8502 vs 0.047 cap?

[cort]

I’m fed up with that clicking Delta tone pot on my 8502 (American Ash Tele)
so I’ve decided to replace it with a regular 250K tone pot. I’m interesting
in taking the opportunity to replace the stock 0.022 uf cap with
a vintage 0.047 cap. What kind of tone change do I expect?
Should I do it or not? Please help, thanks!

[sha4096]

About the capacitor, expect less brightness with a higher cap value. Check this : http://www.guitarelectronics.zoovy.c...sicwiringfaqs/

"Larger capacitors will have lower cutoff frequency and sound darker in the bass setting because a wider range of frequencies is being reduced. Smaller capacitors will have a higher cutoff frequency and sound brighter in the bass setting because only the ultra high frequencies are cut."

By the way, a capacitor is quickly replaced, so you can switch back to your previous cap in a few minutes if it doesn't sound as expected.

[johnny guitar]

Cort, I think it will have a little bit of a '52 tele edge to it with that cap in there. I have used both and like both. (johnnyqb at fdp, buddy)

[riggergreg]

I prefer the .047

Gives a wider variance on the tone

[Brent Hutto]

I just installed a Nocaster set in my MiM Standard and left the stock whatever it is tone cap in place (.022uF I guess). Now I haven't got the guitar set up correctly yet but the tone control (the stock 250K pot) still seems to be able to roll it off all the way to mud before it gets to the end of its range. So if I switched to a .05uF cap wouldn't it just kill all my highs ever sooner as I start rolling it down? Or is it an effect where the in-between tone is different as you start backing it down from full-on?

[cort]

Thank you all for the replies, now that I will put the 0.047 on once I
receive it next week.

Johnny guitar, I will get back to you soon, we're not through yet!

Brent, I will report you the result after the mod.

Once again, thanks!

[bradpdx]

The 0.022mfd and 0.047mfd caps will sound identical with the tone control all the way up, because the cap is effectively isolated by the large 250kohm value of the pot.

As you turn the pot down, the 0.047 will have a greater effect on the treble than the 0.022 - the range of frequencies affected by the pot will be lower by one octave. With the tone control turned all the way down, the 0.047 will sound much darker than the 0.022

If your goal is to "tweak" the high end to suit taste while you play, you simply must try each one to see what works for you; either one will create a noticeable effect in the first 1/3 turn, but the 0.022 will affect only higher treble.

If you use the tone control for classic Tele "wah" effects, the 0.047 is a better choice and is the traditional value in old Telecasters.

I use 0.047 in my 52RI with VanZandt PUPs. I use the tone control all the time to adjust timbre and for "wah" effects.

[BroadMaster]

I have a penchant for the .033s.

[Tele Jr]

Cort,

I'm not using a no load pot with my MV's any more either, for whatever reason I hardly if ever used the no load position, I always liked it sort of right off the notch rather than full on in no load mode. Likewise with the TBX circuit on the Tele Plus the center dent there is also no load and I always seem to prefer it just off either side of the notch vs center dent position and rarely if ever use it in no load mode. Having the tone pot in play even ever so slightly seems to sweeten it up for me.

I rewired the CS/8502 Tele to strict 8502 specs using the stock 8502 wiring diagram including the standard cap and it's never sounded better. It came with what seemed to be some sort of a version of the so called 50's wiring used on old Les Pauls that brought out a brighter timbre, after the restoration to 8502 specs it was like honey I'm home all over again!

Just a thought if you are shopping for pots look for one with the same size and style of shaft because they come a couple of different ways, solid vs split shaft, etc.

I have thought of trying a slightly different cap in there too, let us know how it turns out if you try it, I would be interested in the effect it has on the brilliance and sharpness of the attack. I'm not sure of what kind of sound you are looking for but a brass bridge plate might also be something to look into...

[cort]

Tele Jr: I was trying a MIM standard Tele at store the other day and realized
how much I love the regular tone pot vs how much I hate the Delta no load!
I have ordered both CTS & genuine Fender 250K solid shaft pots so they should be correct ones, I also have one reg. genuine Fender 250K pot package in my drawer that I found it came with an Orange Drop cap, not 0.022 nor 0.047 but an unfamiliar value, don't know what it is for.

As far as for other mod thoughts, I am still fighting myself whether change
that neck pup to a body-mount type and get rid of that two unsightly screws
or not. I decide to hold the horse just for now since I realize that 8502 was
never made for a vintage model in the first place.

I will definitely report you all the 0.047 mod result after done, thank you all!

[Tele Jr]

Cort,

I would be more likely actually to first try to go with better grade of .022 cap but would also be very interested in trying out a .047 cap and taste testing the results with my fast finger picking style for maximum top end nuance in the picking attack. I've heard good things about RS Guitarworks and I'm thinking of trying out the Jensen paper and oil .022 vs .047's for tone and clarity with the MV's...

http://www.rsguitarworks.net/rsstore...hp?cPath=45_67

[cort]

Ok, just put 0.047 in, the result is a much broader tone adjustment due to
the higher cap value, the broader range also means a slower, tamer operation
for rolling off the treble, it has the same tone as 0.022 at 0 & 10 positions but
much more possibilities in between, so I guess you can’t go wrong with either cap.

[boris bubbanov]

This is a great discussion, thanks guys.

I'm assembling a couple more 4 way Tele control plates, and the one will be my third 250K taper potted one with the .047 mf cap. The other one is intended for a one piece walnut guitar, and will get the .1 cap.

But I will buy a few of these .033 mf caps as well, one for a mahogany Tele assembly I'm doing. Does anyone know if a value between .1 and .047 mf is available, and if so, where to find it? Also, I have some plans I'm considering calling for pico-farad caps, less than .001 mf. Does anyone have a place they like that carries these?

Much obliged,

[Brent Hutto]

Bub,

It may not be entirely elegant but you can parallel a second capacitor to increase the value. If you have a .05 and just tack a .01 across it the resulting value will be .06 and that's probably the easiest way to try some in-between values.

[bradpdx]

Originally Posted by Tele Jr

I've heard good things about RS Guitarworks and I'm thinking of trying out the Jensen paper and oil .022 vs .047's for tone and clarity with the MV's...

Seriously, fellows, the "quality" of the cap in this application is NOT going to matter one whit, and it will certainly make NO difference when the tone pot is all the way up. None. Nada. Nyet.

If you wish to convince yourself otherwise, then by all means spend money on boutique or vintage caps. The psychology of ownership is good at creating value were none exists.

Expensive caps (those other than your basic small value/small voltage ceramics) are attempting to solve problems that aren't here, such as maintaining consistent behavior over a wide range of DC offset voltages or maintaining linearity over a wide range of AC differences (e.g., when the reactance of the cap is used to create frequency dependent changes) when the voltages are high.

In a guitar tone circuit, the voltages (both DC and AC) are tiny and of little concern. Also, the tone circuit is of the "bleed off" variety - any non-linear behavior in the cap is substantially mitigated by the interposition of the tone pot between the pickup and the cap. And there WON'T BE any non-linear behavior at these signal levels.

Finally, what are we driving? Oh, that's right - guitar amps! Love 'em to death, but my darling old Fenders are not going to deliver anything less than 3% - 5% distortion at any volume level - they are not high fidelity devices. They are musical instruments.

Finally finally, there is a cable attached to your guitar. If it is a 20ft cable, then you are attaching a funky ~1000pf capacitor to your guitar ALL THE TIME. This will have more of an audible effect than any tone cap quality difference will ever make. An no, fancy cables don't really address that issue, either - only longer and shorter ones do.