A breathtaking look at the future of guitar building

fierce_carrot · February 8th, 2008, 07:05 AM

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...&sbv=Craftsman

This tool from Craftsman is a glimpse at how the future of guitar building will soon change forever. The ability to have your own computer controlled system in your shop is incredible. You will have the ability to carve and route your own guitar bodies and necks and not have to have decades worth of experience or a shop full of hand tools.

It's the first of it's kind, so it's expensive and appears to have it's share of "quirks", but this is a glimpse of the future and I LIKE IT!!

Birdsnest · February 8th, 2008, 07:36 AM

Very interesting indeed.

jwells393 · February 8th, 2008, 07:52 AM

Hmmmm............

.....Maybe not.

Jellecaster · February 8th, 2008, 07:55 AM

For me, the fun of building a guitar is doing it myself. I really want to start building my own necks so I can have that satisfaction. Having my own CNC would be very cool, but would defeat the purpose of building my own guitars. Just my $0.02.

ChicknPickn · February 8th, 2008, 08:05 AM

Does beg the question: Why bother?

fierce_carrot · February 8th, 2008, 08:14 AM

The ability for people to try NEW and some very innovative ideas is exciting. I for one am tired of the same 4 or 5 guitar body styles year after year after year. There is very little innovation going on IMO. To allow others the opportunity to now bring their innovative ideas to the table is something I find exciting.

ChicknPickn · February 8th, 2008, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fierce_carrot

The ability for people to try NEW and some very innovative ideas is exciting. I for one am tired of the same 4 or 5 guitar body styles year after year after year. There is very little innovation going on IMO. To allow others the opportunity to now bring their innovative ideas to the table is something I find exciting.

I hear ya, Carrot. I work in computer technology, so I evaluate new gadgets and systems fairly often. I guess a lot of people feel that a guitar - - especially one they build - - is a work of art. Some, like myself, might question how much art is left in computerized processes. I'm sure it could set off a whole "modernists versus traditionalists" debate. Personally, I think that with computerized processes, we allow ourselves to get further and further from the true art of creation. What happens if the power goes out?

I know it may sound silly to some, but I'm more amazed by the skills of Amish carpenters using hand tools than the skills of people using, say, Photoshop on a high-end workstation. The Photoshop people stand on the shoulders of giants, whereas the Amish carpenter IS the giant.

Trimmed&Burnin · February 8th, 2008, 08:23 AM

These little machines are cool if you are working soft wood, thin wood, dont need to maintian any tolerances, and dont mind replacing most of the parts every year. These things are designed to replicate pre-set patterens on wood plaques, small cabinet doors, maybe a drawer front, and molding. Your bacic POC model.

Brent Hutto · February 8th, 2008, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChicknPickn

What happens if the power goes out?

If the power goes out we ain't gonna be playing a Tele through a Twin Reverb, are we?

Quote:

I know it may sound silly to some, but I'm more amazed by the skills of Amish carpenters using hand tools than the skills of people using, say, Photoshop on a high-end workstation.

I might respectfully suggest that some portion of your amazement is because you could learn fairly quickly to do high-end Photoshop manipulation but it would take you years, if ever, to learn how to assemble and raise a barn with Amish techniques. That Amish carpenter might find using hand tools less amazing that what can be done by Photoshop.

Or maybe not, part of accepting the Amish lifestyle probably arises from a tendency to find satisfaction in things a lot simpler than computer graphics.

There's a strong stream of discourse throughout this forum in which things are valued more or less because of how they were built or where they were built (or when they were built for that matter). Nothing wrong with valuing the origin of an object but it does leave those of us who value things for what they are and what they are used for rather than for their history. Appreciation of a CNC carved guitar falls squarely in the latter category, innit?

Jellecaster · February 8th, 2008, 08:45 AM

It's not appreciation of the guitar that's the issue. If you want to build guitars with CNC - good for you! Seriously. This isn't a value judgment at all. There nothing wrong with someone building a guitar (or anything else) with CNC. But for me, the point would be lost.

I am a computer programmer. I teach programming all day long. For me (just me) the process of building a guitar with my hands using hand tools (I know the router isn't strictly a hand tool, but you get my point) is very cathartic and gratifying. If I'm going to have a computer build the guitar for me, I might as well just let Fender build it for me instead.

IronJoe · February 8th, 2008, 08:50 AM

If it means boutique builders can make guitars that are price-competitive with imported guitars, then I like it a lot.

Brent Hutto · February 8th, 2008, 08:53 AM

I guess I'm just being argumentative but I've got to say that having a few operations done with a CNC router is hardly the same as a computer building a guitar. I can see why someone might want to build a guitar with nothing electrically powered or more elaborate than a chisel. If you could actually do that it was be a great accomplishment and it would certainly offer hours and hours of fun if you find hand-carving and sanding to be fun (and I know some people do). Then again, I can see why someone would enjoy doing it with the normal power tools that most people use.

But I can also see how someone might be into trying a dozen wild variations of body shapes and by using an automated router of some sort they might could churn them out in a week instead of a year and therefore get to try more variations. If you start from raw materials and end up with a playable instrument, then in my book you have "built a guitar" no matter what tools you use. And a programmable router is no different conceptually than a regular electric router or a chisel.

ChicknPickn · February 8th, 2008, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brent Hutto

If the power goes out we ain't gonna be playing a Tele through a Twin Reverb, are we?

I might respectfully suggest that some portion of your amazement is because you could learn fairly quickly to do high-end Photoshop manipulation but it would take you years, if ever, to learn how to assemble and raise a barn with Amish techniques. That Amish carpenter might find using hand tools less amazing that what can be done by Photoshop.

Or maybe not, part of accepting the Amish lifestyle probably arises from a tendency to find satisfaction in things a lot simpler than computer graphics.

There's a strong stream of discourse throughout this forum in which things are valued more or less because of how they were built or where they were built (or when they were built for that matter). Nothing wrong with valuing the origin of an object but it does leave those of us who value things for what they are and what they are used for rather than for their history. Appreciation of a CNC carved guitar falls squarely in the latter category, innit?

If the power goes out, the Tele functions fairly well in its own right.

As for your other remarks, I couldn't have stated the case more articulately myself.

For anyone who cares, the Buddhist outlook is that there is no past and no future, only the present. The Buddha said that the only way to know a thing is through experiencing it. A CNC object has an absolute value in the present moment - - how it came to be doesn't change what it is. Unless you want to understand how it came to be, that is. Perhaps the process through which form emerges out of a need for function is what fascinates many instrument builders. People looking for that sort of understanding flock to this website rather than seminars on CNC, eh?

Choose your weapons. I used a 50+ year-old hand drill to bore holes in a maple peghead this week. The holes were straight and smooth. The control one has over these things is superb.

Scott McCray · February 8th, 2008, 09:11 AM

...haven't seen a Tele yet.

Liquid Guitars

These guys are the manufacturer - they sell it under their name as well as the licensed version at Sears.

CarveWright

I could definitely see it as useful for roughing blanks - followed by hands on work. By all reports, you need somewhere else to be while it's working 'cause it's incredibly noisy.

Jellecaster · February 8th, 2008, 09:15 AM

I come to this as an absolute purist - meaning that the only guitar that I will ever build is a Tele. I only play Teles and only collect Teles. I have no desire to build any variations. That's just me.

I didn't mean to suggest that there was no craftsmanship involved when using a CNC. I guess the bottom line is that, I don't build guitars because I need more guitars. God knows, I have WAY more than I'll ever need already. I build them because I love the process. Using CNC would take most of that away for me.

djinn1973 · February 8th, 2008, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChicknPickn

Does beg the question: Why bother?

Because if I can find the room for it (and the money) I can finally have that left handed what ever that I have always wanted...

HiggyDude · February 8th, 2008, 10:13 AM

[quote=Scott McCray;1106325]
These guys are the manufacturer - they sell it under their name as well as the licensed version at Sears.
CarveWright
[quote]

If you go to the CarveWright site you can see a pic of the machine carving out a Les Paul / PRS type body. I recieived a WoodCraft catalog a week ago and the CarveWright was pictured - I had to do a double take to be sure I was seeing a guitar body coming out of it. Surprisingly the text in the catalog never mentioned using it for making guitar bodies. I went to their site to se if I could find templates for guitars in their software - Patter Depot they call it - they get you to buy the machine then hook you with buying the probe accessories - I guess so one could trace any guitar body (or anything for that matter) and reproduce it....

Here is the pic I copied from their website - ironically the pic is no where to be found now...this is the one that was in the catalog.

I truly can appreciate building guitars with hand tools and sweat but if you're a small shop - for around 2 grand you can't go wrong - it's a no brainer in my book.

hwestman · February 8th, 2008, 10:48 AM

I think it looks pretty cool!

In a sense it is only the next step from using routing templates. It's just that you make a digital template instead of a physical one...and plywood templates aren't cheating so why should this be?

Maybe we'll see a development similar to that of recording equipment where the power of production is made available to the masses!

boris bubbanov · February 8th, 2008, 12:37 PM

I'd have to look at it real carefully, to see if it is made well enough. Coming from Sears, I must assume it is not made to last 20 years until somebody shows me.

I also know this. This thing is $ 1,800. Unless you can find high quality wood at real low cost, you're going to have to make fifty bodies just to make the thing pay for itself. If it really worked and 30 of us bought one, this and every web site like it would be flooded with excess bodies for sale; the price of the bodies would collapse and now you need to make one or two hundred.

The ability, the gift of selecting the best wood is, IMO, as rare or rarer than exceptional guitar playing acumen. There are bodies and there are bodies, in blank form, same with neck blanks. Owning this machine, fully programmed, does not I fear mean automatic bodies. Just dropping in blanks and sanding what comes out is not enough for me, I suspect.

It sure would put Eden and others like them out of business.

Tom S · February 8th, 2008, 01:51 PM

A machine like this is very appealing to me, in concept anyway. I love building, but let's be honest, there are plenty of woodworking jobs that are just tedious.

For instance, radiusing a fretboard isn't really my idea of a fun afternoon. It's just boring work.

Then there's stuff like inlay work which I'd love to do, but suck at.

The main problem is that which Brent mentioned: I have a lot of ideas for necks and bodies. But to test them, you have to build them, which takes a lot of time. Some ideas won't work out in the end. That can mean a lot of time invested in scrap wood.

Plus, my "shop" situation makes it difficult for me to get the amount of time I need for projects. It's a garage setup, and I have to pull the cars out, set everything up, yadda, yadda. And there is a fairly limited window on when I can work throughout the year too, because it's often too cold out there in the fall and winter and too hot in the summer. It's frustrating. So a machine like this could be a godsend, save me tons of time in trying out all different kinds of things. I'm really tempted from that point of view.

On the other hand, this machine has been available for well over a year now (as either Craftsman or Carvewright brand, same thing). If you spend some time reading about it and checking out the user forums for it, you might start to get the impression that it's maybe still not 100% ready for prime time. There seem to be a number of issues, including:

the thing not working correctly with all kinds of things that need to be "checked",
breakdowns or part failures,
fairly high maintenance (constant cleaning),
slightly dodgy software with false error messages,
carving is really noisy,
carving is really slow,
scanning things with the probe is even slower
the whole shebang has a big learning curve.

But some people seem to love it.

Regardless, I'd love to try one. But for $1800, (more like $2400 if you get the probe and all the bits, which you'll probably want too) I don't think I'm willing to test the waters.

MarkAdam · February 8th, 2008, 03:59 PM

It's been talked about, last year....

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-tech...ght=CompuCarve
and
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/telecaste...ght=CompuCarve
and
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/bad-dog-c...ght=CompuCarve
and
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/bad-dog-c...ght=CompuCarve

jwells393 · February 8th, 2008, 04:24 PM

This wouldn't work for carving out computer designs but if you have a guitar body or neck you want to copy here's a low tech alternative you could build yourself. I present to you ............. the Copy Carver.

......

......

http://www.copycarver.com/

Boubou · February 8th, 2008, 05:10 PM

I have read a bit about this machine, I might work, but then again it might not. As someone mentionned the tolerance on the mcahine is not the same as an industrial one. I think it is more geared towards the woodworker who wants to replicate a carving, for lets say put on 3 drawer fronts, they do not have to be exactly the same ( they most likely wont). however to fit a neck precisely you might have a problem. Still thats a nice machine. I work wood with hand and power tools, and its much more satisfying to do it with hand tools.

February 8th, 2008, 07:05 AM	#1 (permalink)
fierce_carrot Tele-Holic Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Iowa Age: 52 Posts: 985	A breathtaking look at the future of guitar building http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...&sbv=Craftsman This tool from Craftsman is a glimpse at how the future of guitar building will soon change forever. The ability to have your own computer controlled system in your shop is incredible. You will have the ability to carve and route your own guitar bodies and necks and not have to have decades worth of experience or a shop full of hand tools. It's the first of it's kind, so it's expensive and appears to have it's share of "quirks", but this is a glimpse of the future and I LIKE IT!!

February 8th, 2008, 07:36 AM	#2 (permalink)
Birdsnest Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 232	Very interesting indeed. __________________ Let Fury Have The Hour

February 8th, 2008, 07:52 AM	#3 (permalink)
jwells393 Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Albuquerque, USA Age: 64 Posts: 11,698 101 Photos	Hmmmm.................Maybe not. __________________ Jack's Disclaimer: When I say something.... always ask yourself ..... "What the hell does he know?" _ Guys - learn to disable the flash on your digital cameras.

February 8th, 2008, 07:55 AM	#4 (permalink)
Jellecaster Friend of Leo's Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: New Hampshire, USA Age: 39 Posts: 2,062	For me, the fun of building a guitar is doing it myself. I really want to start building my own necks so I can have that satisfaction. Having my own CNC would be very cool, but would defeat the purpose of building my own guitars. Just my $0.02. __________________ It was born at the junction of form and function...

February 8th, 2008, 08:23 AM	#8 (permalink)
Trimmed&Burnin Tele-Holic Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bellingham Wa Age: 54 Posts: 807	These little machines are cool if you are working soft wood, thin wood, dont need to maintian any tolerances, and dont mind replacing most of the parts every year. These things are designed to replicate pre-set patterens on wood plaques, small cabinet doors, maybe a drawer front, and molding. Your bacic POC model. __________________ Keep your lamp Trimmed And Burnin Shannon,

February 8th, 2008, 08:05 AM	#5 (permalink)
ChicknPickn Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Suffolk, VA Age: 45 Posts: 434	Does beg the question: Why bother?

February 8th, 2008, 08:14 AM	#6 (permalink)
fierce_carrot Tele-Holic Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Iowa Age: 52 Posts: 985	The ability for people to try NEW and some very innovative ideas is exciting. I for one am tired of the same 4 or 5 guitar body styles year after year after year. There is very little innovation going on IMO. To allow others the opportunity to now bring their innovative ideas to the table is something I find exciting.

February 8th, 2008, 08:45 AM	#10 (permalink)
Jellecaster Friend of Leo's Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: New Hampshire, USA Age: 39 Posts: 2,062	It's not appreciation of the guitar that's the issue. If you want to build guitars with CNC - good for you! Seriously. This isn't a value judgment at all. There nothing wrong with someone building a guitar (or anything else) with CNC. But for me, the point would be lost. I am a computer programmer. I teach programming all day long. For me (just me) the process of building a guitar with my hands using hand tools (I know the router isn't strictly a hand tool, but you get my point) is very cathartic and gratifying. If I'm going to have a computer build the guitar for me, I might as well just let Fender build it for me instead. __________________ It was born at the junction of form and function...

February 8th, 2008, 08:50 AM	#11 (permalink)
IronJoe Tele-Meister Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Raleigh, NC Age: 33 Posts: 413	If it means boutique builders can make guitars that are price-competitive with imported guitars, then I like it a lot.

February 8th, 2008, 08:53 AM	#12 (permalink)
Brent Hutto Tele-Holic Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: South Carolina Posts: 658 6 Photos	I guess I'm just being argumentative but I've got to say that having a few operations done with a CNC router is hardly the same as a computer building a guitar. I can see why someone might want to build a guitar with nothing electrically powered or more elaborate than a chisel. If you could actually do that it was be a great accomplishment and it would certainly offer hours and hours of fun if you find hand-carving and sanding to be fun (and I know some people do). Then again, I can see why someone would enjoy doing it with the normal power tools that most people use. But I can also see how someone might be into trying a dozen wild variations of body shapes and by using an automated router of some sort they might could churn them out in a week instead of a year and therefore get to try more variations. If you start from raw materials and end up with a playable instrument, then in my book you have "built a guitar" no matter what tools you use. And a programmable router is no different conceptually than a regular electric router or a chisel. __________________ ON HIATUS

February 8th, 2008, 09:11 AM	#14 (permalink)
Scott McCray Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Charlotte (and Cullowhee), NC Age: 49 Posts: 256 16 Photos	This guy uses one for some of his guitars... ...haven't seen a Tele yet. Liquid Guitars These guys are the manufacturer - they sell it under their name as well as the licensed version at Sears. CarveWright I could definitely see it as useful for roughing blanks - followed by hands on work. By all reports, you need somewhere else to be while it's working 'cause it's incredibly noisy. __________________ You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline - it helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer. -- Frank Zappa

February 8th, 2008, 09:15 AM	#15 (permalink)
Jellecaster Friend of Leo's Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: New Hampshire, USA Age: 39 Posts: 2,062	I come to this as an absolute purist - meaning that the only guitar that I will ever build is a Tele. I only play Teles and only collect Teles. I have no desire to build any variations. That's just me. I didn't mean to suggest that there was no craftsmanship involved when using a CNC. I guess the bottom line is that, I don't build guitars because I need more guitars. God knows, I have WAY more than I'll ever need already. I build them because I love the process. Using CNC would take most of that away for me. __________________ It was born at the junction of form and function...

February 8th, 2008, 10:13 AM	#17 (permalink)
HiggyDude Tele-Meister Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Tempe, AZ Age: 45 Posts: 257	CarveWright - Making Guitar Body Pic [quote=Scott McCray;1106325] These guys are the manufacturer - they sell it under their name as well as the licensed version at Sears. CarveWright [quote] If you go to the CarveWright site you can see a pic of the machine carving out a Les Paul / PRS type body. I recieived a WoodCraft catalog a week ago and the CarveWright was pictured - I had to do a double take to be sure I was seeing a guitar body coming out of it. Surprisingly the text in the catalog never mentioned using it for making guitar bodies. I went to their site to se if I could find templates for guitars in their software - Patter Depot they call it - they get you to buy the machine then hook you with buying the probe accessories - I guess so one could trace any guitar body (or anything for that matter) and reproduce it.... Here is the pic I copied from their website - ironically the pic is no where to be found now...this is the one that was in the catalog. I truly can appreciate building guitars with hand tools and sweat but if you're a small shop - for around 2 grand you can't go wrong - it's a no brainer in my book. __________________ Pursue your dreams...and hopefully you have a Tele, tube amp and cold beer to accompany you on your journey! ---------------------------------------------- Twang on...HiggyDude Http://www.higgydude.com

February 8th, 2008, 10:48 AM	#18 (permalink)
hwestman Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 324	I think it looks pretty cool! In a sense it is only the next step from using routing templates. It's just that you make a digital template instead of a physical one...and plywood templates aren't cheating so why should this be? Maybe we'll see a development similar to that of recording equipment where the power of production is made available to the masses!

February 8th, 2008, 12:37 PM	#19 (permalink)
boris bubbanov Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: New Orleans, LA + in the past Posts: 7,149	I'd have to look at it real carefully, to see if it is made well enough. Coming from Sears, I must assume it is not made to last 20 years until somebody shows me. I also know this. This thing is $ 1,800. Unless you can find high quality wood at real low cost, you're going to have to make fifty bodies just to make the thing pay for itself. If it really worked and 30 of us bought one, this and every web site like it would be flooded with excess bodies for sale; the price of the bodies would collapse and now you need to make one or two hundred. The ability, the gift of selecting the best wood is, IMO, as rare or rarer than exceptional guitar playing acumen. There are bodies and there are bodies, in blank form, same with neck blanks. Owning this machine, fully programmed, does not I fear mean automatic bodies. Just dropping in blanks and sanding what comes out is not enough for me, I suspect. It sure would put Eden and others like them out of business. __________________ Bubban0v

February 8th, 2008, 01:51 PM	#20 (permalink)
Tom S Friend of Leo's Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,208 49 Photos	A machine like this is very appealing to me, in concept anyway. I love building, but let's be honest, there are plenty of woodworking jobs that are just tedious. For instance, radiusing a fretboard isn't really my idea of a fun afternoon. It's just boring work. Then there's stuff like inlay work which I'd love to do, but suck at. The main problem is that which Brent mentioned: I have a lot of ideas for necks and bodies. But to test them, you have to build them, which takes a lot of time. Some ideas won't work out in the end. That can mean a lot of time invested in scrap wood. Plus, my "shop" situation makes it difficult for me to get the amount of time I need for projects. It's a garage setup, and I have to pull the cars out, set everything up, yadda, yadda. And there is a fairly limited window on when I can work throughout the year too, because it's often too cold out there in the fall and winter and too hot in the summer. It's frustrating. So a machine like this could be a godsend, save me tons of time in trying out all different kinds of things. I'm really tempted from that point of view. On the other hand, this machine has been available for well over a year now (as either Craftsman or Carvewright brand, same thing). If you spend some time reading about it and checking out the user forums for it, you might start to get the impression that it's maybe still not 100% ready for prime time. There seem to be a number of issues, including: the thing not working correctly with all kinds of things that need to be "checked", breakdowns or part failures, fairly high maintenance (constant cleaning), slightly dodgy software with false error messages, carving is really noisy, carving is really slow, scanning things with the probe is even slower the whole shebang has a big learning curve. But some people seem to love it. Regardless, I'd love to try one. But for $1800, (more like $2400 if you get the probe and all the bits, which you'll probably want too) I don't think I'm willing to test the waters.

February 8th, 2008, 03:59 PM	#21 (permalink)
MarkAdam TDPRI Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Des Plaines, IL Posts: 45	It's been talked about before.... It's been talked about, last year.... http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-tech...ght=CompuCarve and http://www.tdpri.com/forum/telecaste...ght=CompuCarve and http://www.tdpri.com/forum/bad-dog-c...ght=CompuCarve and http://www.tdpri.com/forum/bad-dog-c...ght=CompuCarve

February 8th, 2008, 04:24 PM	#22 (permalink)
jwells393 Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Albuquerque, USA Age: 64 Posts: 11,698 101 Photos	This wouldn't work for carving out computer designs but if you have a guitar body or neck you want to copy here's a low tech alternative you could build yourself. I present to you ............. the Copy Carver. ...... ...... http://www.copycarver.com/ __________________ Jack's Disclaimer: When I say something.... always ask yourself ..... "What the hell does he know?" _ Guys - learn to disable the flash on your digital cameras.

February 8th, 2008, 05:10 PM	#23 (permalink)
Boubou Tele-Holic Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Montreal, Quebec Age: 48 Posts: 590	I have read a bit about this machine, I might work, but then again it might not. As someone mentionned the tolerance on the mcahine is not the same as an industrial one. I think it is more geared towards the woodworker who wants to replicate a carving, for lets say put on 3 drawer fronts, they do not have to be exactly the same ( they most likely wont). however to fit a neck precisely you might have a problem. Still thats a nice machine. I work wood with hand and power tools, and its much more satisfying to do it with hand tools.