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AmericanStd. · January 3rd, 2009, 02:46 PM

I have been reading some of these threads, and they all seem to share a common theme - there's always one guy in every crowd trying to create the worship team in his image.

The first worship team I was on was run by the guy who owned the PA and mics. He had a rotten temper and more people quit because of him than stayed, but nobody in authority would ever say anything to him because he was a tithing member and he owned the sound system.

I have been moving around quite a bit over the past 15 years because of the changing job situation, and at the next church I went to, it turned out that the Worship team leader was an old friend of my wife's. We jammed a couple of times, but when he asked me to join, I told him that I had had enough of it, and besides, I was in a secular blues band. He then asked me if I would come to practice. That I could do, so I practiced with them until one Sunday, between vacations and injuries, I was pressed into service. The rest is history - I was on the team until I moved again.

Fast forwarding to the last worship team I was on (I have been on five altogether, not counting the bluegrass gospel groups) I was involved during one of the biggest, nastiest church splits I have ever seen (and I have seen more than one). The worship team disbanded and never looked back.

I had my wife's old friend (who had been the worship leader who invited me to come to practice with them) call me the other day. He's now a priest, and the worship ministry has been giving him migranes for the past six months. There have been people jockeying for position and trying to get the leader's job, going to the chief priest (and the Pharisees!) behind his back and causing trouble.

He has decided to give it up and concentrate on doing priest things, and is even talking to the Bishop about getting his own church. (He has hinted strongly about wanting me to come back to his church to lead worship, and I told him to find me a job and I'd consider it

)

I have come to the conclusion that worship team politics is no different from secular band politics, but it throws you for a loop because you expect more from people in a ministry, and no secular musician as bad as some of the worship team players I have worked with would ever be able to throw their weight around in a secular band - they'd be tossed out on their ears whether they owned the PA or not.

What say you?

(P.S. - that last church split pretty much put me off of the worship ministry and church in general)

sax4blues · January 3rd, 2009, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmericanStd.

I have come to the conclusion that worship team politics is no different from secular band politics, but it throws you for a loop because you expect more from people in a ministry

I went to a hospital and was surprised to find a bunch of sick people. I thought hospitals made people well? I'll keep searching to find a hospital without the sick people.

Aaron G · January 3rd, 2009, 03:58 PM

I've experienced the same type of things. Whether it was Worship Teams or Christian bands, I was disappointed that there were the same situations to handle as in secular bands. The real difference is supposed to be how we react toward each other. Sadly, it ended up too similar.

I lead worship in a smaller church now by myself (or a bass player with me). I'm happy with that and don't know that I would get into a large worship team situation again. If I was at a larger church (which my wife would like to belong to), I'd rather take my place in the congregation.

klasaine · January 3rd, 2009, 05:42 PM

Quote: AmericanStd. "I have come to the conclusion that worship team politics is no different from secular band politics, but it throws you for a loop because you expect more from people in a ministry, and no secular musician as bad as some of the worship team players I have worked with would ever be able to throw their weight around in a secular band - they'd be tossed out on their ears whether they owned the PA or not.

What say you?"

Lol! In a secular band I guess we don't have to 'turn the other cheek'. You get one chance to take over and it's pretty much the law of the jungle at that point. I've witnessed equal amounts of politics, immaturity, general weirdness and jockeying in both arenas (amateur, pro, catholic, protestant, jewish and even buddhist) - no more, no less.

People are people. Read the newspaper or read 'the book' - we don't change much.

AmericanStd. · January 3rd, 2009, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sax4blues

I went to a hospital and was surprised to find a bunch of sick people.

The people who work there aren't.

getbent · January 3rd, 2009, 06:45 PM

humans are fallen by nature. To expect that someone who has faith is by their nature a better behaving person is naive. Love them and respect them and know that despite their station, they are just humans making human mistakes.

Find me a church and I'll show you a roomful of sinners... and anyone who doesn't think so is kinda missing the doctrine.

sax4blues · January 3rd, 2009, 09:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sax4blues
I went to a hospital and was surprised to find a bunch of sick people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmericanStd.

The people who work there aren't.

Really, people that work at hospitals are never sick? They never come to work if they are taking medication for high blood pressure, or asprin for a headache? They spend all day with their hands on sick people but have an immune system that keeps them perfect?

My poor analogy was to say that everyone is imperfect, including everyone that is in a church. God is not calling the perfect to fill his churches, he is calling the imperfect.

AmericanStd. · January 3rd, 2009, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by getbent

To expect that someone who has faith is by their nature a better behaving person is naive.

I agree with you. The whole point of the thread is that being in a worship team isn't much different from being in a secular band. I suppose it is naive to think it wouldn't be.

Matthew 10:16 comes to mind:

Quote:

“Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents and harmless as doves”

AmericanStd. · January 3rd, 2009, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sax4blues

My poor analogy was to say that everyone is imperfect, including everyone that is in a church.

I am not disputing that. I even said as much at the end of my post.

getbent · January 3rd, 2009, 10:18 PM

americanstd, the chief difference I would see and really try to reinforce as MY reason for playing in the band is the worship piece and the idea that the band is in service to a calling other than more secular pursuits of A) the music being of value to the band members and B) being worthy of pay.... these two core reasons for having a secular band should probably not be a focus of a worship band.

The fact that the goals get messed up is just the human nature part that we seem to all agree upon.....

I vote for remaining hopeful.

endzone · January 4th, 2009, 01:04 AM

The only thing that you can control is YOU and why YOU are playing in the worship band? You should be focused on one thing only...bringing worship to God. My experience is that ususally the people that don't have their heart in the right place don't last long. God has a way of putting the right people in place. I play in a large church worship band. It's been nothing but a spiritual blessing for over three years. Everyone's heart is right, we're close, and we pray routinely for each member and that the band will be used to honor Him. We spend the first 30 minutes or so of every rehearsal sharing and listening to prayer requests. Then we pray for each other. Needless to say, we have all become quite close. We have a leader and we're all quite content with him and his abilities and his heart.

I would hate to be in a situation where there's strife and egos. I agree with the OP, you go to church in hopes of getting away from this type of thing. Unfortunately, a lot of people can't seem to leave it at home. I recommend praying for your band, it's members and asking God to change everyone's heart.

DADGAD · January 4th, 2009, 12:49 PM

Where people gather, there will always be conflicts. Whether due to ego or musical ability, the possibilities are endless. In a perfect world, you or I could play in the band and focus our priorities on "The One important thing" and making the other band members sound good. That would take ego and power out of the equation and get priorities in order. If only everyone could do that.

I've been on WT hiatus since September but am starting to think about going back.

AmericanStd. · January 4th, 2009, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by endzone

The only thing that you can control is YOU and why YOU are playing in the worship band?

I am not playing in one. I am just observing the trials of the people who are.

Having played for over 40 years, I am a pretty decent guitarist, but I know my limitations and one of my limitations is that I don't have the patience for that kind of nonsense. I gigged solo for years, or with one other player because of it.

I have never elbowed my way onto a worship team - I am usually asked to play. I look at that as a sign I am supposed to be there. However, there are people who want to be on the worship team to fulfill some teenage fantasy about being in a band, because they want to be up front, or because they just want to play and don't care about the worship part.

That's just a fact of life.

getbent · January 4th, 2009, 01:21 PM

On one hand, vanity is vanity....

on the other... I am not so harsh on the teenage fantasy thing... growth for people comes in all varieties... some in fulfillment, some in failure... I try really hard to see how things play out.... some of the squabbles that get chronicled here provide great growth experiences for either the people who experience them or the people who observe them...

I have a very good friend of 20 years or so, who is pw leader... he loves music and his songs number in the hundreds... he is a very very great guy... we played in a couple of bands together in Colorado... I cannot describe how frustrating he could be in a performance context... but his PW stuff is really cool and loose... but, I have laughed that when he is performing he is channeling his 'inner Bono' as that singer is kind of his model for what is great performance.

It is, in a sense, a fantasy of his to lead a holy band and to sing the word and to celebrate it.... so, I'd guess there is some degree of vanity to it... but, the net effect on the audience is positive. Even the old ranchers smile and say, "That David shore does love to sing!"

To paint a picture of what his deal is... if you ever saw the original 'Vanishing Point' it is kind of like the desert church revival scene... very Delaney and Bonnie gospel with the same hippie twinge.... but, soulful and heartfelt. But even in Dave's church they have all the humans with all their ideas of the 'best way' to worship and that is just gonna differ.....

I have come to believe that I can deal with quite a bit of nonsense for a few moments of joy... and after the many frustrating times with Dave (he loved to change keys and songs in the middle of them) he called me a few years ago and asked me to help him out on bass for a sunday... I had so much fun and loved the songs and just the overall vibe... but, I am SURE that there were people who were of differing opinions that day...

I don't know whether or not elbowing into a pw team is bad or good... it seems that ambition gets judged kinda arbitrarily sometimes... but, if a guys heart is good and he just wants to play for the people and share in his way... I see no harm in earnestly asking to partake...

mickeydean · January 4th, 2009, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by getbent

humans are fallen by nature. To expect that someone who has faith is by their nature a better behaving person is naive. Love them and respect them and know that despite their station, they are just humans making human mistakes.

Find me a church and I'll show you a roomful of sinners... and anyone who doesn't think so is kinda missing the doctrine.

i have to disagree.

the people i know who have faith really do behave better and i admire them.

the people who simply have religion and think that's faith on the other hand....

AmericanStd. · January 4th, 2009, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by getbent

On one hand, vanity is vanity....

on the other... I am not so harsh on the teenage fantasy thing... growth for people comes in all varieties... some in fulfillment, some in failure... I try really hard to see how things play out.... some of the squabbles that get chronicled here provide great growth experiences for either the people who experience them or the people who observe them...

I have a very good friend of 20 years or so, who is pw leader... he loves music and his songs number in the hundreds... he is a very very great guy... we played in a couple of bands together in Colorado... I cannot describe how frustrating he could be in a performance context... but his PW stuff is really cool and loose... but, I have laughed that when he is performing he is channeling his 'inner Bono' as that singer is kind of his model for what is great performance.

It is, in a sense, a fantasy of his to lead a holy band and to sing the word and to celebrate it.... so, I'd guess there is some degree of vanity to it... but, the net effect on the audience is positive. Even the old ranchers smile and say, "That David shore does love to sing!"

To paint a picture of what his deal is... if you ever saw the original 'Vanishing Point' it is kind of like the desert church revival scene... very Delaney and Bonnie gospel with the same hippie twinge.... but, soulful and heartfelt. But even in Dave's church they have all the humans with all their ideas of the 'best way' to worship and that is just gonna differ.....

I have come to believe that I can deal with quite a bit of nonsense for a few moments of joy... and after the many frustrating times with Dave (he loved to change keys and songs in the middle of them) he called me a few years ago and asked me to help him out on bass for a sunday... I had so much fun and loved the songs and just the overall vibe... but, I am SURE that there were people who were of differing opinions that day...

I don't know whether or not elbowing into a pw team is bad or good... it seems that ambition gets judged kinda arbitrarily sometimes... but, if a guys heart is good and he just wants to play for the people and share in his way... I see no harm in earnestly asking to partake...

Oh, there's a lot of truth in that, and I am old enough to be able to take people one at time, which I usually do.

Like you, I have a friend who drives me nuts at times while trying to play with him, but he can't even walk and chew gum at the same time, let alone stay on the beat. But he loves the Lord and I help him out whenever asked.

The people who "elbow their way onto a team" are usually the ones who give people like my priest friend migranes. When I was leading worship I made it a point to not exclude anyone who sincerely wanted to worship. But the operative phrase is "wanted to worship", and that calls for discernment on the part of the worship leader. After all, that's what the team is there for - to worship, as someone has already pointed out, and these people don't come from nowhere - you know them from having seen them at church.

giantslayer · January 5th, 2009, 03:05 AM

The fact is that there are an awful lot of folks in the church who don't seem to act all that differently from the secular folks. One statistic that attests to that is that the divorce rate in the church is almost the same as outside the church. There is something fundamental that is missing from the lives of many christians. Church/band politics are often simply another manifestation of the same problem. What is missing? I could spitball and throw some ideas out, but I don't know if I have it pegged at this point. I do know that the ugly side of our human nature (or "flesh," if you like Biblical terminology) is always there and we all have to fight it if we don't want to end up the same as everyone else. I do know that there are some folks who are doing a decent job of walking in the new nature that Paul talks about, rather than the old nature. No one is perfect, of course, and this battle won't ever end in this life. In my own life, I've noticed a negative correlation between how much time I spend with God praying and reading the Word and how much the ugly side of my flesh shows itself.

Jesus said that the greatest commandment was to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and that the second commandment was to love your neighbor as yourself. If we all did that, we wouldn't have these problems.

sax4blues · January 5th, 2009, 03:17 AM

Have we considered that we don't know who in the "secular" world is christian and who isn't. Many people that we run into everywhere; work, store, bands, are christians, even some of the poorly behaving. Maybe that secular world would be completely out of control without the guidance of the church. Atheistic governments will often tolerate religion because they recognize the calming effect it has on populations.

So the question could just as easily be why are people outside of churches ever nice?

getbent · January 5th, 2009, 03:20 AM

those are good questions but lead us outside the scope of the forum...

That set of questions probably needs to be discussed via pm or on another board.

giantslayer · January 5th, 2009, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by getbent

those are good questions but lead us outside the scope of the forum...

That set of questions probably needs to be discussed via pm or on another board.

I agree. I wasn't trying to open up a new vein of discussion, just to make a point that ugly church politics is a manifestation of the problem of our selfish human nature, a problem that all too often seems to run just as rampant among Christians as non-Christians.

getbent · January 5th, 2009, 10:14 PM

yes.. yes.. I was referencing sax4blues great questions...

I just didn't want to have to close the thread.... it is a good topic...

leonard d rock · January 6th, 2009, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmericanStd.

- there's always one guy in every crowd trying to create the worship team in his image.

-happens to me sometimes

isnt that what is called a messianic/creator complex or something? i think theres also a passage or two that can be quoted to support that.

franchelB · January 6th, 2009, 03:13 PM

dealing with regular band politics or church band politics!
While I consider doing music ministry as my tithing to the church, it's very discouraging trying to deal with its "politicians". I just have to focus even harder that my "calling" is in "music ministry"!

Doug 54 · January 7th, 2009, 01:01 PM

People are peoples wherever you go.

Wrapping it all up in the environment of a place of worship does not exclude that dictum.
In fact that may make it harder to face getting irked at.... "my brother"

Joseph's Dad · January 10th, 2009, 11:44 AM

Speaking as a pastor, I've seen exactly what y'all are talking about here.

(Not to start a new thread, but the root cause may be one reason we lose so many pastors on a regular basis.)

Back to this thread: one of my favorite definitions of church is "Sinners Anonymous." As in, "Hi, my name's Joe, and I'm a sinner...saved by grace."

Welcome home! As the early Methodists used to say, "How is it with your soul?"

ce24 · January 10th, 2009, 12:13 PM

Isn't biblical tithing meant to be fiscal support for the Church? and Ministry spiritual support. If every one just used their personal ministry and called it tithing there wouldn't be a Church left anywhere. it's the first 10th of your take, before or after taxes is a personal call but...Without fiscal tithing there is no money for ministries........

Cheers
ce24

AmericanStd. · January 12th, 2009, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Speaking as a pastor, I've seen exactly what y'all are talking about here.

(Not to start a new thread, but the root cause may be one reason we lose so many pastors on a regular basis.)

Update:

Since I posted this my priest friend got so sick of the politics he resigned from both the music ministry and the assistant pastorship at that church.

He is supposed to meet his Bishop tomorrow to discuss a new church plant. I just hope the Bish doesn't hold it against him that he quit, but after 17 years I think you could say he gave it a fair shot, and the Archdeacon has been in on the goings on, so it's not like they didn't see it coming.

Danno · February 4th, 2009, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ce24

Isn't biblical tithing meant to be fiscal support for the Church? and Ministry spiritual support. If every one just used their personal ministry and called it tithing there wouldn't be a Church left anywhere. it's the first 10th of your take, before or after taxes is a personal call but...Without fiscal tithing there is no money for ministries........

Cheers
ce24

+1. And I speak as one who did not tithe regularly nor appropriately. My role in our praise team (bass) is roughly like having a part time job hourly-wise. I love being there and it really has worked on my heart. Elders, deacons, other ministries are not salaried either and they tithe as well.

Give generously - talents, resources, money. I don't think my bass playing would be fetching 10% of my salary a month besides.

PraiseCaster · February 4th, 2009, 04:59 PM

Can I take a different view on this?

Imho, there needs to be a leader, and in the "beggining" he/she needs to provide the direction that the team is going in. This again, imho, would entail his/her stamp or style on the music. Too me it makes sense for this to happen in this way, in the beginning.

BUT, as the team develops and matures and integrates with one another, that same leader has to guide them to "melding" together, and develop a new direction. One that begins to bring the teams chemistry to the forefront. A leadership that helps bring out the best potential from everyone, reminding them that we do it not for our glory, but for His Glory.

Does that make sense?

This is where my team is at now. We have forged our own sound, and really, I see no one that stands out above the others, except slightly, the team leader, whom we all support, because he in turn, supports us.

I have d witnessed the teams growth not only as a band, but in our relationships, our ministries, and how Praise and Worship has come alive at our church: Everyone in the congregation used to just sit on their hands, and only one or two unashamed souls would clap or lift there hands up and sing out loud. Now, I dont think there are any that dont clap, lift hands and sing. If I may, its taken on a whole new "spirit" about it.

Now, I have also been on teams where it was most notably a dictatorial leadership, and it seemed to either stroke the leaders ego, or it was all they where comfortable with, and would not change for anyone. Usually, those teams where ripe with strife, ego clashes, and usually stagnant as far as P&W went.

Oh, and just my two cents worth:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sax4blues

I went to a hospital and was surprised to find a bunch of sick people. I thought hospitals made people well? I'll keep searching to find a hospital without the sick people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmericanStd.

The people who work there aren't.

Well, the people that work there are just as susceptible to getting sick as the ones they are aiding. And in church, the real doctor is The One were lifting the songs of Praise up to, and He doesnt get sick, nor is he susceptible too it..........

But I understand both posts here, and agree with both.

ChurchPlayer · February 4th, 2009, 06:26 PM

Couple takes here, and my apologies for restating anything that was already said, but it's easier than quoting from 10 different posts.

First off, I have to thank God for the people we have in our ministry. The very idea of hostile takeovers and power struggles are things I've almost never had to deal with, at least among team members - power struggles with the Pastor are another thing (we've had them and we've had to have sit downs with him and essentially say, "You're the guy, and if you want it your way that's fine, but know that if that's the case then you need to start looking elsewhere for a leader", which usually refocuses everyone - not that I'm advocating it as a solution).

One of the things I took to heart early on in my ministry life is the lesson of John Wimber, founder of the Vineyard churches - God will give you something for a season, and that season may be long or short, but you need to commit to it fully, yet with a soft hold so that you're willing to give it up when it's time. I lead with a good friend and musical brother and we struggle amongst ourselves often with songs and musical direction, but we're both committed to each other and the ministry first, and our vision second, so when we butt heads we take a step back and both let go of the reigns, laying aside our particular desire for the moment so we can revisit it fresh down the road. Sometimes it's just a weariness of mind and spirit that has us forcing something new when it's not time (usually the case with us) while other times it's just a matter that one of us is dog tired and needs the other to take up the slack. In either case, it's important to lean on those around you when you need to, and let them know that it's appreciated.

The biggest thing in any ministry, music or otherwise, is the death of ego - which I believe is a REAL hard thing for musicians, 'cause lets face it, most of us wouldn't play in front of people if we didn't have enough ego to want to be seen. God doesn't honor pride, and when it creeps in it's going to create that "fall" He promised. We need to recognize it and repent of it before it does, even if it means giving up control. God will get His way eventually, and you can be the guy who gets asked to sit at the head table rather than the one who's asked to give up their seat.

Parma_TeleMon · February 9th, 2009, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChurchPlayer

The biggest thing in any ministry, music or otherwise, is the death of ego - which I believe is a REAL hard thing for musicians, 'cause lets face it, most of us wouldn't play in front of people if we didn't have enough ego to want to be seen.

+1, my brother!

I attend a church where we have a pretty unique problem: four full worship teams for adult church, plus our kids' church "farm system". Musical direction for the congregation is handled by two of the team leaders, but there's plenty of freedom within the teams. That's rare. One of my best friends had to quit a paid gig as worship leader at his church because of style differences with his senior pastor. But he still leads worship there from time to time. Our team leaders have had to boot some pretty decent musicians from time to time because they weren't committed to the team and just wanted to jam.

klasaine · February 9th, 2009, 02:17 PM

ChurchPlayer quote - "The biggest thing in any ministry, music or otherwise, is the death of ego - which I believe is a REAL hard thing for musicians, 'cause lets face it, most of us wouldn't play in front of people if we didn't have enough ego to want to be seen. God doesn't honor pride, and when it creeps in it's going to create that "fall" He promised. We need to recognize it and repent of it before it does, even if it means giving up control. God will get His way eventually, and you can be the guy who gets asked to sit at the head table rather than the one who's asked to give up their seat."

Which is probably one of the reasons why, and a very good reason too, why many churches hire and pay outside musicians (sorry to reference an older but ongoing thread and discussion) for services. Generally speaking it's much easier for a pro to leave his or her ego behind and just get on with the business of making the music sound and feel good. I guess it ends up being less hassle, less stressful and probably cheaper in the long run - and all that is more conducive to actual worship.

XinTX · February 9th, 2009, 02:24 PM

Any church you get into, and any PW band, will likely have members who are at a different stage of their spiritual growth. So the guy who 'elbows his way in' this year, may be someone who comes to the point of joining a PW band out of sheer joy ten years after. We all have to take our steps along the path. But we're not all at the same place at the same time. It does try the patience.

giantslayer · February 10th, 2009, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChurchPlayer

The biggest thing in any ministry, music or otherwise, is the death of ego - which I believe is a REAL hard thing for musicians, 'cause lets face it, most of us wouldn't play in front of people if we didn't have enough ego to want to be seen. God doesn't honor pride, and when it creeps in it's going to create that "fall" He promised. We need to recognize it and repent of it before it does, even if it means giving up control.

+1. God has had to put me through seasons of humbling and staying off stage. He seems to be done for the moment and letting me play, but who knows if that means "done" or "done for now." I am also aware that pride and ego could creep back in.

January 3rd, 2009, 02:46 PM	#1 (permalink)
AmericanStd. Tele-Meister Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Charlotte Posts: 305	Worship ministry politics I have been reading some of these threads, and they all seem to share a common theme - there's always one guy in every crowd trying to create the worship team in his image. The first worship team I was on was run by the guy who owned the PA and mics. He had a rotten temper and more people quit because of him than stayed, but nobody in authority would ever say anything to him because he was a tithing member and he owned the sound system. I have been moving around quite a bit over the past 15 years because of the changing job situation, and at the next church I went to, it turned out that the Worship team leader was an old friend of my wife's. We jammed a couple of times, but when he asked me to join, I told him that I had had enough of it, and besides, I was in a secular blues band. He then asked me if I would come to practice. That I could do, so I practiced with them until one Sunday, between vacations and injuries, I was pressed into service. The rest is history - I was on the team until I moved again. Fast forwarding to the last worship team I was on (I have been on five altogether, not counting the bluegrass gospel groups) I was involved during one of the biggest, nastiest church splits I have ever seen (and I have seen more than one). The worship team disbanded and never looked back. I had my wife's old friend (who had been the worship leader who invited me to come to practice with them) call me the other day. He's now a priest, and the worship ministry has been giving him migranes for the past six months. There have been people jockeying for position and trying to get the leader's job, going to the chief priest (and the Pharisees!) behind his back and causing trouble. He has decided to give it up and concentrate on doing priest things, and is even talking to the Bishop about getting his own church. (He has hinted strongly about wanting me to come back to his church to lead worship, and I told him to find me a job and I'd consider it ) I have come to the conclusion that worship team politics is no different from secular band politics, but it throws you for a loop because you expect more from people in a ministry, and no secular musician as bad as some of the worship team players I have worked with would ever be able to throw their weight around in a secular band - they'd be tossed out on their ears whether they owned the PA or not. What say you? (P.S. - that last church split pretty much put me off of the worship ministry and church in general)

January 3rd, 2009, 06:45 PM	#6 (permalink)
getbent Moderator Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: San Benito County, California Posts: 13,670 37 Photos	humans are fallen by nature. To expect that someone who has faith is by their nature a better behaving person is naive. Love them and respect them and know that despite their station, they are just humans making human mistakes. Find me a church and I'll show you a roomful of sinners... and anyone who doesn't think so is kinda missing the doctrine. __________________ We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are

January 3rd, 2009, 10:18 PM	#10 (permalink)
getbent Moderator Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: San Benito County, California Posts: 13,670 37 Photos	americanstd, the chief difference I would see and really try to reinforce as MY reason for playing in the band is the worship piece and the idea that the band is in service to a calling other than more secular pursuits of A) the music being of value to the band members and B) being worthy of pay.... these two core reasons for having a secular band should probably not be a focus of a worship band. The fact that the goals get messed up is just the human nature part that we seem to all agree upon..... I vote for remaining hopeful. __________________ We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are

January 4th, 2009, 01:04 AM	#11 (permalink)
endzone Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Louisiana Age: 53 Posts: 1,874 42 Photos	The only thing that you can control is YOU and why YOU are playing in the worship band? You should be focused on one thing only...bringing worship to God. My experience is that ususally the people that don't have their heart in the right place don't last long. God has a way of putting the right people in place. I play in a large church worship band. It's been nothing but a spiritual blessing for over three years. Everyone's heart is right, we're close, and we pray routinely for each member and that the band will be used to honor Him. We spend the first 30 minutes or so of every rehearsal sharing and listening to prayer requests. Then we pray for each other. Needless to say, we have all become quite close. We have a leader and we're all quite content with him and his abilities and his heart. I would hate to be in a situation where there's strife and egos. I agree with the OP, you go to church in hopes of getting away from this type of thing. Unfortunately, a lot of people can't seem to leave it at home. I recommend praying for your band, it's members and asking God to change everyone's heart. __________________ *I'm Makin Progress*

January 4th, 2009, 12:49 PM	#12 (permalink)
DADGAD Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Palmdale, CA Posts: 829	Where people gather, there will always be conflicts. Whether due to ego or musical ability, the possibilities are endless. In a perfect world, you or I could play in the band and focus our priorities on "The One important thing" and making the other band members sound good. That would take ego and power out of the equation and get priorities in order. If only everyone could do that. I've been on WT hiatus since September but am starting to think about going back. __________________ "I need to learn some new scales and stop obsessing about this stuff." http://www.myspace.com/slickshoes

January 3rd, 2009, 03:58 PM	#3 (permalink)
Aaron G Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bloomington, In Posts: 105	I've experienced the same type of things. Whether it was Worship Teams or Christian bands, I was disappointed that there were the same situations to handle as in secular bands. The real difference is supposed to be how we react toward each other. Sadly, it ended up too similar. I lead worship in a smaller church now by myself (or a bass player with me). I'm happy with that and don't know that I would get into a large worship team situation again. If I was at a larger church (which my wife would like to belong to), I'd rather take my place in the congregation.

January 3rd, 2009, 05:42 PM	#4 (permalink)
klasaine Friend of Leo's Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: los angeles, ca Age: 47 Posts: 2,450 10 Photos	Quote: AmericanStd. "I have come to the conclusion that worship team politics is no different from secular band politics, but it throws you for a loop because you expect more from people in a ministry, and no secular musician as bad as some of the worship team players I have worked with would ever be able to throw their weight around in a secular band - they'd be tossed out on their ears whether they owned the PA or not. What say you?" Lol! In a secular band I guess we don't have to 'turn the other cheek'. You get one chance to take over and it's pretty much the law of the jungle at that point. I've witnessed equal amounts of politics, immaturity, general weirdness and jockeying in both arenas (amateur, pro, catholic, protestant, jewish and even buddhist) - no more, no less. People are people. Read the newspaper or read 'the book' - we don't change much.

January 4th, 2009, 01:21 PM	#14 (permalink)
getbent Moderator Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: San Benito County, California Posts: 13,670 37 Photos	On one hand, vanity is vanity.... on the other... I am not so harsh on the teenage fantasy thing... growth for people comes in all varieties... some in fulfillment, some in failure... I try really hard to see how things play out.... some of the squabbles that get chronicled here provide great growth experiences for either the people who experience them or the people who observe them... I have a very good friend of 20 years or so, who is pw leader... he loves music and his songs number in the hundreds... he is a very very great guy... we played in a couple of bands together in Colorado... I cannot describe how frustrating he could be in a performance context... but his PW stuff is really cool and loose... but, I have laughed that when he is performing he is channeling his 'inner Bono' as that singer is kind of his model for what is great performance. It is, in a sense, a fantasy of his to lead a holy band and to sing the word and to celebrate it.... so, I'd guess there is some degree of vanity to it... but, the net effect on the audience is positive. Even the old ranchers smile and say, "That David shore does love to sing!" To paint a picture of what his deal is... if you ever saw the original 'Vanishing Point' it is kind of like the desert church revival scene... very Delaney and Bonnie gospel with the same hippie twinge.... but, soulful and heartfelt. But even in Dave's church they have all the humans with all their ideas of the 'best way' to worship and that is just gonna differ..... I have come to believe that I can deal with quite a bit of nonsense for a few moments of joy... and after the many frustrating times with Dave (he loved to change keys and songs in the middle of them) he called me a few years ago and asked me to help him out on bass for a sunday... I had so much fun and loved the songs and just the overall vibe... but, I am SURE that there were people who were of differing opinions that day... I don't know whether or not elbowing into a pw team is bad or good... it seems that ambition gets judged kinda arbitrarily sometimes... but, if a guys heart is good and he just wants to play for the people and share in his way... I see no harm in earnestly asking to partake... __________________ We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are

January 5th, 2009, 03:05 AM	#17 (permalink)
giantslayer Tele-Holic Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Age: 23 Posts: 510	The fact is that there are an awful lot of folks in the church who don't seem to act all that differently from the secular folks. One statistic that attests to that is that the divorce rate in the church is almost the same as outside the church. There is something fundamental that is missing from the lives of many christians. Church/band politics are often simply another manifestation of the same problem. What is missing? I could spitball and throw some ideas out, but I don't know if I have it pegged at this point. I do know that the ugly side of our human nature (or "flesh," if you like Biblical terminology) is always there and we all have to fight it if we don't want to end up the same as everyone else. I do know that there are some folks who are doing a decent job of walking in the new nature that Paul talks about, rather than the old nature. No one is perfect, of course, and this battle won't ever end in this life. In my own life, I've noticed a negative correlation between how much time I spend with God praying and reading the Word and how much the ugly side of my flesh shows itself. Jesus said that the greatest commandment was to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and that the second commandment was to love your neighbor as yourself. If we all did that, we wouldn't have these problems.

January 5th, 2009, 03:17 AM	#18 (permalink)
sax4blues Tele-Holic Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: San Jose, CA Age: 52 Posts: 986	Have we considered that we don't know who in the "secular" world is christian and who isn't. Many people that we run into everywhere; work, store, bands, are christians, even some of the poorly behaving. Maybe that secular world would be completely out of control without the guidance of the church. Atheistic governments will often tolerate religion because they recognize the calming effect it has on populations. So the question could just as easily be why are people outside of churches ever nice?

January 5th, 2009, 03:20 AM	#19 (permalink)
getbent Moderator Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: San Benito County, California Posts: 13,670 37 Photos	those are good questions but lead us outside the scope of the forum... That set of questions probably needs to be discussed via pm or on another board. __________________ We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are

January 5th, 2009, 10:14 PM	#21 (permalink)
getbent Moderator Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: San Benito County, California Posts: 13,670 37 Photos	yes.. yes.. I was referencing sax4blues great questions... I just didn't want to have to close the thread.... it is a good topic... __________________ We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are

January 6th, 2009, 03:13 PM	#23 (permalink)
franchelB Friend of Leo's Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Irving, United States of Texas! Age: 44 Posts: 2,303	I don't know what's worse... dealing with regular band politics or church band politics! While I consider doing music ministry as my tithing to the church, it's very discouraging trying to deal with its "politicians". I just have to focus even harder that my "calling" is in "music ministry"! __________________ Feel free to visit my homepage! http://www.myspace.com/francisbalagtas

January 7th, 2009, 01:01 PM	#24 (permalink)
Doug 54 Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ohio, Dayton area Posts: 1,307	People are peoples wherever you go. Wrapping it all up in the environment of a place of worship does not exclude that dictum. In fact that may make it harder to face getting irked at.... "my brother" __________________ "Cowboys to Girls"

January 10th, 2009, 11:44 AM	#25 (permalink)
Joseph's Dad TDPRI Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 72	Speaking as a pastor Speaking as a pastor, I've seen exactly what y'all are talking about here. (Not to start a new thread, but the root cause may be one reason we lose so many pastors on a regular basis.) Back to this thread: one of my favorite definitions of church is "Sinners Anonymous." As in, "Hi, my name's Joe, and I'm a sinner...saved by grace." Welcome home! As the early Methodists used to say, "How is it with your soul?"

January 10th, 2009, 12:13 PM	#26 (permalink)
ce24 Tele-Holic Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Idaho Age: 59 Posts: 847	Isn't biblical tithing meant to be fiscal support for the Church? and Ministry spiritual support. If every one just used their personal ministry and called it tithing there wouldn't be a Church left anywhere. it's the first 10th of your take, before or after taxes is a personal call but...Without fiscal tithing there is no money for ministries........ Cheers ce24 __________________ www.motagator.net/slackwater "you can be happy or you can be miserable..the amount of work is the same"

February 4th, 2009, 06:26 PM	#30 (permalink)
ChurchPlayer Tele-Meister Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 377	Couple takes here, and my apologies for restating anything that was already said, but it's easier than quoting from 10 different posts. First off, I have to thank God for the people we have in our ministry. The very idea of hostile takeovers and power struggles are things I've almost never had to deal with, at least among team members - power struggles with the Pastor are another thing (we've had them and we've had to have sit downs with him and essentially say, "You're the guy, and if you want it your way that's fine, but know that if that's the case then you need to start looking elsewhere for a leader", which usually refocuses everyone - not that I'm advocating it as a solution). One of the things I took to heart early on in my ministry life is the lesson of John Wimber, founder of the Vineyard churches - God will give you something for a season, and that season may be long or short, but you need to commit to it fully, yet with a soft hold so that you're willing to give it up when it's time. I lead with a good friend and musical brother and we struggle amongst ourselves often with songs and musical direction, but we're both committed to each other and the ministry first, and our vision second, so when we butt heads we take a step back and both let go of the reigns, laying aside our particular desire for the moment so we can revisit it fresh down the road. Sometimes it's just a weariness of mind and spirit that has us forcing something new when it's not time (usually the case with us) while other times it's just a matter that one of us is dog tired and needs the other to take up the slack. In either case, it's important to lean on those around you when you need to, and let them know that it's appreciated. The biggest thing in any ministry, music or otherwise, is the death of ego - which I believe is a REAL hard thing for musicians, 'cause lets face it, most of us wouldn't play in front of people if we didn't have enough ego to want to be seen. God doesn't honor pride, and when it creeps in it's going to create that "fall" He promised. We need to recognize it and repent of it before it does, even if it means giving up control. God will get His way eventually, and you can be the guy who gets asked to sit at the head table rather than the one who's asked to give up their seat. __________________ Jake "I tell my kids, 'Daddy's the best guitar player on the block. Always will be. Even if we have to move.'"

February 9th, 2009, 02:17 PM	#32 (permalink)
klasaine Friend of Leo's Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: los angeles, ca Age: 47 Posts: 2,450 10 Photos	ChurchPlayer quote - "The biggest thing in any ministry, music or otherwise, is the death of ego - which I believe is a REAL hard thing for musicians, 'cause lets face it, most of us wouldn't play in front of people if we didn't have enough ego to want to be seen. God doesn't honor pride, and when it creeps in it's going to create that "fall" He promised. We need to recognize it and repent of it before it does, even if it means giving up control. God will get His way eventually, and you can be the guy who gets asked to sit at the head table rather than the one who's asked to give up their seat." Which is probably one of the reasons why, and a very good reason too, why many churches hire and pay outside musicians (sorry to reference an older but ongoing thread and discussion) for services. Generally speaking it's much easier for a pro to leave his or her ego behind and just get on with the business of making the music sound and feel good. I guess it ends up being less hassle, less stressful and probably cheaper in the long run - and all that is more conducive to actual worship.

February 9th, 2009, 02:24 PM	#33 (permalink)
XinTX TDPRI Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: SE Texas Posts: 45	Any church you get into, and any PW band, will likely have members who are at a different stage of their spiritual growth. So the guy who 'elbows his way in' this year, may be someone who comes to the point of joining a PW band out of sheer joy ten years after. We all have to take our steps along the path. But we're not all at the same place at the same time. It does try the patience.

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