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ejb222 · January 14th, 2009, 10:12 AM

So this has nothing to do with Teles, I know. But I was hoping for some biblical perspective to this situation I'm in.

So I borrowed my friend/roommate's Honda Accord last night to head to church. I drove the 20 miles there and 20 miles back as asked...respectfully and carefully. But the moment I pull into the apartment complex, the tire literally falls off. The axel pulled right out of the transmission. So I ran up to the apartment and let him know and had it towed.

So then he interviewed me about how I drove the car. I reassured him that the car just broke. I didn't mistreat it in anyway. Not even close to the way he was doing donuts in it the other day in the snow, hitting snow banks.

But now he expects me to help with the cost of repair. I admit that I had responsibility for the car while I drove it. But this was beyoind my control and could have happened to anyone drivnig the car. Am I really responsible to help pay for the repairs?

Your biblical opinion would really help. I just want to do the right thing.
Thanks

giantslayer · January 14th, 2009, 03:07 PM

Well, you said you want a Biblical opinion...

Off the top of my head, the verse that comes to mind is Exodus 22:14: "If a man borrows an animal from his neighbor and it is injured or dies while the owner is not present, he must make restitution."

I'll let you decide how well that does or doesn't apply to your situation.

Stuco · January 14th, 2009, 03:12 PM

You should help out a little with the repairs, maybe 20% or so.

ejb222 · January 14th, 2009, 04:06 PM

I appreciate your help. I do feel partly repsonsible as I didn't have to borrow the car. But once the notion was mentioned that I should pay for all the repairs. I was put off. I normally wouldn't mind offering to pay for some of the cost. But I was really struck by the manner in which he damanded that I pay before the circumstances were discussed.

But yes I will pray about it in hopes that I do the right thing. Thanks for your help and the bible verse.

guitarzan13 · January 14th, 2009, 04:14 PM

Sometimes being a Christian....well......is not as much fun as other times.....

ejb222 · January 14th, 2009, 04:17 PM

Exodus 22:10-14

10 "If a man gives a donkey, an ox, a sheep or any other animal to his neighbor for safekeeping and it dies or is injured or is taken away while no one is looking, 11 the issue between them will be settled by the taking of an oath before the LORD that the neighbor did not lay hands on the other person's property. The owner is to accept this, and no restitution is required. 12 But if the animal was stolen from the neighbor, he must make restitution to the owner. 13 If it was torn to pieces by a wild animal, he shall bring in the remains as evidence and he will not be required to pay for the torn animal.

14 "If a man borrows an animal from his neighbor and it is injured or dies while the owner is not present, he must make restitution. 15 But if the owner is with the animal, the borrower will not have to pay. If the animal was hired, the money paid for the hire covers the loss.

I read this differently than you quoted originally. I see that if property is borrowed and is lost without neglect (verse 14 and 15) or theft, than no restitution is required. I was present and mindful of my friends property and with out fault to the damage. Therefore no restitution is owed.

But I will more than likely offer to help as it was generous of him to lend me the car for the night. But if I'm correct in interpretation, I am free from restitution to him.

Drunkinminer · January 14th, 2009, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuco

You should help out a little with the repairs, maybe 20% or so.

+1

ejb222 · January 14th, 2009, 04:25 PM

Actually I was wrong... according to this scripture I do own the cost. Then that's what I must do.

Thanks again for the verse. Thanks to God for truth, no matter how hard it may be to accept.

sax4blues · January 14th, 2009, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ejb222

Exodus 22:10-14

10 "If a man gives a donkey, an ox, a sheep or any other animal ....
14 "If a man borrows an animal ....

Old testament law in general was for specific situations, in this case animals, and not necessarily to be extrapolated to all "property". It was literally the legal statutes much as our current society has laws. The new testament deals more with daily christian living and our personal interactions fall more in the "love your neighbor as yourself".

So if out of christian love for your neighbor you want to help repair the car that you were able to use, and if out of christian love for your neighbor you want to respond to his request for help, then by all means love/help your neighbor.

You are no longer under the law, you are to serve in love.

MickM · January 14th, 2009, 07:29 PM

What does the bible say about a man who abuses his animal, doing donuts on his ox and generally whipping the p--s out of it then lending it to a friend who is in possesion of it when it expires?

I would remind your friend of his recent treatment of the vehicle which as you described will definitely cause an axle to fail/fall out. Also ask him how he'd feel if you would've been injured or killed driving on the highway when the axle fell out due to his abusive treatment of said vehicle. Then tell him that even though you didn't abuse the car you'll pay for half of the bill.

AmericanStd. · January 14th, 2009, 07:30 PM

If you ask me, you didn't put all the miles on it that it took to wear the parts out that caused the axle to fail. I would consult a mechanic. If the part was going to fail in the next 40 miles, it was just your bad luck to be driving it when it did.

You do what you think is best, I think your buddy is trying to railroad you.

Be as wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove.

KCKC · January 15th, 2009, 01:06 AM

By driving your friends car in a careful and respectful manner and having the wheel fall of after arriving back at his place you may have saved him from a hwy accident where he or someone else could have been seriously injured.

The wheel didn't fall off because you were driving the car - it fell off from being driven the total miles on the car. The wheel doesn't have a preference for any particular driver.

If you feel compelled to pay something pay the percentage of the bill that corresponds to the percentage of miles you drove that night in relation to total miles on the car.
kc

ejb222 · January 15th, 2009, 01:01 PM

It's interesting to see the variety of opinions. I worked it out with my roommate. I will pay as much as he asks...which will not be much knowing him. I guess I view it this way:

I had my own car. I asked to borrow his because it has heat unlike mine. I asked for the favor and and therefore took on responsibility for it. If he had asked me to take care of it for him...the situation would be different. I think God is teaching me to be wise about borrowing property and making sure I can assume full responsibility for it before I ask.

And I do agree that the New Testiment is about love and not lawfulness. But the New testiment also is about Jesus who came to fullfill the law not abolish it. To identify the heart behind the law. He also frees us from the law...but in relation to salvation not necassarily obediance. AMEN!

But thanks again...God has taken care of the situation and all is square.

Guitarzan13 - you're absolutely right it's not always fun...but I don't think any of us would trade the hard times in for the world. :)

mattyj · January 15th, 2009, 07:53 PM

haha, imagine doing donuts on a donkey!

sorry, that's not relevant. it was just a silly thought that popped into my head when you said he was doing donuts, and someone mentioned the donkey verse.

giantslayer · January 16th, 2009, 01:32 AM

Glad it sounds like you're getting it worked out. I could see decent cases being made either way. I do like how you're trying to live by the Good Book, even if it isn't exactly what you'd like to hear.

ejb222 · January 16th, 2009, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by giantslayer

Glad it sounds like you're getting it worked out. I could see decent cases being made either way. I do like how you're trying to live by the Good Book, even if it isn't exactly what you'd like to hear.

It's the only way to live

after all the Bible doesn't lie

sax4blues · January 16th, 2009, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ejb222

I think God is teaching me to be wise about borrowing property and making sure I can assume full responsibility for it before I ask.

My parents drilled into me, "Never a borrower or lender be.", and now I'm trying teach this to my son. And it is primarily your situation that I think about when I talk with him. It just always seems to happen this way and everyone feels bad. I also think there is something good in being content with what we have. So you have a car without heat, be content in that, there is always something better and sometimes when we borrow it is out of envy.

ejb222 · January 16th, 2009, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sax4blues

My parents drilled into me, "Never a borrower or lender be.", and now I'm trying teach this to my son. And it is primarily your situation that I think about when I talk with him. It just always seems to happen this way and everyone feels bad. I also think there is something good in being content with what we have. So you have a car without heat, be content in that, there is always something better and sometimes when we borrow it is out of envy.

Yeah, it's a tough lesson to learn on your own...sometimes coming at the cost of financial termoil.

I'm not sure how to even approach that one to kids... but I'm not a parent so I don't know how to teach kids much of anything

ravindave_3600 · January 18th, 2009, 10:46 PM

If an animal is in your care and it dies, the case is easily made that you could have taken better care of it. Were you overworking it? Underfeeding it? Not giving it water? Beating it? A mechanical device, on the other hand, wears out in a very different way and, in my opinion, is not covered by the verses mentioned.

A few years ago I loaned a friend a car to drive to a retreat. It was about 300 miles from here when the oil pump went out. Before she noticed the idiot light, the engine seized up. Should she have noticed the light? Probably. Was it her fault the oil pump went out? Certainly not; the car was 10 years old. She arranged to have the car towed back home, and I thought that was fair to both sides.

At the same time, you have to perform the righteousness you are led to do, as circumstances and relationships are different for each of us; only love is the constant.

And now I'll say (to keep the thread cool by the rules) be careful who you loan your guitar to! You never know if they'll spin donuts on it!

ejb222 · January 19th, 2009, 09:39 AM

I certainly hope someone doesn't spin donuts on my guitar!! I don't even want to think about it....Oh the humanity!!!

AmericanStd. · January 19th, 2009, 10:09 AM

Quote:

My parents drilled into me, "Never a borrower or lender be."

Willie Shakespeare

sonserve · August 19th, 2009, 04:25 PM

I would have to wonder about the effects donuts and banging into snow banks would have on a differential, that's what the axle was attached to. Wow, I wish you the best on this one, but you know if you mistreated the car. It ain't a farm animal, it's a machine.

January 14th, 2009, 10:12 AM	#1 (permalink)
ejb222 Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Massachusetts Age: 29 Posts: 344 4 Photos	Between friends So this has nothing to do with Teles, I know. But I was hoping for some biblical perspective to this situation I'm in. So I borrowed my friend/roommate's Honda Accord last night to head to church. I drove the 20 miles there and 20 miles back as asked...respectfully and carefully. But the moment I pull into the apartment complex, the tire literally falls off. The axel pulled right out of the transmission. So I ran up to the apartment and let him know and had it towed. So then he interviewed me about how I drove the car. I reassured him that the car just broke. I didn't mistreat it in anyway. Not even close to the way he was doing donuts in it the other day in the snow, hitting snow banks. But now he expects me to help with the cost of repair. I admit that I had responsibility for the car while I drove it. But this was beyoind my control and could have happened to anyone drivnig the car. Am I really responsible to help pay for the repairs? Your biblical opinion would really help. I just want to do the right thing. Thanks

January 14th, 2009, 03:12 PM	#3 (permalink)
Stuco Friend of Leo's Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: GA Posts: 4,228	You should help out a little with the repairs, maybe 20% or so. __________________ -"You do not merely want to be considered just the best of the best. You want to be considered the only ones who do what you do" J. Garcia

January 14th, 2009, 04:14 PM	#5 (permalink)
guitarzan13 Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: LaGrange, GA Age: 44 Posts: 1,806 8 Photos	Sometimes being a Christian....well......is not as much fun as other times..... __________________ Practice make permanent!!!!....Perfect practice makes perfect!!! Chris B. www.neonjones.com

January 15th, 2009, 01:06 AM	#12 (permalink)
KCKC Tele-Meister Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Hingham, MA Age: 46 Posts: 294	By driving your friends car in a careful and respectful manner and having the wheel fall of after arriving back at his place you may have saved him from a hwy accident where he or someone else could have been seriously injured. The wheel didn't fall off because you were driving the car - it fell off from being driven the total miles on the car. The wheel doesn't have a preference for any particular driver. If you feel compelled to pay something pay the percentage of the bill that corresponds to the percentage of miles you drove that night in relation to total miles on the car. kc Last edited by KCKC; January 15th, 2009 at 01:09 AM. Reason: additional thought

January 18th, 2009, 10:46 PM	#19 (permalink)
ravindave_3600 Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Boise, USA Posts: 1,230	If an animal is in your care and it dies, the case is easily made that you could have taken better care of it. Were you overworking it? Underfeeding it? Not giving it water? Beating it? A mechanical device, on the other hand, wears out in a very different way and, in my opinion, is not covered by the verses mentioned. A few years ago I loaned a friend a car to drive to a retreat. It was about 300 miles from here when the oil pump went out. Before she noticed the idiot light, the engine seized up. Should she have noticed the light? Probably. Was it her fault the oil pump went out? Certainly not; the car was 10 years old. She arranged to have the car towed back home, and I thought that was fair to both sides. At the same time, you have to perform the righteousness you are led to do, as circumstances and relationships are different for each of us; only love is the constant. And now I'll say (to keep the thread cool by the rules) be careful who you loan your guitar to! You never know if they'll spin donuts on it! __________________ Want my guitar to sound like BBQ tastes!

January 14th, 2009, 03:07 PM	#2 (permalink)
giantslayer Tele-Holic Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Age: 23 Posts: 511	Well, you said you want a Biblical opinion... Off the top of my head, the verse that comes to mind is Exodus 22:14: "If a man borrows an animal from his neighbor and it is injured or dies while the owner is not present, he must make restitution." I'll let you decide how well that does or doesn't apply to your situation.

January 14th, 2009, 04:06 PM	#4 (permalink)
ejb222 Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Massachusetts Age: 29 Posts: 344 4 Photos	I appreciate your help. I do feel partly repsonsible as I didn't have to borrow the car. But once the notion was mentioned that I should pay for all the repairs. I was put off. I normally wouldn't mind offering to pay for some of the cost. But I was really struck by the manner in which he damanded that I pay before the circumstances were discussed. But yes I will pray about it in hopes that I do the right thing. Thanks for your help and the bible verse.

January 14th, 2009, 04:17 PM	#6 (permalink)
ejb222 Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Massachusetts Age: 29 Posts: 344 4 Photos	Exodus 22:10-14 10 "If a man gives a donkey, an ox, a sheep or any other animal to his neighbor for safekeeping and it dies or is injured or is taken away while no one is looking, 11 the issue between them will be settled by the taking of an oath before the LORD that the neighbor did not lay hands on the other person's property. The owner is to accept this, and no restitution is required. 12 But if the animal was stolen from the neighbor, he must make restitution to the owner. 13 If it was torn to pieces by a wild animal, he shall bring in the remains as evidence and he will not be required to pay for the torn animal. 14 "If a man borrows an animal from his neighbor and it is injured or dies while the owner is not present, he must make restitution. 15 But if the owner is with the animal, the borrower will not have to pay. If the animal was hired, the money paid for the hire covers the loss. I read this differently than you quoted originally. I see that if property is borrowed and is lost without neglect (verse 14 and 15) or theft, than no restitution is required. I was present and mindful of my friends property and with out fault to the damage. Therefore no restitution is owed. But I will more than likely offer to help as it was generous of him to lend me the car for the night. But if I'm correct in interpretation, I am free from restitution to him.

January 14th, 2009, 04:25 PM	#8 (permalink)
ejb222 Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Massachusetts Age: 29 Posts: 344 4 Photos	Actually I was wrong... according to this scripture I do own the cost. Then that's what I must do. Thanks again for the verse. Thanks to God for truth, no matter how hard it may be to accept.

January 14th, 2009, 07:29 PM	#10 (permalink)
MickM Tele-Holic Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Hbg. PA Age: 52 Posts: 839	What does the bible say about a man who abuses his animal, doing donuts on his ox and generally whipping the p--s out of it then lending it to a friend who is in possesion of it when it expires? I would remind your friend of his recent treatment of the vehicle which as you described will definitely cause an axle to fail/fall out. Also ask him how he'd feel if you would've been injured or killed driving on the highway when the axle fell out due to his abusive treatment of said vehicle. Then tell him that even though you didn't abuse the car you'll pay for half of the bill.

January 14th, 2009, 07:30 PM	#11 (permalink)
AmericanStd. Tele-Meister Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Charlotte Posts: 305	If you ask me, you didn't put all the miles on it that it took to wear the parts out that caused the axle to fail. I would consult a mechanic. If the part was going to fail in the next 40 miles, it was just your bad luck to be driving it when it did. You do what you think is best, I think your buddy is trying to railroad you. Be as wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove.

January 15th, 2009, 01:01 PM	#13 (permalink)
ejb222 Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Massachusetts Age: 29 Posts: 344 4 Photos	It's interesting to see the variety of opinions. I worked it out with my roommate. I will pay as much as he asks...which will not be much knowing him. I guess I view it this way: I had my own car. I asked to borrow his because it has heat unlike mine. I asked for the favor and and therefore took on responsibility for it. If he had asked me to take care of it for him...the situation would be different. I think God is teaching me to be wise about borrowing property and making sure I can assume full responsibility for it before I ask. And I do agree that the New Testiment is about love and not lawfulness. But the New testiment also is about Jesus who came to fullfill the law not abolish it. To identify the heart behind the law. He also frees us from the law...but in relation to salvation not necassarily obediance. AMEN! But thanks again...God has taken care of the situation and all is square. Guitarzan13 - you're absolutely right it's not always fun...but I don't think any of us would trade the hard times in for the world. :)

January 15th, 2009, 07:53 PM	#14 (permalink)
mattyj TDPRI Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Sydney, Australia Age: 28 Posts: 85	haha, imagine doing donuts on a donkey! sorry, that's not relevant. it was just a silly thought that popped into my head when you said he was doing donuts, and someone mentioned the donkey verse.

January 16th, 2009, 01:32 AM	#15 (permalink)
giantslayer Tele-Holic Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Age: 23 Posts: 511	Glad it sounds like you're getting it worked out. I could see decent cases being made either way. I do like how you're trying to live by the Good Book, even if it isn't exactly what you'd like to hear.

January 19th, 2009, 09:39 AM	#20 (permalink)
ejb222 Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Massachusetts Age: 29 Posts: 344 4 Photos	I certainly hope someone doesn't spin donuts on my guitar!! I don't even want to think about it....Oh the humanity!!!

August 19th, 2009, 04:25 PM	#22 (permalink)
sonserve Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: The Colony, Tx. Age: 54 Posts: 223	I would have to wonder about the effects donuts and banging into snow banks would have on a differential, that's what the axle was attached to. Wow, I wish you the best on this one, but you know if you mistreated the car. It ain't a farm animal, it's a machine.

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