My Church Rig.

[ravindave_3600]

Nice looking strat, even if it did start out as a cheap-o. Please give us a review of the Lazy J when you get it, too - we don't have access over here!

[Samsen]

^Thanks! Got to try the Lazy J before I ordered it in a shop over here, and loved the tones with the Alnico Blue. Always wanted a Fender-style amp and the tweed deluxe type tones were very thick and solid in this amp-my type of thing. Not a huge fan of the Blackface tones-although the cleans were great and 'glassy', always felt that the overdriven tones were a bit one dimensional/lacked the complexity of, say a plexi. The power scaling, simplicity of the amp and the quirk of 6L6 in this circuit instead of the usual 6V6 and of course the touch sensitivity and clean-up dynamics of this type of circuit, pretty much sold me on it! The tones can rival any old Marshall plexi-which is what I was looking for in the shop when I caught sight of this amp. I was looking for the Cornell Plexi to try (and possibly buy), which wasn't available. Will do an extended review of the Lazy J when I get it.

[ravindave_3600]

Sounds good.

[jbmando]

Originally Posted by jbmando

Today I played Ibanez Artcore AF75TDGIV > Cool Cat CTO-1 > mixing board. I know it's supposed to be a tube driver, but it sounded great for some crunch. This rig was all wrong - jazz box with flats on it and a tube driver, but it was what I decided to use because the leader's brother had come in from Australia, and they played jazz together back there, so I thought we might be doing some jazzier stuff. I just threw the pedal in in case I needed it and he said he wanted distortion for a couple of tunes so I tried it. I would use one my Squiers normally. We never use amps.

Well, I changed churches, purely for logistical reasons - it was too hard on our baby daughter to be in the car so much every other Sunday. I had to leave the house at 7:00 AM for Sunday morning rehearsal at 7:45 and we didn't get back home until almost 1.

Anyway, at the new church I am using almost always: my Nashville Tele into Ernie Ball Volume>Moen UniComp>Dunlop Cry Baby>ProCo Rat (from the 80s)>Danelectro Cool Cat Tremolo>Line 6 Echo Park straight to the board via an Artec active DI box. I like my tone in the IEM and I don't think it sounds too bad on the videos I have seen of our services. Our sound man wants to try amps again, so I will be taking my Tweed NOS Blues Jr. with an Eminence Red White and Blues speaker in to see how it works.

[ampmike]

Im in the 51 year old group and when I was 38 I was always pushing my boogies with creamy distortion.It did seem to offend some people who said this is a service not a bar room.
Over the years I began building my own tube amps and have a passion for tone.The early band actually caused a split in the church and was an ugly time.I stayed and now I just play a 5e3 and all my electrics tele,strat.Total clean undistorted amp and I love that now.
I build nice maple cabs and TW style heads and Im working on one for church now.
Mikey

[Samsen]

Originally Posted by jbmando

<snip>Anyway, at the new church I am using almost always: my Nashville Tele into Ernie Ball Volume>Moen UniComp>Dunlop Cry Baby>ProCo Rat (from the 80s)>Danelectro Cool Cat Tremolo>Line 6 Echo Park straight to the board via an Artec active DI box. I like my tone in the IEM and I don't think it sounds too bad on the videos I have seen of our services. Our sound man wants to try amps again, so I will be taking my Tweed NOS Blues Jr. with an Eminence Red White and Blues speaker in to see how it works.

Just wondering how this seemingly 'dry' setup of guitar>dirt box>assortment of fx>PA sounds really, as I imagine it must be very sterile sounding? I have the Tech21 Blonde and even that was a bit iffy sounding and kinda hard to work with to get it sound good in the foldbacks. Not to be a cork sniffer, I'm just wondering how you guys out there make the above rig work in a live environment? Any examples/youtubage for me to listen to where somebody is playing live with this setup?

[ravindave_3600]

Originally Posted by Samsen

Just wondering how this seemingly 'dry' setup of guitar>dirt box>assortment of fx>PA sounds really, as I imagine it must be very sterile sounding? I have the Tech21 Blonde and even that was a bit iffy sounding and kinda hard to work with to get it sound good in the foldbacks. Not to be a cork sniffer, I'm just wondering how you guys out there make the above rig work in a live environment? Any examples/youtubage for me to listen to where somebody is playing live with this setup?

I'm not sure where you're coming from. JBMando's running his tele through 6 pedals; lots of guys play without any! As for going through a DI into a board it's not my favorite plan, but I can get great tones with just Tele - T21Liverpool - board. Sure, I prefer my amps, but the average listener won't really notice.

So, help me understand what you mean by "dry" and "sterile".

[jbmando]

Originally Posted by Samsen

Just wondering how this seemingly 'dry' setup of guitar>dirt box>assortment of fx>PA sounds really, as I imagine it must be very sterile sounding? I have the Tech21 Blonde and even that was a bit iffy sounding and kinda hard to work with to get it sound good in the foldbacks. Not to be a cork sniffer, I'm just wondering how you guys out there make the above rig work in a live environment? Any examples/youtubage for me to listen to where somebody is playing live with this setup?

My Lincoln Brewster "Hallelujah" thread in this forum gives you a sample of my clean and dirty sounds with this rig. If you go to the video and click "Back to Album" underneath the title, there's a video of Chris Tomlin's "King of Glory" where I play distorted with tremolo, and the "Over all the Earth" video has my driven sound on a rocker.

[Samsen]

Originally Posted by ravindave_3600

I'm not sure where you're coming from. JBMando's running his tele through 6 pedals; lots of guys play without any! As for going through a DI into a board it's not my favorite plan, but I can get great tones with just Tele - T21Liverpool - board. Sure, I prefer my amps, but the average listener won't really notice.

So, help me understand what you mean by "dry" and "sterile".

From an audience's perspective, sure I agree with you that an average listener may not really notice the difference between the sansamp setup and the rig with a mic'd tube amp. But from a player's perpective I would suggest, the difference is night and day. Sure, the Tech21 stuff is pretty good at giving an 'analog' feel to the tone but again, from a player's perspective, the difference is analogous to a V6 Mustang Vs a Mustang Boss to a motoring enthusiast. Yes, to an average person they all look the same, but even to an average driver there is a difference. To an enthusiast, the difference is quite obvious. The power delivery/torque/handling/noise is undeniably different in the V8 Mustang compared to a V6 'Stang, perhaps more desirable. And this is just for Tech21 Vs equivalent tube amp; for the other setup [electric guitar>non-modelling pedals>DI'd to board] the difference from a player's perspective would be the difference between a Ford Mustang and a Fiesta. And I say this as someone who actively sought ways to NOT use a valve amp and trying to get the best gear (for the money I had) that can give me that elusive 'feel' (one of the reasons for me getting the T21 Blonde V2).

So what I mean by the terms 'dry' and 'sterile' is how the tone appears to me when there is no obvious speaker emulation/modelling applied to the tone. I find speaker simulation to be essential in making the electric guitar to sound like one. This is quite apart from issues of 'feel'. I had tried to use just my guitar>tc electronic nova system>t21 blonde v2>full range monitor, and it wasn't that great as people make it out to be. There was a lot of other 'unnatural' frequencies that thing was chucking out that wasn't very nice, and this was with the speaker simulation engaged in the Blonde! What I mean by 'unnatural' was things that you as a player wouldn't expect an electric guitar to put out as we are so used to playing through a guitar amp and obviously a guitar amp speaker colours the sound of an electric guitar so much so as that actually becomes part of the electric guitar's sound.

I spent one evening in church for about 5-6 hours tweaking the T21 Blonde and the foldback monitors/board mix to get it sound as authentic as possible with my setup (as above). I tried out a Keyboard amp (Roland KC 350) as a monitor in hopes of getting a warmer sound I can work with. I even tried out the Bose L1 Compact in a shop taking my rig with me to plug it in to-the aim was to use the Blonde with the best full range speaker system for my purposes. I had pretty much tried to design my rig around the Blonde. At the end of the day, I considered my efforts fruitful. I was quite pleased, I thought to myself, I don't have to buy a valve amp now. Then came a valve amp that completely destroyed that perception. The truth is that the Blonde would work exceptionally well with....wait for it....a tube amp. The only time I really liked the sounds coming out of the Blonde was when I plugged my rig straight in to the power amp of an Ibanez TSA15 stack via its effects loop. And I note that Tech21's recommended Power Engine itself has a Celestion Seventy80 as a speaker. Guess what?

Originally Posted by jbmando

My Lincoln Brewster "Hallelujah" thread in this forum gives you a sample of my clean and dirty sounds with this rig. If you go to the video and click "Back to Album" underneath the title, there's a video of Chris Tomlin's "King of Glory" where I play distorted with tremolo, and the "Over all the Earth" video has my driven sound on a rocker.

Thanks for this jbmando. I checked out those other vids as well and I really liked your playing and the energy! Also lovely, lovely tele btw. :) Please don't get offended by comments on this, as obviously we can only work with what we've got, including requirements from the church so it is not a slight on you. Your cleans were very very squeaky clean (in Another Hallelujah) which I may term a bit 'sterile', and your drive was pretty full on, but quite 'stiff' sounding i.e. it sounded to me as being not hugely dynamic. Not my thing, but if it suits you, it's cool. I'm sure the audience doesn't notice it and if you are happy with the tone (including the 'feel'), then that's all that matters at the end of the day! I dunno, this might have been because of the way it is recorded and mixed.

[jbmando]

Well, I technically prefer my tone from an amp. I use a Peavey Bandit and a Blues Junior at home, either of which sounds a little better than my tone at church, but I have come to believe that it isn't about that last hertz of tone in this situation. I'll explain later.

I came from a church where I used to use a guitar into the board - the only effects I ever used were compression and dirt - the Rat or a Dano CTO-1. Even though I wasn't driving tubes, it still gave me a decent distorted sound. I never played a guitar solo there, and rarely did any lick type stuff. Here they want to sound more like the CDs and I am supposed to let loose a little more. I have only played here for 7 services in 12 weeks - every two weeks and last week I played two services. I say all this to say that I am still looking for my sound - I am on my third compressor, second distortion and third delay since I started. I have settled on my pedal board for now, except that I may add a distortion for the availability of a different preset. Also, here I am usually on the schedule with another qualified guitar player so we try to complement each other's sound.

What I mean by it isn't about that last hertz of tone is that a worship musician is not performing, per se. We are attempting to let ourselves be used to bring people to a certain emotional and spiritual point where they are led into a worship experience. Most of a congregation would not know the difference in what I would consider good tone and great tone, so I have learned to accept a decent sound in order too build up the team. I hope I have stated this understandably.

[jbmando]

I just dated my Rat - it's from 1988, but I'm going to shelve it for a while. The Dano CTO-1 sounds practically as good and the led is invaluable to me on stage. I'd love a newer Rat with an LED if I knew for sure it would sound as good as my old one.

[Samsen]

Originally Posted by jbmando

<snip>
What I mean by it isn't about that last hertz of tone is that a worship musician is not performing, per se. We are attempting to let ourselves be used to bring people to a certain emotional and spiritual point where they are led into a worship experience. Most of a congregation would not know the difference in what I would consider good tone and great tone, so I have learned to accept a decent sound in order too build up the team. I hope I have stated this understandably.

I note that you like the tones out of the blues jr or the PV bandit, and I understand you are essentially making a compromise to meet the church requirements, which is admirable. I'm lucky that I'm allowed to use my AC15 in church. Ours is a small church but we have a small PA for a bit of sound reinforcement.

There have been noises about us being too loud out the front and not enough through the PA and the like, so if I was told to do away with my amp, I too will revert to the Blonde. To my mind it is a small sacrifice. But I really wouldn't want to go back after experiencing what a good valve amp can do. I find that my playing suffers if I'm using a 'dry' setup. Heck, even when I used to do [guitar>zoom g2>PA/Foldbacks], I was so utterly uninspired. I would basically do what is needed and nothing more. No energy, spontaneity or passion in my playing, I'm afraid. I don't want to feel crippled again!

[jbmando]

Have you tried putting your amp in front of you and aiming it at your head? It's what I used to do at church. If you have a line out (I had an AC15 and I don't remember if there's one or not) then it's even better than miking it. I don't feel as if my sound is dry. It sounds okay to me.

[jbmando]

Well, we tried using my Blues Junior tonight at rehearsal. It worked out pretty well. The amp, of course, sounds great. The Dano CTO-1 sounds better because it's actually driving tubes and the reverb of the amp sounds better to my ear than any reverb they put on it in the system. I think this will work out.

[Samsen]

Originally Posted by jbmando

Have you tried putting your amp in front of you and aiming it at your head? It's what I used to do at church. If you have a line out (I had an AC15 and I don't remember if there's one or not) then it's even better than miking it. I don't feel as if my sound is dry. It sounds okay to me.

I'm thinking of getting an amp stand and doing exactly what you said. Unfortunately, I don't have a line out, so it is mic'd at the moment. I just got an Audix i5 and used it the past week with excellent results, so perhaps I may need to get their cab-grabber too, to make this work!

Also, I need to clarify, my setup sounded 'dry' to me. It is entirely a personal thing. I dunno, you may feel different if you were playing in my setup. I think a lot of factors are involved here. Usually a bit of reverb 'warms' everything up a touch but it also tends to give a washy effect when combined with the room's natural reverb. Not very pleasant in the foldbacks...

[nrand]

I'm newish to this sub-forum because until recently my music life and ministry life were somewhat disconnected. I came into ministry through music but until two years ago my ministry placements were more in the traditional vein. Currently we have an active growing contemporary music ministry with a supportive congregation so maybe now I can make some contribution.

Acoustics: Taylor GA, Ibanez Hummingbird 12, Martin D25K into a Roland JC120. All acoustics have K&Ks installed, running through a Redeye preamp for boost when needed.
Electrics: Yamaha SG1500 [early 80s Japan market] and Charvel Surfcaster 12 into a Dean Markley K50 or a Dean Markley Signature 120 head/ Twin EV12L cab.

Baritone Telecaster into an Ashdown Mag 200.

My only pedals are for volume and switching except for the Redyeye already mentioned.
My FX rack holds a Dynacord DRP 15, compression, and a tuner.

Photos of my gear are scattered around TDPRI.

[Teleworshipkid]

My Latin is a little rusty, but I believe your sig reads something along the lines of "smart camel people"? Any story there?

[nrand]

Originally Posted by Teleworshipkid

My Latin is a little rusty, but I believe your sig reads something along the lines of "smart camel people"? Any story there?

At the risk of being Biblical I think it roughly translates as 'Wise men travel by camel'

[bikeracr]

My rig sans the pedal board. It does the job pretty well.

[tjalla]

Originally Posted by bikeracr

My rig sans the pedal board. It does the job pretty well.

In the same way ladies onstage shouldn't wear revealing clothing on Sunday mornings, that there is a bit too sexy for church bikeracr