Which is more important, skill or passion?

DADGAD · May 20th, 2008, 10:37 AM

Our church just bought a new state of the art recording system. They will be recording the live P&W music and releasing a CD about every six months. It will be a compilation of the best songs.

Last week, my band was on and, knowing we would be recorded, I executed my guitar playing with my utmost skill and precision. Afterwards, my wife said that my playing was perfect but totally lacked my usual passion. She said that I should go back to my usual way of playing as that is what most people enjoy.

What do you think is most important; skill or passion?

Gary

HOBBSTER01 · May 20th, 2008, 10:45 AM

passion.
Skill is the building block,but passion evokes the mood of a piece.

magicguitar · May 20th, 2008, 10:51 AM

Passion! It just makes the difference. I've seen guitar players with all the skill in the world, but sound dull and lackluster AND on the other hand I've seen players with little skill that sounded GREAT because they put themselves into the song.

andy__woods · May 20th, 2008, 11:29 AM

skill without passion isn't good for worship (not necessarilly bad, but is indeed lacking). On the other hand though, passion without skill becomes noise. If someone is really passionate, but not a great instrumentalist, they can still be passionate from the congregation or wherever they may be. I think it takes a good combination of both.

Very cool though that your church is going to compile a cd! Let us know when it comes out, I'd be interested to give it a listen

CatfishStudios · May 20th, 2008, 11:36 AM

It is only through passion, that one develops skill.

neocaster · May 20th, 2008, 11:49 AM

If you're doing it for the right reason, passion. If you're trying to impress anyone, you're playing in the wrong place.

refin · May 20th, 2008, 11:55 AM

Passion (as a player) is something that flows from years of connecting your fingers with your heart and soul----passion for worship,no instrument necessary.

BAW4742 · May 20th, 2008, 11:58 AM

I think passion is more important. Passion for the music will lead to skill. Music should be emotional and with out passion it just becomes technical.

Try to forget about the record button and play from your heart.

GoldieLocks · May 20th, 2008, 01:46 PM

I've jammed with alot of people with skill but no passion. Its always boring.

Then again I've played with some people with passion & no skill...it was chaos everytime.

I believe music is ART and Math at the same time.

DADGAD · May 20th, 2008, 02:15 PM

Great insights. Thanks for helping me wrap my mind around this.

Would you say that the passion or soul of the playing always carries through in the final recording?

octatonic · May 20th, 2008, 02:39 PM

Has to be both.

I'm not sure these binary questions are at all meaningful- it is like say "which is better, oxygen or gravity?"

aunchaki · May 20th, 2008, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by octatonic

Has to be both. I'm not sure these binary questions are at all meaningful- it is like say "which is better, oxygen or gravity?"

OK, that's funny!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DADGAD

Would you say that the passion or soul of the playing always carries through in the final recording?

I'm sure that different people hear different things in live or recorded music. I'm sure there are very passionate recordings that won't come off that way to me. Rather than worrying if you sound passionate, try to simply be passionate and see (er... hear) what happens.

Blessings...

scooteraz · May 21st, 2008, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by octatonic

Has to be both.

I'm not sure these binary questions are at all meaningful- it is like say "which is better, oxygen or gravity?"

Actually, it this pair, gravity

Without gravity it would be hard to collect enough oxygen to be useful...

However, point taken. Still, I think of the pair, passion. As Goldilocks said, skill without passion is boring. Some of both is needed, but for any music that I can think of I will take a reasonably skilled player with great passion over the stylist with amazing skill and no passion.

Of course, I have "a dog in this hunt", since my passion is MUCH greater than my skill

so, you have to take my comments with that in mind.

stephwills · May 21st, 2008, 01:20 AM

Give me passion over skill any day. If you have passion, you'll eventually get the skill.

Of course, my passion far exceeds my skill. And if I'm careful, it always will be.

bobthecanadian · May 21st, 2008, 01:21 AM

Do whatever you think is best and play for an audience of one. As a performer of this type of music you are equipped/skilled to play the way that you do.

I have heard this same basic argument, in one form or another, since I first got involved in worship service playing. I like the way you put your question, which is 'more' important. I have heard too many times that it is an either/or question, which really misses the whole point.

Some have said that I, as a younger worship player, was focused on the skills and not passionate enough. Others said that I was too passionate and not focused enough on the skills. However, whenever I was playing for the audience of one it was never either, or both. It it always acceptable. So, go figure. I am sure that you are putting your best foot forward.

So which is more important? I think what is most important is to be focused on what you're singing/playing for. If it is playing well to get a good recording, then that's fine. If playing in P/W setting and the focus is a church worship setting, then that's okay, too. The only warning that I could think of is that combining the two could lead to a little danger. For example, if the performance is to impress a digital recorder, or some other type of recording device, then the focus has shifted.

My experience regarding this has taught me to ignore the extraneous stuff and focus on the One. Let the other guys doing the recording figure it out later. If it is a live recording, certain things are expected as it is not a studio recording. Do you best at both, playing with skill and withpassion! You will set yourself apart and that will be a wonderful blessing!

Cheers,

Bob

PraiseCaster · May 21st, 2008, 05:44 PM

Skill without passion is sterile, bland.

Passion without skill is a train wreck.

Play from your heart. There, the desires where put in for you, and that very same passion/desire will drive you to perfect the skills needed to play passionately from your heart.

Dont think, "I'm gonna record!", rather think, "I'm gonna lead in Praise and Worship!"

PraiseCaster · May 21st, 2008, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DADGAD

Would you say that the passion or soul of the playing always carries through in the final recording?

Good question!

I would say yes, but other than my opinion based on my own playing, I have nothing else to quantify this. I can tell when I am playing "detached" or engrossed into the song. I doubt many around me would be able to tell the difference, unless of course, they are guitarists too.

mudbean · May 21st, 2008, 06:02 PM

50 - 50

mud

three barrel · May 21st, 2008, 08:48 PM

Passion is emotion. Skill is the result of dedication to an art and some innate ability. Both are a part of worship. In the worship setting, passion without skill could quickly get in the way of a meaningful worship experience. Think of the times you have had a passionate, but awful voice blaring behind you in worship. You may say "bless their heart" for their passion, but it still grates on you like fingers on a chalk board, doesn't it? Likewise, if someone keeps playing clams on their instrument, it will bring an unwanted tension to the experience. So for me, skill first. We are there to lead OTHERS into a meaningful worship experience.

Beerts · May 21st, 2008, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldieLocks

I've jammed with alot of people with skill but no passion. Its always boring.

Then again I've played with some people with passion & no skill...it was chaos everytime.

I believe music is ART and Math at the same time.

well put!

DADGAD · May 22nd, 2008, 10:01 AM

We are to, "...play skillfully..." and I do not see passion "mentioned" part of the equation. Therein lies the basis for my OP.

I had no problem delivering a perfect execution of the performed piece. However, when I play with more passion I tend to not play each verse, chorus or refrain exactly alike. Perhaps all those years of music study, chart reading, jazz, theory, song writing and guitar lessons has ruined music for me. Ha!

Perhaps it must be a blend of both; skillful playing with the realization that someone is examining the guitarist's heart or passion at the same time. We all know that nothing performed musically is ever hidden from the listener. You can't "lie" when playing guitar. Especially on a Tele....

Gary

tom grossheider · May 22nd, 2008, 12:08 PM

It isn't either/or, to worship as God intends I believe they both play an integral part of the worship experience. Passion is more an emotion, and personally speaking I am not always emotional ready to play. But if I use my skill to execute well, eventually the emotions (passion being one of them) will follow suit. My desire to worship God and to please Him in all things is what drives my desire to play well. Passion comes and goes, obedience does not.

Pickalittle · May 26th, 2008, 02:36 AM

Both. Skill first.

hotraman · May 26th, 2008, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DADGAD

Great insights. Thanks for helping me wrap my mind around this.

Would you say that the passion or soul of the playing always carries through in the final recording?

Not all the time.
You'll know if you captured it, when you listen to your playback.
Its hard to do.
Like others have posted, with a blend of both.

tjalla · May 26th, 2008, 03:27 PM

I agree with the oxygen/gravity analogy... why chose?

But if we must, I think it depends on context...

1) If I'm fronting the band, I'd prefer to have skilled musos backing me
2) If I'm a (hopefully capable) sideman, I wouldn't mind trying to make a passionate frontperson sound the best he/she can while delivering his/her energy
3) 'Passion only' might work more in a live audience
4) I'd opt for skill if I knew the music was going to be recorded.

Its harder to find 'passion without skill' that transfers to tape well. (Unless maybe we're talking some old backalley acoustic blues, but that's a whole different story)

esteban · May 26th, 2008, 04:46 PM

Albert Einstein: "Imagination is more important than knowledge."

Switch imagination for passion, blah blah blah...

wbm68 · June 13th, 2008, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DADGAD

Our church just bought a new state of the art recording system. They will be recording the live P&W music and releasing a CD about every six months. It will be a compilation of the best songs.

Last week, my band was on and, knowing we would be recorded, I executed my guitar playing with my utmost skill and precision. Afterwards, my wife said that my playing was perfect but totally lacked my usual passion. She said that I should go back to my usual way of playing as that is what most people enjoy.

What do you think is most important; skill or passion?

Gary

As it will be recorded and can and will be listened to over and over and over again, I'd say in a recording environment skill.
For a one shot live performance where no one can go back and analyze it, passion.
Any wrong/bad/sloppy playing will be a lot more obvious if you have to hear it over and over again. No one will care about your passion when listening to sloppy playing repeatedly on a CD.
Ideally you have both, but I'd concentrate on how I play while recording.

Jake Blues · June 15th, 2008, 10:46 PM

Great question,

In my own church playing I try to keep it really simple and not allow "ME" to be the focus. My desire is to lead people to exult Jesus Christ. And simple passionate playing where ego/technical flare is ommitted seems to acheive great results in leading people into worship.

It goes without saying that my playing is without mistakes, is tasteful, and somewhat interesting; most would say highly skillful. But indeed my passion for leading people to worship and praise is greater than my passion to have people remember or comment on how or what I played.

Funny thing-I played a really difficult fingerpicking piece by John Standefer for a specail once. Fairly flawless, a technically dificult piece, and very tasty. Not one comment from anyone. The next week played some simple chord melody stuff in the first positon and was asked to record a CD.

Passion and skill are not mutally exclusive but often just keeping things simple and less technicle go a long way for the worship leader.

In grace

teleftcaster · June 27th, 2008, 12:22 AM

2 sides of the same coin.

Larry F · June 27th, 2008, 12:47 AM

Even though I'm a professor of theory and composition, I am sometimes asked to serve on a recital committee. I am getting better at it, but at first I had a difficult time understanding what was important to the other faculty members who played the instrument. This was especially true of the piano. What they looked for above all was passion. This was manifested in changes in tempo and dynamics in relation to the form, harmonic structure, and emotional architecture of the composition. A flawless performance with few missed notes didn't impress the committee in itself.

On the other hand, sometimes a player plays very sloppily, musing the notes together so that they are not distinct. You can learn to listen for this when a phrase is repeated. The first time might be mushy, only to be cleaned up the second time as the player zeroes in on it. Players criticize this type of playing, calling it "practicing." When a pianist is too indistinct in a performance, they sometimes say they played like a pig.

Just what I have observed. The music that I am describing is all virtually mistake-free, at tempo, and drawn from the classical piano repertoire of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Chopin, etc. It all sounds good to the uninitiated like me, but to the musicians themselves, they hear all kinds of things.

Flat357 · June 27th, 2008, 01:00 AM

Playing passionately is a skill !!

Never undermine skill , just because the end product may not be to to our tastes . In most cases , the person who is performing is doing so with as much passion as anybody else .
If they weren't passionate about it , they wouldn't have developed in the first place .
Playing tastefully however is all a matter for opinion .

ChurchPlayer · June 27th, 2008, 09:23 AM

This is one of the reasons - the main reason - I hate recording worship services for the purpose of release. You can't release a poor performance, but when you're concentrating more on what you're playing than Who you're playing for then the focus is entirely in the wrong place?

I'm not saying churches should record worship services. But when they use the primary worship gathering as their vehicle for recording then you are short changing someone - and possible some One. If those leading worship are simply focused on executing of the songs then those in the congregation worshipping are not being lead as well as they should be. This is their weekly worship service and many of them are facing extreme crisis in their lives. Don't we as musicians owe it to them to make sure that nothing hinders our ability to connect with the Almighty and open the gates of heaven during that service? And even for ourselves, if we walk away from a service saying, "Man, I nailed that solo", or "My tone was perfect and my playing flawless", didn't we fall short of what God demands from worship? Could it have been "strange fire" to Him?

My take is that if a church wants to have CD's of their worship teams and their songs for members to listen to during the week then make time to have a weekly/monthly worship gathering where the specific focus is to make the recording. There are plenty of people who love worshiping who will turn out just to have one more chance during the week to sing out to God with the team(s). You can go as long or short as you want and focus on the song because that's what it is about. And you never know where the Spirit might lead. But to walk away from a "performance" instead of an "encounter" on a Sunday morning would leave me pretty empty and ready to ask the same question you did.

I do think you can play both passionately and skillfully, in either situation. For the well practiced musician they are one in the same (every time I strap on a guitar I play with all the skill I've developed during my practice, but while looking to play in the moment and not for the moment). But on a Sunday morning the focus needs to be on the Lord first and last, allowing our natural abilities, God given gifts and skillful preparation take care of the performance end of things, while are hearts and minds are focused squarely on Him. If the performance is worthy of inclusion on a disc, so be it. If not, it was still a sweet smelling offering in the moment, poured out fully to God with no reservations whatsoever. The way it should always be.

Deadduck · June 27th, 2008, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldieLocks

I've jammed with alot of people with skill but no passion. Its always boring.

Then again I've played with some people with passion & no skill...it was chaos everytime.

I believe music is ART and Math at the same time.

My thoughts exactly. I don't know that you can say one is really more important. I've seen some guys with plenty of passion that sounded terrible. It really takes both.

jclark · June 27th, 2008, 01:25 PM

Skill is a bow and passion's an arrow. You need one to hit the target with the other.

DADGAD · June 27th, 2008, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jclark

Skill is a bow and passion's an arrow. You need one to hit the target with the other.

Wow! I think King Solomon just posted. Great wisdom!

PraiseCaster · June 27th, 2008, 02:51 PM

Yep, jclark hit the bulls-eye!

TxTeleMan · July 1st, 2008, 11:56 AM

Lot's of good advice here.

Skill can overcome passion, but passion cannot overcome skill. You really need to have both, as passion without skill can be mighty hard to listen to, while skill lacking passion can provide a background for the congregation to worship.

Not all share my opinon.

John Michael Talbot says you must have both in order to be a worship leader.

gpforchrist · August 12th, 2008, 02:28 PM

Skills are about building blocks and range of things you can do. Passion is about the heart. Remember bad sounding MIDI music? That's skill without passion.

You also want enough skill though that it doesn't detract from the message of the music and of worship.

aznrambo481 · August 12th, 2008, 02:42 PM

passion can bring skill. I guess skill can bring passion, but that's not the way it typically goes...

May 20th, 2008, 10:37 AM	#1 (permalink)
DADGAD Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Palmdale, CA Posts: 829	Which is more important, skill or passion? Our church just bought a new state of the art recording system. They will be recording the live P&W music and releasing a CD about every six months. It will be a compilation of the best songs. Last week, my band was on and, knowing we would be recorded, I executed my guitar playing with my utmost skill and precision. Afterwards, my wife said that my playing was perfect but totally lacked my usual passion. She said that I should go back to my usual way of playing as that is what most people enjoy. What do you think is most important; skill or passion? Gary __________________ "I need to learn some new scales and stop obsessing about this stuff." http://www.myspace.com/slickshoes

May 20th, 2008, 10:45 AM	#2 (permalink)
HOBBSTER01 Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: North GA. Age: 47 Posts: 1,569 4 Photos	passion. Skill is the building block,but passion evokes the mood of a piece. __________________ The Hobbster

May 20th, 2008, 11:29 AM	#4 (permalink)
andy__woods Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Michigan Age: 24 Posts: 1,205 60 Photos	skill without passion isn't good for worship (not necessarilly bad, but is indeed lacking). On the other hand though, passion without skill becomes noise. If someone is really passionate, but not a great instrumentalist, they can still be passionate from the congregation or wherever they may be. I think it takes a good combination of both. Very cool though that your church is going to compile a cd! Let us know when it comes out, I'd be interested to give it a listen __________________ -- Andy "Woods" Crowder --

May 20th, 2008, 11:55 AM	#7 (permalink)
refin Friend of Leo's Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Florida Panhandle Age: 53 Posts: 2,572	Passion (as a player) is something that flows from years of connecting your fingers with your heart and soul----passion for worship,no instrument necessary. __________________ "For You,Lord,are good,and ready to forgive,and abundant in mercy to all those who call upon You." Ps. 86:5 http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/refin_music.htm MASTER VOLUME? WHAT'S A MASTER VOLUME?

May 20th, 2008, 01:46 PM	#9 (permalink)
GoldieLocks Tele-Holic Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Abbotsford B.C. Posts: 872	skill or passion? I've jammed with alot of people with skill but no passion. Its always boring. Then again I've played with some people with passion & no skill...it was chaos everytime. I believe music is ART and Math at the same time. __________________ "How little I know inspires me tremendously! I'm a huge fan of other people's playing." Bonnie Raitt

May 20th, 2008, 10:51 AM	#3 (permalink)
magicguitar Tele-Holic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Fallon, Nevada Age: 61 Posts: 789	Passion! It just makes the difference. I've seen guitar players with all the skill in the world, but sound dull and lackluster AND on the other hand I've seen players with little skill that sounded GREAT because they put themselves into the song.

May 20th, 2008, 11:36 AM	#5 (permalink)
CatfishStudios Banned Tele-Holic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Portland, Oregon , United States Age: 34 Posts: 727	It is only through passion, that one develops skill.

May 20th, 2008, 11:49 AM	#6 (permalink)
neocaster Friend of Leo's Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Chester County, PA Age: 36 Posts: 3,931 11 Photos	If you're doing it for the right reason, passion. If you're trying to impress anyone, you're playing in the wrong place.

May 20th, 2008, 11:58 AM	#8 (permalink)
BAW4742 Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Maryland's Eastern Shore Age: 52 Posts: 1,225 4 Photos	I think passion is more important. Passion for the music will lead to skill. Music should be emotional and with out passion it just becomes technical. Try to forget about the record button and play from your heart.

May 20th, 2008, 02:15 PM	#10 (permalink)
DADGAD Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Palmdale, CA Posts: 829	Great insights. Thanks for helping me wrap my mind around this. Would you say that the passion or soul of the playing always carries through in the final recording? __________________ "I need to learn some new scales and stop obsessing about this stuff." http://www.myspace.com/slickshoes

May 20th, 2008, 02:39 PM	#11 (permalink)
octatonic Friend of Leo's Join Date: May 2007 Location: An Australian in London. Age: 37 Posts: 2,657	Has to be both. I'm not sure these binary questions are at all meaningful- it is like say "which is better, oxygen or gravity?" __________________ "A jazz musician is a juggler who uses harmonies instead of oranges." Benny Green

May 21st, 2008, 01:20 AM	#14 (permalink)
stephwills Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Lubbock, Texas Posts: 257	Give me passion over skill any day. If you have passion, you'll eventually get the skill. Of course, my passion far exceeds my skill. And if I'm careful, it always will be. __________________ steph Think I'll just stay here and drink ...

May 21st, 2008, 01:21 AM	#15 (permalink)
bobthecanadian Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: EDMONTON, Alberta... yes, in CANADA Age: 43 Posts: 1,717	My two cents worth. Do whatever you think is best and play for an audience of one. As a performer of this type of music you are equipped/skilled to play the way that you do. I have heard this same basic argument, in one form or another, since I first got involved in worship service playing. I like the way you put your question, which is 'more' important. I have heard too many times that it is an either/or question, which really misses the whole point. Some have said that I, as a younger worship player, was focused on the skills and not passionate enough. Others said that I was too passionate and not focused enough on the skills. However, whenever I was playing for the audience of one it was never either, or both. It it always acceptable. So, go figure. I am sure that you are putting your best foot forward. So which is more important? I think what is most important is to be focused on what you're singing/playing for. If it is playing well to get a good recording, then that's fine. If playing in P/W setting and the focus is a church worship setting, then that's okay, too. The only warning that I could think of is that combining the two could lead to a little danger. For example, if the performance is to impress a digital recorder, or some other type of recording device, then the focus has shifted. My experience regarding this has taught me to ignore the extraneous stuff and focus on the One. Let the other guys doing the recording figure it out later. If it is a live recording, certain things are expected as it is not a studio recording. Do you best at both, playing with skill and withpassion! You will set yourself apart and that will be a wonderful blessing! Cheers, Bob __________________ It don't mean a thang if it ain't got that TWANG!!!

May 21st, 2008, 05:44 PM	#16 (permalink)
PraiseCaster Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Whittier, California Posts: 5,879 16 Photos	Skill without passion is sterile, bland. Passion without skill is a train wreck. Play from your heart. There, the desires where put in for you, and that very same passion/desire will drive you to perfect the skills needed to play passionately from your heart. Dont think, "I'm gonna record!", rather think, "I'm gonna lead in Praise and Worship!" __________________ Later! PraiseCaster Visit Guitarists Praise and Worship Forum!! Dance Like David, MySpace

May 21st, 2008, 06:02 PM	#18 (permalink)
mudbean Friend of Leo's Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: SoCal Semi-Desert Semi-Paradise Age: 50 Posts: 3,185 10 Photos	50 - 50 mud __________________ MudBean Music Nekkid Bart: "This is the worst day of my life." Laffing Homer: "Worst day SO FAR!!"

May 21st, 2008, 08:48 PM	#19 (permalink)
three barrel Tele-Meister Join Date: May 2007 Location: Wichita, KS Age: 54 Posts: 148	Passion is emotion. Skill is the result of dedication to an art and some innate ability. Both are a part of worship. In the worship setting, passion without skill could quickly get in the way of a meaningful worship experience. Think of the times you have had a passionate, but awful voice blaring behind you in worship. You may say "bless their heart" for their passion, but it still grates on you like fingers on a chalk board, doesn't it? Likewise, if someone keeps playing clams on their instrument, it will bring an unwanted tension to the experience. So for me, skill first. We are there to lead OTHERS into a meaningful worship experience.

May 22nd, 2008, 10:01 AM	#21 (permalink)
DADGAD Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Palmdale, CA Posts: 829	We are to, "...play skillfully..." and I do not see passion "mentioned" part of the equation. Therein lies the basis for my OP. I had no problem delivering a perfect execution of the performed piece. However, when I play with more passion I tend to not play each verse, chorus or refrain exactly alike. Perhaps all those years of music study, chart reading, jazz, theory, song writing and guitar lessons has ruined music for me. Ha! Perhaps it must be a blend of both; skillful playing with the realization that someone is examining the guitarist's heart or passion at the same time. We all know that nothing performed musically is ever hidden from the listener. You can't "lie" when playing guitar. Especially on a Tele.... Gary __________________ "I need to learn some new scales and stop obsessing about this stuff." http://www.myspace.com/slickshoes

May 22nd, 2008, 12:08 PM	#22 (permalink)
tom grossheider Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Mokena, IL Posts: 789	It isn't either/or, to worship as God intends I believe they both play an integral part of the worship experience. Passion is more an emotion, and personally speaking I am not always emotional ready to play. But if I use my skill to execute well, eventually the emotions (passion being one of them) will follow suit. My desire to worship God and to please Him in all things is what drives my desire to play well. Passion comes and goes, obedience does not.

May 26th, 2008, 02:36 AM	#23 (permalink)
Pickalittle Tele-Meister Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: USA Age: 57 Posts: 428	Both. Skill first. __________________ Don't die with the music still in you! Psalm 150

May 26th, 2008, 03:27 PM	#25 (permalink)
tjalla Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 2,456 7 Photos	I agree with the oxygen/gravity analogy... why chose? But if we must, I think it depends on context... 1) If I'm fronting the band, I'd prefer to have skilled musos backing me 2) If I'm a (hopefully capable) sideman, I wouldn't mind trying to make a passionate frontperson sound the best he/she can while delivering his/her energy 3) 'Passion only' might work more in a live audience 4) I'd opt for skill if I knew the music was going to be recorded. Its harder to find 'passion without skill' that transfers to tape well. (Unless maybe we're talking some old backalley acoustic blues, but that's a whole different story)

May 26th, 2008, 04:46 PM	#26 (permalink)
esteban Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Austin, Texas Age: 21 Posts: 1,159 3 Photos	Albert Einstein: "Imagination is more important than knowledge." Switch imagination for passion, blah blah blah... __________________ When I die, they'll say, he couldn't play sh*t, but he sure made it sound good. - Hound Dog Taylor

June 15th, 2008, 10:46 PM	#28 (permalink)
Jake Blues TDPRI Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: ketchikan AK Age: 44 Posts: 95	Great question, In my own church playing I try to keep it really simple and not allow "ME" to be the focus. My desire is to lead people to exult Jesus Christ. And simple passionate playing where ego/technical flare is ommitted seems to acheive great results in leading people into worship. It goes without saying that my playing is without mistakes, is tasteful, and somewhat interesting; most would say highly skillful. But indeed my passion for leading people to worship and praise is greater than my passion to have people remember or comment on how or what I played. Funny thing-I played a really difficult fingerpicking piece by John Standefer for a specail once. Fairly flawless, a technically dificult piece, and very tasty. Not one comment from anyone. The next week played some simple chord melody stuff in the first positon and was asked to record a CD. Passion and skill are not mutally exclusive but often just keeping things simple and less technicle go a long way for the worship leader. In grace

June 27th, 2008, 12:22 AM	#29 (permalink)
teleftcaster Tele-Meister Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 152	2 sides of the same coin.

June 27th, 2008, 12:47 AM	#30 (permalink)
Larry F Friend of Leo's Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Iowa City, IA Age: 56 Posts: 3,411	Even though I'm a professor of theory and composition, I am sometimes asked to serve on a recital committee. I am getting better at it, but at first I had a difficult time understanding what was important to the other faculty members who played the instrument. This was especially true of the piano. What they looked for above all was passion. This was manifested in changes in tempo and dynamics in relation to the form, harmonic structure, and emotional architecture of the composition. A flawless performance with few missed notes didn't impress the committee in itself. On the other hand, sometimes a player plays very sloppily, musing the notes together so that they are not distinct. You can learn to listen for this when a phrase is repeated. The first time might be mushy, only to be cleaned up the second time as the player zeroes in on it. Players criticize this type of playing, calling it "practicing." When a pianist is too indistinct in a performance, they sometimes say they played like a pig. Just what I have observed. The music that I am describing is all virtually mistake-free, at tempo, and drawn from the classical piano repertoire of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Chopin, etc. It all sounds good to the uninitiated like me, but to the musicians themselves, they hear all kinds of things. __________________ larry

June 27th, 2008, 01:00 AM	#31 (permalink)
Flat357 Friend of Leo's Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Cheshire Age: 41 Posts: 3,068	Playing passionately is a skill !! Never undermine skill , just because the end product may not be to to our tastes . In most cases , the person who is performing is doing so with as much passion as anybody else . If they weren't passionate about it , they wouldn't have developed in the first place . Playing tastefully however is all a matter for opinion . __________________ MySpace http://www.myspace.com/flat357

IMPORTANT:Treat everyone here with respect, no matter how difficult! No sex, drug, political, religion or hate discussion permitted here.

June 27th, 2008, 09:23 AM	#32 (permalink)
ChurchPlayer Tele-Meister Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 377	This is one of the reasons - the main reason - I hate recording worship services for the purpose of release. You can't release a poor performance, but when you're concentrating more on what you're playing than Who you're playing for then the focus is entirely in the wrong place? I'm not saying churches should record worship services. But when they use the primary worship gathering as their vehicle for recording then you are short changing someone - and possible some One. If those leading worship are simply focused on executing of the songs then those in the congregation worshipping are not being lead as well as they should be. This is their weekly worship service and many of them are facing extreme crisis in their lives. Don't we as musicians owe it to them to make sure that nothing hinders our ability to connect with the Almighty and open the gates of heaven during that service? And even for ourselves, if we walk away from a service saying, "Man, I nailed that solo", or "My tone was perfect and my playing flawless", didn't we fall short of what God demands from worship? Could it have been "strange fire" to Him? My take is that if a church wants to have CD's of their worship teams and their songs for members to listen to during the week then make time to have a weekly/monthly worship gathering where the specific focus is to make the recording. There are plenty of people who love worshiping who will turn out just to have one more chance during the week to sing out to God with the team(s). You can go as long or short as you want and focus on the song because that's what it is about. And you never know where the Spirit might lead. But to walk away from a "performance" instead of an "encounter" on a Sunday morning would leave me pretty empty and ready to ask the same question you did. I do think you can play both passionately and skillfully, in either situation. For the well practiced musician they are one in the same (every time I strap on a guitar I play with all the skill I've developed during my practice, but while looking to play in the moment and not for the moment). But on a Sunday morning the focus needs to be on the Lord first and last, allowing our natural abilities, God given gifts and skillful preparation take care of the performance end of things, while are hearts and minds are focused squarely on Him. If the performance is worthy of inclusion on a disc, so be it. If not, it was still a sweet smelling offering in the moment, poured out fully to God with no reservations whatsoever. The way it should always be. __________________ Jake "I tell my kids, 'Daddy's the best guitar player on the block. Always will be. Even if we have to move.'"

June 27th, 2008, 01:25 PM	#34 (permalink)
jclark Tele-Meister Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: new jersey Age: 44 Posts: 340	Skill is a bow and passion's an arrow. You need one to hit the target with the other.

June 27th, 2008, 02:51 PM	#36 (permalink)
PraiseCaster Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Whittier, California Posts: 5,879 16 Photos	Yep, jclark hit the bulls-eye! __________________ Later! PraiseCaster Visit Guitarists Praise and Worship Forum!! Dance Like David, MySpace

July 1st, 2008, 11:56 AM	#37 (permalink)
TxTeleMan Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Austin, Texas Age: 54 Posts: 341 21 Photos	Lot's of good advice here. Skill can overcome passion, but passion cannot overcome skill. You really need to have both, as passion without skill can be mighty hard to listen to, while skill lacking passion can provide a background for the congregation to worship. Not all share my opinon. John Michael Talbot says you must have both in order to be a worship leader.

August 12th, 2008, 02:28 PM	#38 (permalink)
gpforchrist NEW MEMBER! Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Westminter, CO Posts: 1	Skills are about building blocks and range of things you can do. Passion is about the heart. Remember bad sounding MIDI music? That's skill without passion. You also want enough skill though that it doesn't detract from the message of the music and of worship.

August 12th, 2008, 02:42 PM	#39 (permalink)
aznrambo481 Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: La Jolla, California Age: 18 Posts: 2,902 6 Photos	passion can bring skill. I guess skill can bring passion, but that's not the way it typically goes... __________________ Check out my bands, and feel free to PM me comments on them! The Eclectics (guitar/vocals) SLIP (bass)