Is it wrong to put a Fender logo on a partscaster? - Page 2

bluesjuke · December 25th, 2007, 07:20 AM

Only the ones with the Fender neck I'd say.

If I built a Tele or Strat I would love the look of a Fender logo on the headstock- been used to it for 44+ years.

The headstock would stay plain and unadorned though.
J.V. has got some custom necks on his Strats by the way and they are logo naked.

PeterUK · December 25th, 2007, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmybusk

To Peter UK, ...What if the guy playing live,plays like me?

Dunno? You any good?

Merry Christmas!

Peter

Flat357 · December 25th, 2007, 08:20 AM

Many guys like to see a Fender logo on their guitar .

They certainly don't make the best guitars , and they certainly don't offer any consistency within their own products .
The brand is no longer a gaurantee of quality , if indeed it ever was , but it does offer consolation to those who feel it is a necessity , and overall , it is a decent quality guitar .

Morally , it is wrong to use a fake logo , but legally , it depends on your location , as different countries have different views regarding patents etc .
I say if it's on , it's on , and as long as you don't resell it as a genuine Fender , then there are no legal issues on your part .

Take a real Fender , and remove the decal , and replace it with your own decal , and see what response you will get from both Fender and the TDPRI

Will it be more ... or less ?

At the same time , I don't see Fender paying non endorsed people to advertise their product either , so personally , I would be happier to see logos placed on the back of the headstock .
Then if we wish to give them a plug , we can turn our backs on the audience

Manufacturers charge high prices for their name in all situations of life , and many will buy it simply for the name . Many companies will take advantage of human egos and offer them fakes .
This saves people money , but shows us that a large majority are only concerned with what others think , and care less about the item itself .

Give a kid in Africa a pair of jeans , or a watch , or even a guitar , and see if he cares what name is on it

stevieboy · December 25th, 2007, 10:41 AM

I wouldn't sell a partscaster with a Fender logo on ebay or other place where I advertised it. I wouldn't worry about buying one. I wouldn't put a Fender logo on a partscaster, wouldn't occur to me to even want to.

If a Fender neck has a decal I wouldn't think twice about putting it on a different Fender body or any other body. It's a Fender neck. If you change the pickups, or bridge or tuners, on a Fender guitar, do you have to take the logo off? It wouldn't occur to me to take it off. It also wouldn't occur to me to take a Squier logo off a neck if I had one. I actually have a Fender partscaster that I bought used from a store, a 1990 MIJ paisley body with a neck from an Albert Collins tele of the same year. I'd be an idiot to take the logo off the that, I think I could sell the neck for more than I paid for the whole guitar.

blindside · December 25th, 2007, 11:08 AM

Well, If I were building a partscaster (which I am) I would not WANT the Fender logo on it because it simply is not a Fender.

Mine is going to have Callaham parts and Fralin pickups and a Warmoth exotic neck, so really, it won't look or sound like a Fender.

I'd rather make my own logo or leave the headstock blank.

Plus, what serial number do you use? What country? Hell, where do you even find a "spare" logo.

Trimmed&Burnin · December 25th, 2007, 11:19 AM

If somebody built a guitar and put my logo on it I'd be pretty upset, no matter how good a job the builder and or parts assembler did. We seem to be living in a world where we have to identify with brand names and logos,,, we want to the "Mojo" of the brand without buying the brand but if it's fake Mojo is it really Mojo??I dont get it.
If it's not a Fender or a Gibson or a Rice or a Kirn or National or a Trimmed And Burnin guitar dont put thier logo on it. I see it as a matter of integrity and respect. It either IS or it IS NOT a Fender, this has nothing to do with what you think the meaning of IS is.

giantslayer · December 25th, 2007, 11:24 AM

I think people have been bringing up good points that it's not quite as black-and-white as "if it was manufactured by Fender, it can have the logo." Where is the line?

Big Mike Simpson · December 25th, 2007, 03:55 PM

jsntg · December 25th, 2007, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trimmed&Burnin

... if it's fake Mojo is it really Mojo??

Well said. And my feeling when it comes to 'relic-ed' musical instruments, 'distressed' cowboy hats, cultured styrofoam building components and other 'lived-in/on/around (choose your preposition) consumer goods. It's well...a lie.

Hugh

Zebulon Bluze · December 25th, 2007, 09:04 PM

It's not right to put a Fender logo on any guitar that isn't a Fender. Making, selling or possesing a fake Fender logo is morally wrong. I think it's intersesting that the sellers of Fender licensed necks don't slap a Fender decal on the headstock - it must be because they're not allowed to. If you put that logo on your partscaster eventually somebody's going to buy a fake Fender.

I think I heard of someone selling a Fender logo partscaster on ebay, representing it as a partscaster, and having the puchaser demand a refund from Paypal. Supposedly Paypal stiffed the seller and destroyed the guitar.

newtwanger · December 25th, 2007, 09:40 PM

I used to modify performance cars for a living.
Ferrari Daytona Replica = Ferrari badges, no Ferrari parts.
Shelby Cobra replica = Shelby Cobra badges, no
shelby parts.

My Fender '53 Esquire Replica (starting to build it) = All Fender USA hardware, USACG wood, Fender Esquire headstock logo.

It's a tribute to the original, a "Replica" (in my case). It would be foolish to me to put anything else on the headstock IMHO.

red57strat · December 25th, 2007, 10:14 PM

My USACG T-Style proudly wears the USACG logo in epoxy.
Anything else would not only be incorrect, it wouldn't do the guitar justice.

jwells393 · December 25th, 2007, 11:31 PM

Quote:

I think I heard of someone selling a Fender logo partscaster on ebay, representing it as a partscaster, and having the puchaser demand a refund from Paypal. Supposedly Paypal stiffed the seller and destroyed the guitar.

Interesting story but not true. The guitar was not destroyed. The guitar (built by a TDPRI member) was returned to the seller who sold it to another TDPRI member.

tcadam · December 26th, 2007, 06:19 AM

A number of folks have posted that the Fender logo would be legal as long as the guitar isn't represented as a Fender at a subsequent sale. Does anyone know if this is actually true (assume the U.S.)? It would seem to me that trademark laws are infringed the moment the decal is applied no matter what the future use of the instrument is. What if you were playing the guitar at a gig attended by a Fender employee who recognized it as a non-Fender? I would think they would be able to take some action against you.

I don't know if my interpretation is correct and I would be curious if anyone has some actual legal experience in this area.

TC

fierce_carrot · December 26th, 2007, 06:37 AM

If you take the time, effort and care to build a guitar, why in the $%^& would you want to put another person's name on it?

Chances are at some point, these fake fenders are going to be sold and you know damn well they are going to be represented as Fenders somewhere down the line.

It's like those who build clones of other amps, especially Marshalls and then put Marshall logo's on them, these are clearly being represented as being Marshalls. On my Ceriatone Trainwreck, the faceplate logo says "trainwreck" on it but the head and cabinet logo's are clearly mine.

odiemann · December 26th, 2007, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Chances are at some point, these fake fenders are going to be sold and you know damn well they are going to be represented as Fenders somewhere down the line.

And they will join the ranks of the hundreds or thousands of other fakes that are now in the vintage market.

Trademark protection extends to a product that is intended for sale and profit that would help a manufacturer clearly demonstrate uniqueness of a product from all other similar ones on the market.

TDPRI · December 26th, 2007, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcadam

...the Fender logo would be legal as long as the guitar isn't represented as a Fender at a subsequent sale. Does anyone know if this is actually true (assume the U.S.)? It would seem to me that trademark laws are infringed the moment the decal is applied no matter what the future use of the instrument is.

There are two things here. The decal is the violation of trademark laws and the headstock shape is a separate violation of trademark law. Both are trademarked individually.

When the decal was made and again when the decal was sold. That is the violation of trademark law. It doesn't have to be put on a guitar. Likewise, when the neck is made with the Fender trademarked headstock shape that too is a violation of trademark law.

Putting them both together is further violation of both trademarks. When done intentionally to create a fake that is sold as a Fender Telecaster it's now a crime of fraud as well.

TDPRI · December 26th, 2007, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fierce_carrot

On my Ceriatone Trainwreck, the faceplate logo says "trainwreck" on it but the head and cabinet logo's are clearly mine.

"Trainwreck" is a registered trademark owned by Ken Fischer and his estate. Using it on an amplifier with or without your logos is a violation of trademark law:

Word Mark TRAINWRECK
Goods and Services IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: musical instrument amplifiers, musical instrument speakers, power attenuators and electronic tremolo apparatus. FIRST USE: 19820311. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19830101
Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code 24.09.07 - Advertising, banners; Banners
Serial Number 75432918
Filing Date February 12, 1998
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition March 9, 1999
Registration Number 2249277
Registration Date June 1, 1999
Owner (REGISTRANT) Fischer, Kenneth INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 59 Preston Road Colonia NEW JERSEY 070672420
Attorney of Record KENNETH FISCHER
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 8 (6-YR).
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

odiemann · December 26th, 2007, 08:36 AM

Quote:

There are two things here. The decal is the violation of trademark laws and the headstock shape is a separate violation of trademark law. Both are trademarked individually.

In addition, we have jumped over an important point. ANY similar or possibly confusing symbol CAN be a violation of trademark law. Just because you leave a "c" out of Gucci, for example, that does not leave you in the clear. Examples include a similar type face (font), symbol, or even name (yes name, I bet you will never try to market anything -even a band_ as Bud) CAN constitute a trademark violation. Reversing the order of the letters CAN do the same, if the intention is there to confuse.

That means that something totally legal for one person becomes clearly illegal for another. The example I would use here is the harmless "Ferden" decal many use. Using that for personal amusement is totally legal. Let us say the owner of such a guitar died. His guitars were then sold at an estate sale. The buyer of the guitar knows it is not a Fender, but then attempts to resell it and does not CLEARLY point out that it is NOT a Fender, but a Ferden, has now crossed the legal line.

Could you beat the rap, maybe with a good attorney and a whole lot more money than you would have spent on a Custom Shop Fender.

musicalmartin · December 26th, 2007, 08:39 AM

A guy I know put some proper Ferrari badges on his grey import Mitsubishi 300 Japanese GT , after spraying it Ferrari red with gold wheels It cost him some serious money to get all the correct Pininfarina badges ,logos and wheel centres etc .Most people thought it was a Ferrari as the badges fooled many .I owned a Ferrari Rosso Corsa red Fiat 124 Sports coupe a while ago .it looked good with Cromadora wheels etc .I put a couple of Ferrari shields on the front wings and again many assumed it was a Ferrari.i didnt keep them on that long as Ferrari's are likely to get damaged by vandals .At least the great Ferrari engine designer Vitorrio Jano also designed the little twin cam 124 engine as well.Fantastic little car but built from old spaghetti tins and rotted very quickly in everyday use .I now have a bright Metallic Green Golf that I call Kermit
Frankly I would probably put a Fender logo on the headstock as it is to all intents and purposes a Fender, just probably better made.I would certainly tell any ebay buyer it was not an actual Fender and one should always ask for any guitars serial number before buying to check it out .

odiemann · December 26th, 2007, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Frankly I would probably put a Fender logo on the headstock as it is to all intents and purposes a Fender, just probably better made.I would certainly tell any ebay buyer it was not an actual Fender and one should always ask for any guitars serial number before buying to check it out .

Problem is in the US you could be possibly held responsible in the future, if the person you sold it to attempted to defraud someone and then lied about the circumstances under which you had sold it. Don't know about the UK. It can be better, and many partscasters are definetly better than off the shelf Fenders, but that is no reasoning when the courts call.

rhomco · December 26th, 2007, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwells393

Interesting story but not true. The guitar was not destroyed. The guitar (built by a TDPRI member) was returned to the seller who sold it to another TDPRI member.

The story was true when originally posted and it took a small claims court lawsuit to get it back from PP (after it was certified as "destroyed" by the way).

cband7 · December 26th, 2007, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlie frey

The guy was honest, and that's cool.
As long as everybody is honest every time the guitar gets sold....
Well...that's the hitch.

My favorite saying, but I thought it was 'illigitimi non carborundum'. I failed Latin I and never took it again. A rose by any other name, guess!!

December 25th, 2007, 10:41 AM	#44 (permalink)
stevieboy Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: the valley Posts: 2,272 6 Photos	I wouldn't sell a partscaster with a Fender logo on ebay or other place where I advertised it. I wouldn't worry about buying one. I wouldn't put a Fender logo on a partscaster, wouldn't occur to me to even want to. If a Fender neck has a decal I wouldn't think twice about putting it on a different Fender body or any other body. It's a Fender neck. If you change the pickups, or bridge or tuners, on a Fender guitar, do you have to take the logo off? It wouldn't occur to me to take it off. It also wouldn't occur to me to take a Squier logo off a neck if I had one. I actually have a Fender partscaster that I bought used from a store, a 1990 MIJ paisley body with a neck from an Albert Collins tele of the same year. I'd be an idiot to take the logo off the that, I think I could sell the neck for more than I paid for the whole guitar. __________________ "One of the best bands ever. These guys were such perfectionist"--Youtube user comment

December 25th, 2007, 11:19 AM	#46 (permalink)
Trimmed&Burnin Tele-Holic Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bellingham Wa Age: 54 Posts: 808	If somebody built a guitar and put my logo on it I'd be pretty upset, no matter how good a job the builder and or parts assembler did. We seem to be living in a world where we have to identify with brand names and logos,,, we want to the "Mojo" of the brand without buying the brand but if it's fake Mojo is it really Mojo??I dont get it. If it's not a Fender or a Gibson or a Rice or a Kirn or National or a Trimmed And Burnin guitar dont put thier logo on it. I see it as a matter of integrity and respect. It either IS or it IS NOT a Fender, this has nothing to do with what you think the meaning of IS is. __________________ Keep your lamp Trimmed And Burnin Shannon,

December 25th, 2007, 03:55 PM	#48 (permalink)
Big Mike Simpson Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Gilbert, AZ (PHX) Age: 52 Posts: 1,395 59 Photos	__________________ Big Mike http://www.myspace.com/bigmikesimpson

December 25th, 2007, 09:04 PM	#50 (permalink)
Zebulon Bluze Tele-Meister Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Greater Chicagoland Metropolitan Area Age: 57 Posts: 119	It's not right to put a Fender logo on any guitar that isn't a Fender. Making, selling or possesing a fake Fender logo is morally wrong. I think it's intersesting that the sellers of Fender licensed necks don't slap a Fender decal on the headstock - it must be because they're not allowed to. If you put that logo on your partscaster eventually somebody's going to buy a fake Fender. I think I heard of someone selling a Fender logo partscaster on ebay, representing it as a partscaster, and having the puchaser demand a refund from Paypal. Supposedly Paypal stiffed the seller and destroyed the guitar. __________________ If you see the light at the end of the tunnel it's probably a train coming directly at you.

December 25th, 2007, 10:14 PM	#52 (permalink)
red57strat Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,112	My USACG T-Style proudly wears the USACG logo in epoxy. Anything else would not only be incorrect, it wouldn't do the guitar justice. __________________ Don

December 25th, 2007, 07:20 AM	#41 (permalink)
bluesjuke Tele-Holic Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Bluesland, Texas Age: 52 Posts: 524	Only the ones with the Fender neck I'd say. If I built a Tele or Strat I would love the look of a Fender logo on the headstock- been used to it for 44+ years. The headstock would stay plain and unadorned though. J.V. has got some custom necks on his Strats by the way and they are logo naked.

December 25th, 2007, 08:20 AM	#43 (permalink)
Flat357 Friend of Leo's Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Cheshire Age: 40 Posts: 2,850	Many guys like to see a Fender logo on their guitar . They certainly don't make the best guitars , and they certainly don't offer any consistency within their own products . The brand is no longer a gaurantee of quality , if indeed it ever was , but it does offer consolation to those who feel it is a necessity , and overall , it is a decent quality guitar . Morally , it is wrong to use a fake logo , but legally , it depends on your location , as different countries have different views regarding patents etc . I say if it's on , it's on , and as long as you don't resell it as a genuine Fender , then there are no legal issues on your part . Take a real Fender , and remove the decal , and replace it with your own decal , and see what response you will get from both Fender and the TDPRI Will it be more ... or less ? At the same time , I don't see Fender paying non endorsed people to advertise their product either , so personally , I would be happier to see logos placed on the back of the headstock . Then if we wish to give them a plug , we can turn our backs on the audience Manufacturers charge high prices for their name in all situations of life , and many will buy it simply for the name . Many companies will take advantage of human egos and offer them fakes . This saves people money , but shows us that a large majority are only concerned with what others think , and care less about the item itself . Give a kid in Africa a pair of jeans , or a watch , or even a guitar , and see if he cares what name is on it

December 25th, 2007, 11:08 AM	#45 (permalink)
blindside TDPRI Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Richmond, VA Age: 25 Posts: 22	Well, If I were building a partscaster (which I am) I would not WANT the Fender logo on it because it simply is not a Fender. Mine is going to have Callaham parts and Fralin pickups and a Warmoth exotic neck, so really, it won't look or sound like a Fender. I'd rather make my own logo or leave the headstock blank. Plus, what serial number do you use? What country? Hell, where do you even find a "spare" logo.

December 25th, 2007, 11:24 AM	#47 (permalink)
giantslayer Tele-Meister Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Age: 22 Posts: 248	I think people have been bringing up good points that it's not quite as black-and-white as "if it was manufactured by Fender, it can have the logo." Where is the line?

December 25th, 2007, 09:40 PM	#51 (permalink)
newtwanger Tele-Holic Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Quebec, Canada Posts: 714 5 Photos	I used to modify performance cars for a living. Ferrari Daytona Replica = Ferrari badges, no Ferrari parts. Shelby Cobra replica = Shelby Cobra badges, no shelby parts. My Fender '53 Esquire Replica (starting to build it) = All Fender USA hardware, USACG wood, Fender Esquire headstock logo. It's a tribute to the original, a "Replica" (in my case). It would be foolish to me to put anything else on the headstock IMHO.

December 26th, 2007, 06:19 AM	#54 (permalink)
tcadam Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Delaware Age: 41 Posts: 319 1 Photos	A number of folks have posted that the Fender logo would be legal as long as the guitar isn't represented as a Fender at a subsequent sale. Does anyone know if this is actually true (assume the U.S.)? It would seem to me that trademark laws are infringed the moment the decal is applied no matter what the future use of the instrument is. What if you were playing the guitar at a gig attended by a Fender employee who recognized it as a non-Fender? I would think they would be able to take some action against you. I don't know if my interpretation is correct and I would be curious if anyone has some actual legal experience in this area. TC

December 26th, 2007, 06:37 AM	#55 (permalink)
fierce_carrot Tele-Holic Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Iowa Age: 52 Posts: 985	If you take the time, effort and care to build a guitar, why in the $%^& would you want to put another person's name on it? Chances are at some point, these fake fenders are going to be sold and you know damn well they are going to be represented as Fenders somewhere down the line. It's like those who build clones of other amps, especially Marshalls and then put Marshall logo's on them, these are clearly being represented as being Marshalls. On my Ceriatone Trainwreck, the faceplate logo says "trainwreck" on it but the head and cabinet logo's are clearly mine.

December 26th, 2007, 08:39 AM	#60 (permalink)
musicalmartin Tele-Meister Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: UK Age: 60 Posts: 449	A guy I know put some proper Ferrari badges on his grey import Mitsubishi 300 Japanese GT , after spraying it Ferrari red with gold wheels It cost him some serious money to get all the correct Pininfarina badges ,logos and wheel centres etc .Most people thought it was a Ferrari as the badges fooled many .I owned a Ferrari Rosso Corsa red Fiat 124 Sports coupe a while ago .it looked good with Cromadora wheels etc .I put a couple of Ferrari shields on the front wings and again many assumed it was a Ferrari.i didnt keep them on that long as Ferrari's are likely to get damaged by vandals .At least the great Ferrari engine designer Vitorrio Jano also designed the little twin cam 124 engine as well.Fantastic little car but built from old spaghetti tins and rotted very quickly in everyday use .I now have a bright Metallic Green Golf that I call Kermit Frankly I would probably put a Fender logo on the headstock as it is to all intents and purposes a Fender, just probably better made.I would certainly tell any ebay buyer it was not an actual Fender and one should always ask for any guitars serial number before buying to check it out .