Sourcing Swamp Ash

BillyG · February 24th, 2008, 08:03 PM

Living in the swampy part of South Carolina, I thought it would be easy to find Swamp Ash. I spent yesterday in wood shops and lumber yards that supply furniture builders, knife makers, gun smiths... One guy even boasted that he supplied luthiers. None of them had swamp ash.

Some of them had Northern ash and said that due to the short growing season in the North, the grain is tighter and nicer looking for furniture making. The same guy drew the analogy that mahogany trees that fight for sunlight grow slowly and look way nicer than "plantation mahogany" that grows quickly.

I don't want to go to a Warmoth or a USACG. I have nothing against them, I just want to find the wood on my own. I want to hold it, smell it, weigh it... Where should I turn? Any advise? Also, if i do find some, how big should it be roughed out?

tonewoods · February 24th, 2008, 08:46 PM

"Swamp Ash" (in the world of luthiery) is ash of any species that is light in weight...

So-ooo, that's what you're looking for....

This outfit states that "Guitar Body Stock weight is 2.8 lbs or less per board foot," so that's a good place to start...

You might try searching here for "ash", and see if you can scrounge up something near you.
I'm sure you'll find it...

Luck!

Ronkirn · February 24th, 2008, 10:41 PM

Quote:

"Swamp Ash" (in the world of luthiery) is ash of any species that is light in weight...

Bingo. . ..

“Swamp Ash” is a nick name applied to Ash lumber; much like “Yellow Pine” is to Pine down here in the South. There are many species of Pine trees that are called Yellow pine, but no real species of Yaller Pine Tree.

Swamp Ash, generally refers to any Ash tree that has grown in an unusually wet area, such as a Swamp.

Since, between the 60’s and the early 90’s, about every Swamp in the country was filled in and turned into a Super Wal-Mart, there just aren’t any remaining to yield “Swamp Ash”.

If that isn’t problematic enough, since the late 80’s the Federal Department of Natural Resources has been declaring just about any damp piece of ground as a Wetland. It’s a federal offense to even walk into a declared wetland to search for a wayward Titliest, much less cut down a tree.

Thus, even if there ever were a real species of Ash that produced real Swamp Ash, there is no place to get it today.

Fender, Warmoth, et al, use an Ash tree known as Spunky Ash today as a substitute for Swamp ash. It’s pretty easy to recognize if you are familiar with the American White Ash that yielded most of the Swamp Ash of the golden years. It has a chalky or muddy Ash color. The Ash of old had a much more clear coloration with some depth.

SO, the reality is, there wasn’t a Swamp Ash, and there is no Swamp Ash, and there isn’t gonna be.

Now, if you peruse some of the lumber sites, you will see “Swamp Ash” listed. That’s because they know the above, that it’s generally acceptable to call anything Swamp Ash, and there is a market for something called Swamp Ash. Caveat Emptor.

Ron Kirn

boris bubbanov · February 24th, 2008, 11:59 PM

Billy G, my local wood dealers are still finding the stuff, and it is for sale, and it is the same tree that was being cleared and burned off of bottomland hardwood areas to make room for soybeans in the 1970s and early 80's. I hate soybeans.

It is 'growback', and just like baldcypress 'growback', is tends towards sapwood and it is not close grained like we'd have found in years past.

If you have permission of the land owner, and the means, you can cut some. Just don't drain the land and convert it to apartments, and you'll be legal.

Now you gotta saw and dry it. That will be the hard part, IMO. I leave that to the guys who know.

A good friend had half of an entire quarter section near Pollack, LA timbered recently, almost a third of which was wetlands. I say a good friend, I'm waiting for the wood he promised me.

I've spent a lot of time kayaking and camping in designated wilderness. I'm just not allowed to bring my mountain bike or truck in there. The wetlands law is a quite different animal altogether.

Ron is right, no such plant as a 'yellow pine'. What adds to the confusion is westerners are calling their pines yellow also, so I call the slash, loblolly, shortleaf and longleaf pine we have SYP or Southern Yellow Pine. NOT recommended for bodies, very unstable although strong.

guitarbuilder · February 25th, 2008, 06:15 AM

Here is another name to search for:

http://www.oplin.org/tree/fact%20pag...ash_black.html

Marty

BillyG · February 25th, 2008, 11:30 AM

Thanks everyone. One more question (for now), if 2.8 lbs per board foot is on the high end of weight acceptability, how light can ash be? I'm in search of feather weight ash.

guitarbuilder · February 25th, 2008, 05:55 PM

According to calculations in a previous thread early in the year( Terry's??), a regulation tele body consumes the volume of 1.85 board feet of wood. You should be able to figure an approximate weight from the blank you start with. A board foot is 144 cubic inches or the equivalent of a 1 x 12 x 12 pc. of wood. If you had a blank that is 2x13x 18= 468 in. cubed. 468/144= 3.25 board feet of wood in that blank. Let's say that blank weighs 6.5 lb total. That translates to 2 lb per board feet. 2 lb/bf X 1.85 bf/ body= a body weight of 3.7 lbs which is nice and light weight. To summarize, you can use this math to determine the approximate final weight of the body given the weight of the blank. Look for something around 2 lb per board foot give or take a few ounces.
Marty

spankdplank · February 25th, 2008, 08:07 PM

My two cents, so take it with a grain of salt. In southeast Texas it rains a lot--60 inches last year, but 40 to 45 is normal. There are lots of what locally is known as "southern" ash trees of various subspecies which grow everywhere. They grow fast with all that rain and heat and the wood is fairly light in weight. No one calls it "swamp" ash, yet this ash is no different from "swamp" ash--its just a light weight southern ash and a marketing term used to sell light weight ash of various varieties to guitar folks. Just about any ash from East Texas to Florida will be lighter in weight than northern grown ash just because of the amount of rain and long growing season, and will qualify as "swamp" ash.

shoretyus · February 25th, 2008, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronkirn

Bingo. . ..

SO, the reality is, there wasn’t a Swamp Ash, and there is no Swamp Ash, and there isn’t gonna be.

Now, if you peruse some of the lumber sites, you will see “Swamp Ash” listed. That’s because they know the above, that it’s generally acceptable to call anything Swamp Ash, and there is a market for something called Swamp Ash. Caveat Emptor.

Ron Kirn

Hmmm .. When I moved to my area ,East Central Ontario, there was lots of dead black ash swamps that yielded great dry firewood and a few friends hand split fence rails. If I had only known. time to hit the backroads.

Geo · February 25th, 2008, 09:37 PM

Guitar Mill's nearby were getting their Ash from NC swamps a few
years back and probably still are.
Visit their website.

February 24th, 2008, 08:03 PM	#1 (permalink)
BillyG Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Summerville, SC Age: 41 Posts: 431	Sourcing Swamp Ash Living in the swampy part of South Carolina, I thought it would be easy to find Swamp Ash. I spent yesterday in wood shops and lumber yards that supply furniture builders, knife makers, gun smiths... One guy even boasted that he supplied luthiers. None of them had swamp ash. Some of them had Northern ash and said that due to the short growing season in the North, the grain is tighter and nicer looking for furniture making. The same guy drew the analogy that mahogany trees that fight for sunlight grow slowly and look way nicer than "plantation mahogany" that grows quickly. I don't want to go to a Warmoth or a USACG. I have nothing against them, I just want to find the wood on my own. I want to hold it, smell it, weigh it... Where should I turn? Any advise? Also, if i do find some, how big should it be roughed out?

February 24th, 2008, 11:59 PM	#4 (permalink)
boris bubbanov Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: New Orleans, LA + in the past Posts: 8,574	Billy G, my local wood dealers are still finding the stuff, and it is for sale, and it is the same tree that was being cleared and burned off of bottomland hardwood areas to make room for soybeans in the 1970s and early 80's. I hate soybeans. It is 'growback', and just like baldcypress 'growback', is tends towards sapwood and it is not close grained like we'd have found in years past. If you have permission of the land owner, and the means, you can cut some. Just don't drain the land and convert it to apartments, and you'll be legal. Now you gotta saw and dry it. That will be the hard part, IMO. I leave that to the guys who know. A good friend had half of an entire quarter section near Pollack, LA timbered recently, almost a third of which was wetlands. I say a good friend, I'm waiting for the wood he promised me. I've spent a lot of time kayaking and camping in designated wilderness. I'm just not allowed to bring my mountain bike or truck in there. The wetlands law is a quite different animal altogether. Ron is right, no such plant as a 'yellow pine'. What adds to the confusion is westerners are calling their pines yellow also, so I call the slash, loblolly, shortleaf and longleaf pine we have SYP or Southern Yellow Pine. NOT recommended for bodies, very unstable although strong. __________________ Bubban0v

February 25th, 2008, 09:37 PM	#10 (permalink)
Geo Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hendersonville, TN Age: 59 Posts: 2,484 15 Photos	Guitar Mill's nearby were getting their Ash from NC swamps a few years back and probably still are. Visit their website. __________________ "Somewhere between culture and agriculture"

February 24th, 2008, 08:46 PM	#2 (permalink)
tonewoods Tele-Holic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Orcas Island, Washington Age: 57 Posts: 679 18 Photos	"Swamp Ash" (in the world of luthiery) is ash of any species that is light in weight... So-ooo, that's what you're looking for.... This outfit states that "Guitar Body Stock weight is 2.8 lbs or less per board foot," so that's a good place to start... You might try searching here for "ash", and see if you can scrounge up something near you. I'm sure you'll find it... Luck!

February 25th, 2008, 06:15 AM	#5 (permalink)
guitarbuilder Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hemlock, NY Age: 54 Posts: 342	Here is another name to search for: http://www.oplin.org/tree/fact%20pag...ash_black.html Marty

February 25th, 2008, 11:30 AM	#6 (permalink)
BillyG Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Summerville, SC Age: 41 Posts: 431	Thanks everyone. One more question (for now), if 2.8 lbs per board foot is on the high end of weight acceptability, how light can ash be? I'm in search of feather weight ash.

February 25th, 2008, 05:55 PM	#7 (permalink)
guitarbuilder Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hemlock, NY Age: 54 Posts: 342	According to calculations in a previous thread early in the year( Terry's??), a regulation tele body consumes the volume of 1.85 board feet of wood. You should be able to figure an approximate weight from the blank you start with. A board foot is 144 cubic inches or the equivalent of a 1 x 12 x 12 pc. of wood. If you had a blank that is 2x13x 18= 468 in. cubed. 468/144= 3.25 board feet of wood in that blank. Let's say that blank weighs 6.5 lb total. That translates to 2 lb per board feet. 2 lb/bf X 1.85 bf/ body= a body weight of 3.7 lbs which is nice and light weight. To summarize, you can use this math to determine the approximate final weight of the body given the weight of the blank. Look for something around 2 lb per board foot give or take a few ounces. Marty

February 25th, 2008, 08:07 PM	#8 (permalink)
spankdplank Tele-Holic Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Houston, Tx. Posts: 695 28 Photos	My two cents, so take it with a grain of salt. In southeast Texas it rains a lot--60 inches last year, but 40 to 45 is normal. There are lots of what locally is known as "southern" ash trees of various subspecies which grow everywhere. They grow fast with all that rain and heat and the wood is fairly light in weight. No one calls it "swamp" ash, yet this ash is no different from "swamp" ash--its just a light weight southern ash and a marketing term used to sell light weight ash of various varieties to guitar folks. Just about any ash from East Texas to Florida will be lighter in weight than northern grown ash just because of the amount of rain and long growing season, and will qualify as "swamp" ash.