The 3 vs 6 Debate Ended

Wop Geronimo · February 24th, 2008, 02:12 AM

For me anyway...

Put the 6 saddle bridge back on my MIM and added one to my Baja... not only do they feel and function better, to my ears they sound better.

YMMV

boris bubbanov · February 24th, 2008, 04:11 AM

Your ears are different that mine, my friend.

Meanwhile I've converted 2 of my four Am Se Teles to a vintage saddle, and it is not easy to do. I converted them because my ears ring when I play steel block saddles. Also the long bridge plate is like when VW came out with the Superbeetle and stuck a 17 inch longer front end on a little bitty car. Just RONG I tell ya.

blue metalflake · February 24th, 2008, 04:43 AM

This is always a good debate to have when the maple vs rosewood, and the 9's vs 10's vs 11's runs dry.

My feel is that the original Tele design was fine, and very much part of the sound and feel of the guitar. Best left alone.

BrianF · February 24th, 2008, 04:58 AM

It would be interesting to hear about anyone's experience with Fender's new 2008 Am Std Tele bridge that is plated brass and uses steel Strat saddles.

JohnnyCrash · February 24th, 2008, 05:26 AM

I know where you're coming from, but I can never go back to 6 saddles anymore.

I can't go to the vintage 3 either though.

I must have 3 compensated saddles on all of my Teles/Esquires.

Sound? I've been able to get great sounds out of both the 3 and the 6, but 6 just looks kinda boring to me. A lot of nitpicking reminds me of the old hype about removing pickup covers... Clapton would make comments in interviews, but at the end of the day, any difference (if there even was one) was so slight it effectively made no difference.

Telemarkman · February 24th, 2008, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue metalflake

This is always a good debate to have when the maple vs rosewood, and the 9's vs 10's vs 11's runs dry.

My feel is that the original Tele design was fine, and very much part of the sound and feel of the guitar. Best left alone.

After being Tele-less for more than 30 years, I bought an AmSe, convinced that the modern features was bound to be better than the vintage ones. Man, was I disappointed

...

Since then I've bought 3 Teles, all of them vintage type 3-saddle bridge models, and sold the AmSe. Now I'm a happy Tele owner

!

BTW, I've never felt the need for compensated saddles as my guitars are as perfectly intonated as I'll ever need them to be. (According to my tuner and my imperfect ears).

Wop Geronimo · February 24th, 2008, 06:58 AM

Honestly my ear ain't good enough to hear a diff anymore... that's the fact lol. It makes sense to me that 3/brass would produce better tone, I just don't hear it but I know many trusted pickers that swear they do.

So for me, it comes down to feel. And for whatever reason the feel of an ashtray under my hand drives me nuts and is an un ending issue with the nature of where my hand sits and muted strings I often play.

Telover · February 24th, 2008, 07:20 AM

I guess it's a matter of personal tastes. I experienced differences several times and they do sound different. But it's impossible to say one sounds better than another one.
For example, I prefer the ringing sound of the late '60s Teles and you get it with steel saddles. The brass ones sound fatter, more mid-tones. The body, neck and pups obviously contribute to the overall sound, but the difference between the different type of saddles is more or less that I described before. Of course the 6 saddles bridge it's better 'cause the intonation of each string, but I prefer the 3 saddles bridge. Maybe I'm too old times fashioned, but to me the Tele is that with 3 saddles bridge.
Functionality versus classicism.

cband7 · February 24th, 2008, 07:26 AM

This is why I love this forum - 497 different opinions all in one place

I have a Squire VM Thinline with the six steel saddles and a severely modded Jay Turser JTLT with a Wilkinson compensated 3 barrel. They have completely different pickups so I can't compare the sound based on the bridge but at the end of the day, I like the Wilkinson far better just based on looks: 3 barrels just look cleaner and more 'vintage'. Opinion # 498.

Telover · February 24th, 2008, 07:57 AM

lambchop · February 24th, 2008, 08:51 AM

Not this old chestnut again!! I like a vintage bridge with 6 saddles so there

BillyG · February 24th, 2008, 09:57 AM

IMO the 3 saddle bridge looks so much better that it must sound better too.

rhomco · February 24th, 2008, 10:30 AM

Twelve saddles!

Rob, (The Tele12 Rob)

Telarkaster · February 24th, 2008, 10:33 AM

If you replace a crappy MIM 6 saddle bridge with a fancy expensive 3 saddle one made of different material (brass instead of steel), chances are it will sound better, or at least different.. But what if you already have a nice 6 saddle bridge? What is better sounding is totally subjective.

I love how my 6 saddle 1995 American Standard sounds. I have no inclination to change it. It sounds and plays like a Tele. If you don't like how it looks that's your business. I tried a 3 saddle Baja the other day. That sounded great too. I would have no motivation to change that either. If it sounds good and works, great. But I am not convinced that one sounds better than the other.

3 Chord · February 24th, 2008, 10:42 AM

Well James Burton uses a six setup (maybe strat style) and Albert Lee has an original on his old Tele. The only thing I hear when I listen to them is "man I've got a lot to learn".

On the other hand, my 76 Tele is stock and my Nashville came with a 6, and I sometimes think the 6 rattles a little bit.

Like most things, personal preference.

Caffeine Patrol · February 24th, 2008, 10:45 AM

"This is always a good debate to have when the maple vs rosewood, and the 9's vs 10's vs 11's runs dry."

Hee, hee--or "hey, what's wrong with Peaveys?"

Having had both, I just can't hang with six saddles on a Tele; fine for a Strat or a G & L, but not a Tele. Don't know why, maybe it's like the proverbial lipstick on a pig.

Telemarkman · February 24th, 2008, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyG

IMO the 3 saddle bridge looks so much better that it must sound better too.

Yes, yes, yes

...

yegbert · February 24th, 2008, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telarkaster

What is better sounding is totally subjective.

I agree with this.

Some folks don't hear any tonal differences and think those of us who spend time thinking about this are crazy. And it just may be a lunatic they're looking for.

If you're one of those Tele lovers who do like to think about this stuff, it's fun to have Teles set up with variations so you can compare.

I have several Squier Standard Teles that I've converted to vintage spec 3-saddle bridges. All of these have the relatively inexpensive FENDER PAT PEND thin steel bridgeplate. One of these has compensated Glendale stainless steel saddles, one has Fender straight brass saddles, one has Fender straight threaded steel saddles, and three have Fender straight grooved steel saddles.

I have one Squier Standard Tele with its stock thick L-shaped plate and six rectangular saddles.

Ed Bickert · February 24th, 2008, 01:03 PM

So that's a wrap? The debate is over? LOL!

woodman · February 24th, 2008, 01:08 PM

i've gone full circle, from vintage 3 (way back when) to 6 (early '90s) and back to compensated 3 -- the shelved-notch saddles give the spot-on intonation i was seeking in the 6-saddle.

Telarkaster · February 24th, 2008, 01:35 PM

This works for me, maybe not for you, and that's cool...

Wop Geronimo · February 24th, 2008, 01:48 PM

It was actually meant to be funny

This and many other debates may never end, but for me it has. I actually tend to believe there is a tonal diff, just not enough for me to play something that don't feel good to me. On the other hand I am a bit of a tone slacker... damn me for accepting good enough lol.

Differences makes the world go round, think how many cool things we would not have if we all agreed and never had a different vision.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Bickert

So that's a wrap? The debate is over? LOL!

Telemarkman · February 24th, 2008, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telarkaster

This works for me, maybe not for you, and that's cool...

Well, at least you got your pickup tilting the right way

.....

Spunky99 · February 24th, 2008, 02:11 PM

My 2 cents worth which is really worth nothing.....

I like the spot on intonation of the various versions of the 6 saddle bridges but I have heard them rattle and sometimes I hear this funny string vibration. I live in an apartment so I have to play unamplified or at low volumes so I hear this pretty easily. Plus my ears are very damaged and are so thick with scar tissue, I can hear a flyback transformer a mile away. I can't understand a word in a crowded bar with music playing and I can't tell the difference between the bass notes unless I feel them in my body. So because of my FUBAR ears, I prefer the vintage style 3 barrel brass compensated saddles like the Barden types. I get OK intonation and no bridge noises.

Tom S · February 24th, 2008, 02:17 PM

Eh, 6-saddle, 3-saddle, whatever you like. This debate never dies. Why is that?

For all the talk of how saddles affect tone, there isn't a single person on this forum who could tell you what you've got on your tele if they could only hear, but couldn't see the guitar.

However, if you simply turned your amp's treble knob up or down 50%, almost everyone could tell you what you did, blindfolded.

So what does that say?

The difference is that one change is obvous to anyone; the other is so subtle that it causes great debate as to whether or not it even occurs.

But let's say saddle type or material does impact "tone." The next question is how much; to what degree?

Just for lack of something better to do, we can define tone as the the final character of the sound coming out of an amp's speaker. (Let's say we're only interested in the live sound in a small venue; recording brings in a bunch of other variables.) Discussions about the unplugged sound of an electric guitar are wonderful fun, but for all intents and purposes, are irrelevant and pointless (unless you never plan to play your electric guitar amplified, in which case you should get an acoustic guitar).

Having defined tone in this way, the only changes in tone we can ever expect to achieve are those that affect the frequency spectrum in some way. Saddle type and material may affect the frequency spectrum, but here are some things that can impact it far more dramatically (not necessarily in order of magnitude):

Amp type
Amp EQ
Amp speakers
Guitar tone control setting
Guitar tone circuit (caps and pots values)
Pick vs. fingers
How the strings are plucked with either pick or fingers
Pickup type
String age, type, and gauge
Guitar volume control level
Etc.

Anyone can demonstrate these affects easily and obviously for themselves, and just about any listener will be able to distinguish that a change has been made to the tone by manipulating any one of them.

So is it worthwhile to even bother arguing about the tonal aspects of saddle type/material? Just use what you like, what looks/feels right to you.

For the record, I currently have the following installed on my telecasters/tele-type guitars:
Modern bridge, 6-saddle chromed brass (I think)
Vintage-style bridge, 3-barrel, non-compensated brass (2 guitars)
Vintage-style bridge, 3-barrel, compensated brass (2 guitars)
Vintage-style bridge, 3-barrel, compensated brass/aluminum E-A (Glendale)
Modern bridge, 6-saddle graphtek
Schaller fine tuner TOM-style bridge
Schaller Floyd Rose
Steinberger Synapse non-trem

P.S. Don't get me started on "tonewoods."

February 24th, 2008, 02:12 AM	#1 (permalink)
Wop Geronimo Tele-Holic Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Confusion, USA Age: 31 Posts: 550	The 3 vs 6 Debate Ended For me anyway... Put the 6 saddle bridge back on my MIM and added one to my Baja... not only do they feel and function better, to my ears they sound better. YMMV

February 24th, 2008, 04:11 AM	#2 (permalink)
boris bubbanov Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: New Orleans, LA + in the past Posts: 8,574	Your ears are different that mine, my friend. Meanwhile I've converted 2 of my four Am Se Teles to a vintage saddle, and it is not easy to do. I converted them because my ears ring when I play steel block saddles. Also the long bridge plate is like when VW came out with the Superbeetle and stuck a 17 inch longer front end on a little bitty car. Just RONG I tell ya. __________________ Bubban0v

February 24th, 2008, 07:20 AM	#8 (permalink)
Telover Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Italy Posts: 103	I guess it's a matter of personal tastes. I experienced differences several times and they do sound different. But it's impossible to say one sounds better than another one. For example, I prefer the ringing sound of the late '60s Teles and you get it with steel saddles. The brass ones sound fatter, more mid-tones. The body, neck and pups obviously contribute to the overall sound, but the difference between the different type of saddles is more or less that I described before. Of course the 6 saddles bridge it's better 'cause the intonation of each string, but I prefer the 3 saddles bridge. Maybe I'm too old times fashioned, but to me the Tele is that with 3 saddles bridge. Functionality versus classicism. __________________

February 24th, 2008, 07:26 AM	#9 (permalink)
cband7 Tele-Meister Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Kwajalein, Marshall Islands Age: 54 Posts: 180	This is why I love this forum - 497 different opinions all in one place I have a Squire VM Thinline with the six steel saddles and a severely modded Jay Turser JTLT with a Wilkinson compensated 3 barrel. They have completely different pickups so I can't compare the sound based on the bridge but at the end of the day, I like the Wilkinson far better just based on looks: 3 barrels just look cleaner and more 'vintage'. Opinion # 498. __________________ "If I had only known, I would have been a locksmith." --Albert Einstein

February 24th, 2008, 07:57 AM	#10 (permalink)
Telover Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Italy Posts: 103	__________________

February 24th, 2008, 04:43 AM	#3 (permalink)
blue metalflake Friend of Leo's Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: ireland Age: 55 Posts: 2,343 10 Photos	This is always a good debate to have when the maple vs rosewood, and the 9's vs 10's vs 11's runs dry. My feel is that the original Tele design was fine, and very much part of the sound and feel of the guitar. Best left alone.

February 24th, 2008, 04:58 AM	#4 (permalink)
BrianF Friend of Leo's Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Carlsbad, Ca Posts: 2,155 7 Photos	It would be interesting to hear about anyone's experience with Fender's new 2008 Am Std Tele bridge that is plated brass and uses steel Strat saddles.

February 24th, 2008, 05:26 AM	#5 (permalink)
JohnnyCrash Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Lost Angeles and Orange County Posts: 7,128	I know where you're coming from, but I can never go back to 6 saddles anymore. I can't go to the vintage 3 either though. I must have 3 compensated saddles on all of my Teles/Esquires. Sound? I've been able to get great sounds out of both the 3 and the 6, but 6 just looks kinda boring to me. A lot of nitpicking reminds me of the old hype about removing pickup covers... Clapton would make comments in interviews, but at the end of the day, any difference (if there even was one) was so slight it effectively made no difference.

February 24th, 2008, 06:58 AM	#7 (permalink)
Wop Geronimo Tele-Holic Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Confusion, USA Age: 31 Posts: 550	Honestly my ear ain't good enough to hear a diff anymore... that's the fact lol. It makes sense to me that 3/brass would produce better tone, I just don't hear it but I know many trusted pickers that swear they do. So for me, it comes down to feel. And for whatever reason the feel of an ashtray under my hand drives me nuts and is an un ending issue with the nature of where my hand sits and muted strings I often play.

February 24th, 2008, 08:51 AM	#11 (permalink)
lambchop TDPRI Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: England, U.K. Posts: 85	Not this old chestnut again!! I like a vintage bridge with 6 saddles so there __________________ http://www.myspace.com/solenoidlopez

February 24th, 2008, 09:57 AM	#12 (permalink)
BillyG Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Summerville, SC Age: 41 Posts: 431	IMO the 3 saddle bridge looks so much better that it must sound better too.

February 24th, 2008, 10:30 AM	#13 (permalink)
rhomco Tele-Holic Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Crowley, Texas Posts: 754	Gentlemen, I must insist on Twelve saddles! Rob, (The Tele12 Rob) __________________ If I won the Lotto.... I'd just build (OK, OK Assemble) guitars and sell them till the money ran out

February 24th, 2008, 10:33 AM	#14 (permalink)
Telarkaster Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Montreal Quebec Canada Posts: 1,801	If you replace a crappy MIM 6 saddle bridge with a fancy expensive 3 saddle one made of different material (brass instead of steel), chances are it will sound better, or at least different.. But what if you already have a nice 6 saddle bridge? What is better sounding is totally subjective. I love how my 6 saddle 1995 American Standard sounds. I have no inclination to change it. It sounds and plays like a Tele. If you don't like how it looks that's your business. I tried a 3 saddle Baja the other day. That sounded great too. I would have no motivation to change that either. If it sounds good and works, great. But I am not convinced that one sounds better than the other.

February 24th, 2008, 10:42 AM	#15 (permalink)
3 Chord Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Billings MT Age: 42 Posts: 152	Well James Burton uses a six setup (maybe strat style) and Albert Lee has an original on his old Tele. The only thing I hear when I listen to them is "man I've got a lot to learn". On the other hand, my 76 Tele is stock and my Nashville came with a 6, and I sometimes think the 6 rattles a little bit. Like most things, personal preference.

February 24th, 2008, 10:45 AM	#16 (permalink)
Caffeine Patrol Tele-Meister Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 392	"This is always a good debate to have when the maple vs rosewood, and the 9's vs 10's vs 11's runs dry." Hee, hee--or "hey, what's wrong with Peaveys?" Having had both, I just can't hang with six saddles on a Tele; fine for a Strat or a G & L, but not a Tele. Don't know why, maybe it's like the proverbial lipstick on a pig.

February 24th, 2008, 01:03 PM	#19 (permalink)
Ed Bickert Tele-Holic Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Cape Cod, MA Age: 40 Posts: 946	So that's a wrap? The debate is over? LOL! __________________ Sorry, not the real Ed Bickert. Just a fan.

February 24th, 2008, 01:08 PM	#20 (permalink)
woodman Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Mint Hill, NC Age: 62 Posts: 5,968	i've gone full circle, from vintage 3 (way back when) to 6 (early '90s) and back to compensated 3 -- the shelved-notch saddles give the spot-on intonation i was seeking in the 6-saddle. __________________ Truth is stranger than fact ... www.myspace.com/woodymitchellmusic BAND PAGES: www.myspace.com/stragglerswing (Stragglers - Western Swing) www.myspace.com/loafersgloryband (Loafers Glory - '70s country-rock)

February 24th, 2008, 01:35 PM	#21 (permalink)
Telarkaster Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Montreal Quebec Canada Posts: 1,801	This works for me, maybe not for you, and that's cool...

February 24th, 2008, 02:11 PM	#24 (permalink)
Spunky99 Tele-Meister Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Redondo beach Age: 54 Posts: 349	My 2 cents worth which is really worth nothing..... I like the spot on intonation of the various versions of the 6 saddle bridges but I have heard them rattle and sometimes I hear this funny string vibration. I live in an apartment so I have to play unamplified or at low volumes so I hear this pretty easily. Plus my ears are very damaged and are so thick with scar tissue, I can hear a flyback transformer a mile away. I can't understand a word in a crowded bar with music playing and I can't tell the difference between the bass notes unless I feel them in my body. So because of my FUBAR ears, I prefer the vintage style 3 barrel brass compensated saddles like the Barden types. I get OK intonation and no bridge noises.

February 24th, 2008, 02:17 PM	#25 (permalink)
Tom S Friend of Leo's Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,211 49 Photos	Eh, 6-saddle, 3-saddle, whatever you like. This debate never dies. Why is that? For all the talk of how saddles affect tone, there isn't a single person on this forum who could tell you what you've got on your tele if they could only hear, but couldn't see the guitar. However, if you simply turned your amp's treble knob up or down 50%, almost everyone could tell you what you did, blindfolded. So what does that say? The difference is that one change is obvous to anyone; the other is so subtle that it causes great debate as to whether or not it even occurs. But let's say saddle type or material does impact "tone." The next question is how much; to what degree? Just for lack of something better to do, we can define tone as the the final character of the sound coming out of an amp's speaker. (Let's say we're only interested in the live sound in a small venue; recording brings in a bunch of other variables.) Discussions about the unplugged sound of an electric guitar are wonderful fun, but for all intents and purposes, are irrelevant and pointless (unless you never plan to play your electric guitar amplified, in which case you should get an acoustic guitar). Having defined tone in this way, the only changes in tone we can ever expect to achieve are those that affect the frequency spectrum in some way. Saddle type and material may affect the frequency spectrum, but here are some things that can impact it far more dramatically (not necessarily in order of magnitude): Amp type Amp EQ Amp speakers Guitar tone control setting Guitar tone circuit (caps and pots values) Pick vs. fingers How the strings are plucked with either pick or fingers Pickup type String age, type, and gauge Guitar volume control level Etc. Anyone can demonstrate these affects easily and obviously for themselves, and just about any listener will be able to distinguish that a change has been made to the tone by manipulating any one of them. So is it worthwhile to even bother arguing about the tonal aspects of saddle type/material? Just use what you like, what looks/feels right to you. For the record, I currently have the following installed on my telecasters/tele-type guitars: Modern bridge, 6-saddle chromed brass (I think) Vintage-style bridge, 3-barrel, non-compensated brass (2 guitars) Vintage-style bridge, 3-barrel, compensated brass (2 guitars) Vintage-style bridge, 3-barrel, compensated brass/aluminum E-A (Glendale) Modern bridge, 6-saddle graphtek Schaller fine tuner TOM-style bridge Schaller Floyd Rose Steinberger Synapse non-trem P.S. Don't get me started on "tonewoods."