Newbie Question about Lacquer

[jwc5]

Hi everyone. I have been sitting on the back row for a few weeks soaking in all of the talk here and recently joined. I am now preparing to build two tele's, one pinecaster and one ash. Got a neck from USA and one from Eden. Thought I'd start on the less expensive one first. I have read reranch and threads here about finishing. If ingredients show cellulose nitrate, is that nitro cellulose lacquer? Sorry if thats a dumb question but I failed chemistry.
Thanks,
JC

[garytelecastor]

I can't answer your question as I have never done a build.

I do want to say Welcome and hope you enjoy your stay. This is a Killer site.

[Ronkirn]

This is a reprint from an earlier thread, if you will search nitrocellulose, you will find a lotta info..

It’s sad, but today the word “nitrocellulose” in advertising copy, by a major guitar manufacturer, is meaningless, here’s why. . .

Back in the ‘50s, the lacquer was the real stuff, genuine nitrocellulose; it was used because nitro dries quite fast which reduces production time. Fender often used Dupont Duco a car finishing product. By the late ‘50’s Dupont had introduced an acrylic lacquer, Dupont Lucite. Chemically, it is nothing like nitrocellulose, but it still dried lightning fast. It is the Lucite that was used for the metallic finishes. Fender DID still clear coat the Lucite with Duco, so you had Nitrocellulose over Acrylic. Oh, DO NOT try to do this at home, Acrylic and Nitro are NOT at all compatible. You will screw up your finish royally. You have to know what you are doing to get a nitrocellulose clearcoat to go down over acrylics. Do it wrong and you get the splotchy, crinkly POS finish you see on antique tool boxes.

One of the suspected characteristics of Nitro is that it continues to shrink for many years, thus improving the tone of the guitar. That’s the topic of another discussion, were just talking about the “mystique” surrounding Nitro today.

In the ensuing years since the 50’s there has been any number of new formulations for coatings that have used in guitars. The primary reason for the search has been the reduction production time.

Today just about all finishes used on Guitars, Furniture, Cars, anything made that has to be painted as it rolls down the production line, use a catalytically accelerated finish. This means the finish is formulated with additional chemicals so by adding Heat, or Ultraviolet Light, or an over spray of another chemical, or even some forms or radiation can be used to harden the finish FAST, like in minutes. Compare that to the 30 seconds it took nitrocellulose and acrylic to dry to touch, BUT they still had to air dry completely for about a week before they could be sanded and polished. Urethanes otherwise known buy us all as “Poly” is the most often chemically enhanced finish used on musical instruments today. It is for all intents and purposes, a plastic coating. It is tough though. I gotta give it that much.

Now Jump forward to the mid 80’s. This is when the Vintage craze started. The CBS junk years were coming to an end. CBS’s Fender was just about bankrupt because few serious guitarists were buying their butchered products. Fender was sold to the new guys and they hired Leo Fender as a consultant. His recommendation, “Build ‘em like I did.” This meant nitrocellulose lacquer would now become a feature on some guitars.

Since Nitro takes so darn long to get to a point it can be polished, alternative methods were explored. Thus a chemically modified “Nitro” lacquer was used that can be catalytically accelerated. It bears NOTHING in common with the nitrocellulose lacquers of the 50’s and 60’s, nada, nothing. Other than this. . . and this is how they can call it nitro. The name nitrocellulose comes from the chemical make up. The “cellulose” is from a cellular component coming from the CELL walls of wood. Thus, pitch a little of that “cellulose” component in some mysterious concoction, and the Federal Trade Commission will allow you to call it nitrocellulose.

Now, why would Fender or anyone else do that? Because many of you guys want nitrocellulose lacquer because of the ancient mystique surrounding it. The merchants know the vast majority of potential customers don’t really have a clue and couldn’t identify dried and finished nitrocellulose if they fell head first into a bucket off the goop. But since they want it, the manufacturer will find a way to preserve the speedy manufacturing process, AND call the paint on the booger what you want to hear it called, that it. . .“nitrocellulose”. So don’t throw your money away, Poly sounds just fine assuming the guitarist can play.

Funny, as I'm writing this, I'm doing a Str. . . Stttt.. .. Stra*... I just can't say it in here..... It's Candy apple red, real Sherwin Williams Nitro, over acrylic Shoreline gold... some fun Huh? I'm about 3 weeks into the finish...

One thing I can tell you about Nitro vs Poly, Nitrocellulose has an “alive” feeling kinda like the beautiful skin on your Grand Daughters face, Poly feels like dead plastic because that’s what it is.

Welcome to Marketing 101


Ron Kirn

[Nick JD]

Paint your guitar with polynitrocelluestercelluloseathane.

It's also great for trapping flies, repairing aged intercontinental ballistic missiles and dental cement. Just don't expose it to light or expect it to be visible on video or in a mirror.

[RnB]

Whether this is old info here or not, this makes for an interesting read...
Fender's Dirty Secret

[WisconsinStrings]

Wow Ron... great read!

Is the Reranch's stuff the real deal?

Now that you mention it, my built guitar does feel different then my purchased one. To me, it feels closer to the raw finely sanded wood.

[tboy]

Originally Posted by Nick JD

Paint your guitar with polynitrocelluestercelluloseathane.

It's also great for trapping flies, repairing aged intercontinental ballistic missiles and dental cement. Just don't expose it to light or expect it to be visible on video or in a mirror.

Careful. I've blown up three workshops and 2 cats working with this stuff.

p.s. Ronkirk. Great info! I'm putting that one in the files for future ref.

[boris bubbanov]

No doubt the properties of todays lacquers are different, but for that matter latex paint is (thank god) light years' different from the early latex.

One thing I think all will agree on and that is rattle can lacquers tend to be built with the same industrial building blocks no matter what the brand. I keep seeing chemicals that were simply not readily available 50 years ago on the new labels.

'Modern nitro' is much less likely to sag or run than the stuff I used as a kid painting cars. It develops a skin real fast, and thus takes longer to harden on the inside enough to sand. It will way outlast vintage nitro formulas, and is far less prone to failure of all types. For the casual consumer it is a way more suitable product.

[jwc5]

Thanks to everyone so far for your feedback. I deduct then that Cellulose nitrate is indeed nitrocellulose.
JC

[BillyG]

Off the shelf, what is the closest thing to ‘50s lacquer?

[Ronkirn]

this stuff's pretty darn good and was actually used by Fender occasionally when they couldn't get Duco

http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdpro...+Spray+Lacquer

Ron Kirn

[thephenom]

good information i needed also, thanks