows i'll get more of His word...thats a good thing.


Dm

[Saxguitar]

I think in a sense you have answered your question. You might find that you are being called to be at your current church, that is a good feeling to have. Try to identify with the people making the complaints and try to find a happy medium, talk to those people and try and gain a sense of structure in the musical structure, I wouldn't stay stop playing because you are using the gift you were given, my church had a similar problem when our PT began because everyone liked traditional music. My congregation used to hate the sound of the electric guitar but over the years as we have seen different players it is just now beginning to feel like it is ok to put a little distortion on my sound.

You talk about leaving to join a contemporary "white" church, maybe you could play at a contemporary service on like a Saturday night to get a "fix" of the guitar and then go to your home church which it sounds like you have a strong connection to on Sunday morning.

Good luck with the problem I hope you make the right decision, it is between you an God all I can really advise you to do is pray on it like crazy. Hope this helped.

[Detman101]

Originally Posted by Saxguitar

I think in a sense you have answered your question. You might find that you are being called to be at your current church, that is a good feeling to have. Try to identify with the people making the complaints and try to find a happy medium, talk to those people and try and gain a sense of structure in the musical structure, I wouldn't stay stop playing because you are using the gift you were given, my church had a similar problem when our PT began because everyone liked traditional music. My congregation used to hate the sound of the electric guitar but over the years as we have seen different players it is just now beginning to feel like it is ok to put a little distortion on my sound.

You talk about leaving to join a contemporary "white" church, maybe you could play at a contemporary service on like a Saturday night to get a "fix" of the guitar and then go to your home church which it sounds like you have a strong connection to on Sunday morning.

Good luck with the problem I hope you make the right decision, it is between you an God all I can really advise you to do is pray on it like crazy. Hope this helped.

You know what! That's an AWESOME idea!!
Thank you, God bless you!! I will begin looking for a local Christian Worship team that wouldn't mind a guitar playing along with them.

I have been gunshy about joining another band but the bad experience I had last time was because the band leader wanted me to be him...and I'm not.

Thank you!

Dm

[dantonel]

Yeah we had a large outcry for a more "driving" service so we created one. Our purpose is to spread the Word and you can't do that if you're stuck in your ways and not staying ahead of the game. Just think, in 30 years, what is the worship going to be like?? Metal? Rap? Country? Who knows, but you'll never find out if you're stuck in your ways.

[JayDee]

I also know that it is unsaved people in our music department that make things difficult.

Wow, that's a problem! How do the leaders in the church expect people who don't follow Jesus to lead the congregation in worship to Him? That is a big, glowing, bright, red flag! That's something you might consider in your decision more than whether or not they understand the worth of a guitar in worship. I'm praying for you.

[Detman101]

Originally Posted by JayDee

Wow, that's a problem! How do the leaders in the church expect people who don't follow Jesus to lead the congregation in worship to Him? That is a big, glowing, bright, red flag! That's something you might consider in your decision more than whether or not they understand the worth of a guitar in worship. I'm praying for you.

Well, the keyboardist isn't saved. Because of how the church developed, he is 90% of the music. I get the feeling that the Pastor wouldn't discipline him or have him brought inline because if he left there would be no one to replace him. I thought this when the pastor spoke so glowingly to me about ME falling in line...yet no one ropes in his son on the keyboards...lol.

It's not my church, I'm just a little member. If I don't like it I guess I can just find someplace that fits me better. I have that option. They can continue in their rut until their son decides he wants to produce go-go music or go away to college or something.

In the end, they stand to lose more than I do and ultimately the only reason I've been this affected by it is because of my own weaknesses and desire for order.


Dm

[gpmedium]

The guitar serves a different role in black gospel/r&b/funk than in CCW. Most of the time it is a rhythmic supporting role with the bass guitar and the keyboard as the dominant instrument. It is usually very clean with almost no distortion or overdrive, but may have other effects on it.

If you really want to play guitar with them, learn your role. Listen to other guitarists playing those types of styles and emulate that. I don't think you will be asked to turn down if your guitar part fits the music perfectly.

You can also look at it as a perfect opportunity to work on your rhythm guitar chops.

Saxguitars idea is a great one. It would also allow you to immerse yourself in a different musical style that might be closer to what you envision guitar playing should be. the more you play with others the better your guitar playing will become.

[Detman101]

Originally Posted by gpmedium

The guitar serves a different role in black gospel/r&b/funk than in CCW. Most of the time it is a rhythmic supporting role with the bass guitar and the keyboard as the dominant instrument. It is usually very clean with almost no distortion or overdrive, but may have other effects on it.

If you really want to play guitar with them, learn your role. Listen to other guitarists playing those types of styles and emulate that. I don't think you will be asked to turn down if your guitar part fits the music perfectly.

You can also look at it as a perfect opportunity to work on your rhythm guitar chops.

Saxguitars idea is a great one. It would also allow you to immerse yourself in a different musical style that might be closer to what you envision guitar playing should be. the more you play with others the better your guitar playing will become.

Very true. But the role of guitar in black gospel is almost non-existent. If I want to play so low that no one can hear me, I'll just play at home with my headphones getting yelled at by my wife and son lol. That's not the life I want when playing out. I guess black gospel isn't for me and CCW is more in-line with my spirit and passion.

I would love to learn how to "Fit-in" with the "Black gospel" style but finding someone who can teach me without asking for an exorbitant amount of money has not been easy. The few times that I have played at other churches where there were guitarists, the resident guitarists just stay to themselves even if I speak to them. I have found one old school blues guitarist that plays with the head church in our jurisdiction that was really friendly but he is running audio like me and is always busy even on off days.

But I won't give up, the search has just begun.

Dm

[GitHead]

I play on the worship team in my EFCA church. They are a biblical evengelical church. Many styles are played there including modern Christian rock and the electric guitar is welcome on anything you can make it sound good on. Of course not all EFCA churches are alike but I found my church by visitng a different church every week. It took me over a year to find the one. I mean I visited a lot of nice churches but this one just had all the right elements including a strong emphasis on the music.

[Detman101]

Originally Posted by GitHead

I play on the worship team in my EFCA church. They are a biblical evengelical church. Many styles are played there including modern Christian rock and the electric guitar is welcome on anything you can make it sound good on. Of course not all EFCA churches are alike but I found my church by visitng a different church every week. It took me over a year to find the one. I mean I visited a lot of nice churches but this one just had all the right elements including a strong emphasis on the music.

Wow, that's a serious search! Sounds like it was worth it in the end. That's awesome though!


Dm

[Nub]

Paul Jackson Jr. has a DVD that's just been reissued, called "The Science Of Rhythm Guitar," it's all about fitting in with keyboard driven bands & the concept of "leaving space" when you play. Lots of great info, and easily transferable to gospel stuff: http://www.pauljacksonjr.com/more.htm

Here are a couple of clips from it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWOH6...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXufB...eature=related

[Jhengsman]

Have you tried:
http://www.learngospelmusic.com/foru...oard,12.0.html

The board is keyboard focused, but then so are most gospel praise teams.

[Detman101]

Originally Posted by Jhengsman

Have you tried:
http://www.learngospelmusic.com/foru...oard,12.0.html

The board is keyboard focused, but then so are most gospel praise teams.

Yes sir, I am a member there.
They only had a few songs that our choir plays.

Thank you,
Dm

[Detman101]

Originally Posted by Nub

Paul Jackson Jr. has a DVD that's just been reissued, called "The Science Of Rhythm Guitar," it's all about fitting in with keyboard driven bands & the concept of "leaving space" when you play. Lots of great info, and easily transferable to gospel stuff: http://www.pauljacksonjr.com/more.htm

Here are a couple of clips from it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWOH6...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXufB...eature=related

I will have to order a copy of this dvd.
I will have to study how the keyboard player plays at our church more. From what I can remember, he never leaves any space because he has a bass keyboard and a melody keyboard. They're one on top of the other in a rack. If one isn't going, the other one is....

Paul Baloche also has a great set of instruction on playing in a band. However, I wish that his DvD still applied to me. (IE: Being in a band...)

He needs to release one titled "How to play with a keyboard and drums when you're not allowed to"...lol.



Dm

[sharktele]

Originally Posted by Detman101

We have no real musical structure or leadership at our church. In part, that is what makes it so difficult for me. I'm the type that if I don't see a structure or leadership,

Dm

I can understand your situation. I've been thru some similar situations. God is a God of order. There should be structure. What people usually don't understand is that church is the place where one goes to use their gift, to build the body. (Corinthians) If your gift is music, and your current church doesn't have a place for that, move on and don't feel bad about it. God will place you where he can use you to glorify Him. Time is too precious to waste and it looks like the Holy Spirit is urging you to rethink where you are.

I will pray for you right now.

[Ridge runner]

Hmm..I disagree with Shark politely that is...I'm semi pro player..but I feel like God & people are what's important not music..music is vanity in away..I go to churchs sometimes and a guy will be trying to play that has no business performing I mean his skill level is crap..his guitar will be out of tune..yet the brother is running with Jesus and is a beautiful person on the inside.<--that's what really matters not skill level to me anyways.

A good while back I was one of the main players at a sit around jam where all these sweet country folks would get up and sing classic country or old hymns pretty much what ever fiddle banjo tunes sax ect... and often me and my dad didn't know the progression and we were the main /best players there.we had to hold down the rhythms,improvise leads kick and end songs off play bass ect.. we would have to do it on the fly and you know sometimes we would have a train wreck with folks out of time or singing out of key..But then they would complain if we were to loud.

We played electric fender twins/teles..and they were playing acoustic instruments a lot of the time.but a few of the folks complaining couldn't hardly play..they would be singing a song that they kicked off and going to the wrong chords on the guitar.and we were there to fix all that and make sure the show went off well and try to make it enjoyable for the crowd. Never once did I ever tell somebody that they broke meter..but yeah my dad got very angry over this lady that told him he was to loud!!

My point is you're right about Satan trying to bust up a good thing..If there is love there.Be a servant and be just as happy running sound or serving in any possible way I feel..don't know if your trying to play leads
of not but you might consider like doing cool chord like harmony
type leads that go well with piano just intricate rhythm type things to keep you and the music interesting rather than say cowboy chords...Be patient and loyal and God will make it obvious to what your next move should be..
just my 2 cents worth.

[Nub]

Originally Posted by Ridge runner

I go to churchs sometimes and a guy will be trying to play that has no business performing I mean his skill level is crap..his guitar will be out of tune..yet the brother is running with Jesus and is a beautiful person on the inside.<--that's what really matters not skill level to me anyways.

The problem is that those types of folks can end up being a huge distraction because of their poor skill level. In the OT, the most skilled musicians & singers were chosen to lead worship, and in Psalm 33 it says, "Play skillfully with a shout of joy." Yet, there is a tendency in churches today (especially smaller churches), to let anybody lead worship, regardless of skill level. Funny how they don't do the same thing with pastors...

[Jhengsman]

Originally Posted by Detman101

From what I can remember, he never leaves any space because he has a bass keyboard and a melody keyboard. They're one on top of the other in a rack. If one isn't going, the other one is....

Paul Baloche also has a great set of instruction on playing in a band. However, I wish that his DvD still applied to me. (IE: Being in a band...)

He needs to release one titled "How to play with a keyboard and drums when you're not allowed to"...lol.



Dm

The Baloche band and electric guitar DVDs do apply to you. The challenge is to get the rest of the praise team on board also. So how I get the picturew that the keys are always on making runs in any break in the lyrics. And the bass player's fingers are stuck in a claw shape as he slaps and pops.

[Rich_S]

Practice your acoustic chops, then pray for mice to chew up all the electrical wiring supplying power to the keyboards and PA. Hey, substitute "organ bellows" for "electrical wiring" and it's how Silent Night came in to being.

[Ptrallan01]

How's it going? Been a while since we spoke. Did you get back uptown?

Has the band allowed you to work with them? Did the 5/7 trick work?

Let me know!

YIC
Peter

[PraiseCaster]

Yeah, I'm with Peter (Ptrallan01), and would love to know how you are doing.

If I'm reading all of this correctly, you've got a P&W team that is a mixed bag (some believers, some not), and no defined leader on the team. Is that correct?

Now, take this with a grain of salt, but maybe, just maybe, someone is lightly tapping on your shoulder, and wanting to raise you up to take the leadership position?

Just a thought............

[Detman101]

Originally Posted by Ptrallan01

How's it going? Been a while since we spoke. Did you get back uptown?

Has the band allowed you to work with them? Did the 5/7 trick work?

Let me know!

YIC
Peter

God bless you sir!!

Things have improved a bit since we spoke. I've been meaning to give you all an update to my situation.

I send out an email to the Choir director and informed them that I would no longer be playing with them during service. If I did have my guitar there it would be to play for my own practice and not into the house.

The very next day I got an invite on my blackberry for the "Musicians Group"!! It turns out that the keyboard player started up a group for the musicians of the church and invited me and the others to join. We had our first "Shed" about 2-3 weeks ago on a friday night and it was awesome!!
There has been a greater bond between the keyboardist and I since then and i spoke to him in length about all the bad things I was feeling and he said that I could have just told him all of that earlier instead of getting frustrated and thinking about leaving. I felt like a real bum...almost cried cause I felt stupid and happy at the same time.

But in the end it all worked out for the good and we have regular practice sessions now! In fact, I'll be heading to our next one tonight after work!!

Hallelujah!!


Dm

[Detman101]

OH!! The Keyboard player also has gotten saved in the time I've been away from the TDPRI. He and his girlfriend are going strong in the Lord and his attitude has definitely changed!

I also got my '51 professionally setup last week. Tonight will be my first time playing it with the band after the setup. It's like a totally different (Easier to play) guitar!!! I love it!!!

=]
Dm

[Saxguitar]

Glad to hear things all worked out good for you and you are still able to play and it sounds like you are really happy with where you are now.

[PraiseCaster]

I love hearing when everything works out like that!

Gee, its almost like someone was in complete control...............

[Faraldi]

Originally Posted by JayDee

Wow, that's a problem! How do the leaders in the church expect people who don't follow Jesus to lead the congregation in worship to Him? That is a big, glowing, bright, red flag! That's something you might consider in your decision more than whether or not they understand the worth of a guitar in worship. I'm praying for you.

AMEN!!!!!!

[Faraldi]

When I got saved in 2007, I was playing (bass) on my church worship team. I never felt welcomed, maybe because I wear earrings and have some ink on my arm. Or maybe it's because when I play for Him, the Holy Spirit just takes over and makes a joyful noise through my hands.

Our worship leader was a very respected jazz musician in our area and was (and is) a nice guy. However, when things started to move towards focusing on the presentation and not the praise, I saw a huge red flag. Example...

Thursday night rehearsals we started hearing about how the leaders "reviewed the DVD from last Sunday and wanted some of us to make more eye contact with the 'audience' and not to close our eyes while we played". I mean seriously? The other item was that the church was actually paying some of the musicians. I and about half of the others were volunteers (which is how I wanted it). This blew me away.

I stuck around for about 6 months and then left that church.

I now play at a small church in town that meets in an elementary school. Maybe 60 in the congregation. It's great to just play for God with the gifts He has let us borrow for as long as He decides.

Man I say for this situation, if a place is not anointed (and based upon what you are telling us, it is NOT anointed), it might not be the best place for you. The question you need to ask yourself is if your walk, at this point in time, can take on the huge task of trying to change things there.

For me and my family, the right decision was to be a blessing to others at this small church and it's been the right decision for sure.

God places things in front of us sometimes, allowing us to figure out whether we should try to barrel them over or simply change course to go another direction. As humans, we sometimes feel the "change direction" option is taking the easy way. That's a pride thing and pride is one of the strong tools of that punk, the enemy.

Praying for you.

Joe

[Dave_Strat]

Starting a P&W service in a church can be frustrating. Electric guitar can be received well or not, depending on how you present it. Jimi Hendrix style guitar can be a little too much for some churches and just right for others. It depends on the makeup of the congregation.

I play heavy leads on some songs and nice, melodious fills on others. We have two electrics and an acoustic, so I get to do lots of Neal Schon (Journey) type guitar work. I play harmony to the soloist where appropriate and 3 note inside chords. I get to rock out with bluesy overdriven solos where appropriate and generally have my tone set up so that I can roll back the guitar volume for clean and crank it back up for overdrive.

Once the congregation begins to realize that a guitar can make nice, pretty sounds, you can begin to expand to sustained, Clapton style solos and get a good response. Remember that most of your audience has their car radio tuned to a secular station when they leave church. It's the personna of "church" that can make them expect something different in a service. It's your job to show them that church can be fun and exciting and still be respectful and reverent. A joyful noise to the Lord can be anything that sounds a praise to God.

Piano and organ were never mentioned in the Bible. Drums, Cymbals, horns, and harps were.

[Ptrallan01]

Glad things are improving and that you are being included. Hard to be the new kid on the block or new musician in the group. Hallelujah for the keyboardist's conversion. This should make things easier from now on.

You've got my number feel free to call at any time. Really enjoyed talking to someone from home!

[Jhengsman]

Originally Posted by Dave_Strat

Starting a P&W service in a church can be frustrating. Electric guitar can be received well or not, depending on how you present it. Jimi Hendrix style guitar can be a little too much for some churches and just right for others. It depends on the makeup of the congregation.

I play heavy leads on some songs and nice, melodious fills on others. We have two electrics and an acoustic, so I get to do lots of Neal Schon (Journey) type guitar work. I play harmony to the soloist where appropriate and 3 note inside chords. I get to rock out with bluesy overdriven solos where appropriate and generally have my tone set up so that I can roll back the guitar volume for clean and crank it back up for overdrive.

Once the congregation begins to realize that a guitar can make nice, pretty sounds, you can begin to expand to sustained, Clapton style solos and get a good response. Remember that most of your audience has their car radio tuned to a secular station when they leave church. It's the personna of "church" that can make them expect something different in a service. It's your job to show them that church can be fun and exciting and still be respectful and reverent. A joyful noise to the Lord can be anything that sounds a praise to God.

Piano and organ were never mentioned in the Bible. Drums, Cymbals, horns, and harps were.

As I understand the OP the guitar is not the problem. Although many churches do hold out against them or drums for example. What we have is a style of music and church where the organ reigns supreme and leaves no sonic room for a guitar or anyone else to add counter lines to the music.

[Detman101]

Originally Posted by Ptrallan01

Glad things are improving and that you are being included. Hard to be the new kid on the block or new musician in the group. Hallelujah for the keyboardist's conversion. This should make things easier from now on.

You've got my number feel free to call at any time. Really enjoyed talking to someone from home!

Will do sir!
Now that things have finally come to fruition, I feel myself being pulled back to another initiative....

Taking jazz lessons...lol.

I will be in touch...


Dm

[curtbob]

Originally Posted by JayDee

Wow, that's a problem! How do the leaders in the church expect people who don't follow Jesus to lead the congregation in worship to Him? That is a big, glowing, bright, red flag! That's something you might consider in your decision more than whether or not they understand the worth of a guitar in worship. I'm praying for you.

+1

Unsaved, uncommitted, unconverted (you pick the word) leading the worship service!?!?! Boy howdy, that's beyond big.

[Jhengsman]

Originally Posted by curtbob

+1

Unsaved, uncommitted, unconverted (you pick the word) leading the worship service!?!?! Boy howdy, that's beyond big.

Generally I would say they don't see musicians as "leading" worship service anymore then the sound team or janitorial staff. They are technicians. Those churches that can afford to hire out will buy the best in town to back their worship leaders, the singers. The praise leader is the frontman in a secular definition. Some bands are made up of life long mates, with others its just a charismatic singer with the best people money can buy as his sidemen.