Re-finishing Question

tcadam · December 14th, 2007, 06:25 AM

I'm in the middle of re-finishing my Squier Tele with Krylon followed by Deft clear coat. It looks like I'm about done the color coat of Krylon and was wondering what the final sanding should be before starting on the clear coat. Does it matter if the gloss from the color coat is removed?

I've had this guitar in pieces on my workbench for two months and would like to get it back in action soon.

jwells393 · December 14th, 2007, 07:26 AM

I don't sand the Krylon. If I see some dust nibs or pet hair I will sand them out with a little piece of 400 sandpaper wrapped around my index finger but I don't sand the whole color coat. These sanding scratches will disappear with the clear.

Ippon · December 14th, 2007, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwells393

I don't sand the Krylon. If I see some dust nibs or pet hair I will sand them out with a little piece of 400 sandpaper wrapped around my index finger but I don't sand the whole color coat. These sanding scratches will disappear with the clear.

One of the lessons I've learned, through various tutorials, consultations with pros, and trials and errors, is that when correcting finishing mistakes such as drips, hills through overspray, etc., is to very lightly wetsand them with the high grit (1000 to 2000) that you've soaked overnight using a flat sanding board.

What I've been told is that the overnight soaking eliminates the risk of the creased paper backing creating a potential gouge on the finish. Perhaps it's over-conservative but it works.

It has also been highly recommended to keep the finishing layers consistently within the same "family"; meaning, if using Acrylic (such as Krylon or Duplicolor or Rustoleum), use Acrylic sander/sealer/primer, colorcoat, and clearcoat. The Deft I've use and what you're planning to use is Nitro. I haven't tried mixing Acrylic and Nitro. But then, it might work. With the plasticizers in Nitro, I imagine it'll work, but I don't have the chops to understand the Chemistry, yet. :)

Good Luck!

Momotoro · December 14th, 2007, 08:11 AM

Kick to Tech Please

BroadMaster · December 14th, 2007, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Momotoro

Kick to Tech Please

?????? There's a lot of finishing discussion done in this forum. I reckon PAUL will move it if He sees fit.

Momotoro · December 14th, 2007, 09:36 AM

Quote:

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momotoro View Post
Kick to Tech Please
?????? There's a lot of finishing discussion done in this forum. I reckon PAUL will move it if He sees fit.
__________________

Thanks for your help. Some self-policing is the hallmark of a thinking group of people.

It does not belong here. Too many real "Telecaster" posts get pushed down when people don't use the well thought out forum categories we have.

jwells393 · December 14th, 2007, 10:09 AM

Momotoro............ lighten up man. As Broadmaster has stated, a lot of finishing and other technical discussions take place here. What exactly would you have us discuss here?

Vizcaster · December 14th, 2007, 10:23 AM

Ok back to topic (I'll defer to the moderator's judgment on where this belongs). You can't color sand a metallic finish (for instance autobody metal flake grey - ask me how I know that). One school of thought for other colors is to level the finish to eliminate orangepeel before topcoating with clear, and that has to be done with 400, 600, 600 grit paper (depending on the material you might start higher or leave off earlier - Krylon rattle can users should comment here). This process would actually knock the gloss off, to answer your question, and is not a problem because the topcoats will give back the gloss. It also provides a micro scratch pattern that would give the new finish something to hold onto, which is only necessary if you have a fully cured undercoat or a different type of topcoat. In that case you're adding mechanical adhesion (into the nooks and crannies of the sanded surface) along with chemical adhesion (from the new finish 'burning in' to the compatible old finish). The other method (which seems to be what the TV hotrod guys do) is to simply but a crapload of clearcoat on there and cut it back dramatically by wetsanding after it's cured, then buffing it out to get a shine. I like to do a little of both.

And I have reverted back to dry sanding instead of wet - although you have issues on what to do with the dust and the paper can load up, dry sanding makes it much much easier to see what you're doing so the paper is less likely to burn through an edge (you can also guess how I figured that one out).

I know this is the really boring answer, but you should try a test panel before completing the real thing. Not only will it give you predictable results and help avoid disaster by detecting incompatibilities, it's also good practice so you've got just that bit more bit of experience before tackling the workpiece. Best of luck - there's nothing like hearing somebody say, "You finished that yourself? How did you get it to shine?"

tcadam · December 14th, 2007, 10:46 AM

Folks, thanks for the helpful info.

Viz (or anybody else), what is the procedure for wet-sanding anyway and what are the advantages? I've never done it before.

Thanks,
TC

Vizcaster · December 14th, 2007, 11:53 AM

First off, you need to know if the product is supposed to be wet sanded. I found out the hard way that the water based lacquers I use are not supposed to be wet sanded until after they fully cure, which means you shouldn't do it betwen coats.

Assuming your product is safe to do it on, you use a lubricant like water (maybe with a drop of dish soap, again assuming that doesn't contaminate the finish or create problems for the next coat). You'll need wet-dry sandpaper that doesn't fall apart when wet, and that also means a rubber sanding block instead of wood). You can probably start with 600 (400 would only be necessary if you need to cut back a bad defect, but that can also be done with a woodworker's cabinet scraper or a utility knife blade), and go to 800 and 1,000 if it's the final coat and you're going to be buffing. Dip the sanding block in water and start sanding, you'll start to get a slurry of finish. Wipe it away with a rag or sponge to keep things neat. You'll see little craters and divots of grain or just plain areas that are unevenly coated with finish. The more you sand and get the finish level, these shiny spots will begin to disappear. Then you know the finish is mirror smooth and can be buffed out without looking like a waxed tangerine (ever see an $85 paint job on a car?). The main advantage of wet sanding is that you don't have fine white powder everywhere. The secondary advantage is that the paper will not clog as quickly (not that it doesn't happen). Wet sanding really has nothing to do with making the cutting action more gentle or finer -that's only a function of the paper grit. The main problem is that you cannot see the scratch pattern and you won't know whether you've sanded enough or too much - unless you're confident enough to do it blind, by feel and touch (actually run your hand over the surface, but again it's harder to tell when it's slippery wet).

I have abandoned wet sanding for the most part, and have found that real good quality papers make a huge difference. Either Klingspoor (available online directly and from woodworking catalogs) or the 3M gold (from Stew Mac sold by the sheet) papers are excellent for dry sanding. There's also something called stearated abrasive where a soapy lubricant is added to the paper so that it does not clog when sanding finishes, and actually most sandpapers have some degree of stearate in them. I don't use these because they can be a problem with water based topcoats, but they are helpful when you're doing tradional solvent based finishes.

Bob Flexner wrote a good book on wood finishing that takes you through the steps; he also updates it now and again to explain the various types of finish technology that has come along and demystifies the whole thing. I believe it's a Taunton Press book. Once you've digested that book, you'll notice that you've already read most of the tips that show up in the finishing columns of the woodworking magazines.

Oh, and you have to share with us what color Krylon you chose, because you'll get some people weepy if it's Surf Green...

jwells393 · December 14th, 2007, 12:08 PM

I would add this if you do wet sanding. Try to refrain from getting water in any screw holes or other holes. If you do it can result in the wood swelling and messing up your finish. Some people use mineral spirits instead of water as a lubricant. It supposedly doesn't result in wood swelling. I haven't tried it.

BlackieStratMan · December 14th, 2007, 03:56 PM

a neck i touched up is that same real yellow color. is that the rightcolor i used fender re ranch neck amber what is that one,.

tcadam · December 14th, 2007, 04:10 PM

Vizcaster, thanks so much for the comprehensive response. You've increased my knowledge on the subject a ton. It doesn't sound like the view will be worth the climb as far as wet sanding goes on this project. It's a twenty year old Squier and I don't have the patience or ability to make it look new again. It already looks a lot better since I had stripped the original finish off in the late '80's and just slapped some stain on it. It looked as bad as you might think.

BTW, nothing fancy on this body-- plain gloss black with a white pickguard. Simple. Classic.

TC

jwells393 · December 14th, 2007, 05:04 PM

Quote:

nothing fancy on this body-- plain gloss black with a white pickguard. Simple. Classic

On man ............. there are so many great colors in the Krylon and Dupli-Color palettes. Black with white guard is so common.

tcadam · December 14th, 2007, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwells393

On man ............. there are so many great colors in the Krylon and Dupli-Color palettes. Black with white guard is so common.

You should see how I dress. You want common?

boris bubbanov · December 14th, 2007, 06:40 PM

One thing that does seem to show through the clear topcoat is what I call a 'quark'.

Whether part of the original bare wood covered in clear or on the surface of the color coat, a piece of debris that has been riding around stuck on the front of your sanding pad ( on a reciprocal sander ) will jump out at you much later. Admittedly a bigger problem on the surface of the wood, as a color coat with a common solvent to the top coat will tend to melt or marry together and may obscure it.

Sanding can cause more grief than benefit, unless you have time to set the work aside a long long time. Modern 'lacquers' skin up fast, whilst staying gooey and rubbery underneath; once you penetrate the skin surface with the sanding paper, the gummy stuff underneath can be freed and become a pile of 'marbles'. Note all the isobutyl alcohol in the contents lists of these products. Makes me wanna get a compressor and blend my own lacquer to get that harder finish.

Bubbanov

reddogbass · December 14th, 2007, 06:53 PM

BLACK will show imperfections, such as orange peel, more so than any other color. Do yourself a favor and giver it a token sanding at least, to knock most of the high spots off.

I always sand the color coats before clear topcoats. One reason is for some "tooth" and the other is to smooth (make flat- the finish, not the gloss) the color coat. If you don't, and you have some orange peel, or other imperfections, the humps, bumps, craters, and orange peel just get worse the more paint is put on. It also makes blocking/color sanding the clear much easier and allows for a thinner film thickness- which adds to durability.

I too like the dry sanding because I'm impatient. Yeah there's the dust issue, but an air source, a shop-vac, and a tack cloth take care of it. And, a little (very little mind you) dust is no big deal with clearcoat lacquer. The problem with wet sanding is I don't have the patience to either let the surface dry sufficiently, or clean out the holes, etc. This will almost always result in blushing with the topcoats.

December 14th, 2007, 06:25 AM	#1 (permalink)
tcadam Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Delaware Age: 41 Posts: 276 1 Photos	Re-finishing Question I'm in the middle of re-finishing my Squier Tele with Krylon followed by Deft clear coat. It looks like I'm about done the color coat of Krylon and was wondering what the final sanding should be before starting on the clear coat. Does it matter if the gloss from the color coat is removed? I've had this guitar in pieces on my workbench for two months and would like to get it back in action soon.

December 14th, 2007, 07:26 AM	#2 (permalink)
jwells393 Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Albuquerque, USA Age: 64 Posts: 11,121 101 Photos	I don't sand the Krylon. If I see some dust nibs or pet hair I will sand them out with a little piece of 400 sandpaper wrapped around my index finger but I don't sand the whole color coat. These sanding scratches will disappear with the clear. __________________ Jack's Disclaimer: When I say something.... always ask yourself ..... "What the hell does he know?" _ Guys - learn to disable the flash on your digital cameras.

December 14th, 2007, 10:09 AM	#7 (permalink)
jwells393 Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Albuquerque, USA Age: 64 Posts: 11,121 101 Photos	Momotoro............ lighten up man. As Broadmaster has stated, a lot of finishing and other technical discussions take place here. What exactly would you have us discuss here? __________________ Jack's Disclaimer: When I say something.... always ask yourself ..... "What the hell does he know?" _ Guys - learn to disable the flash on your digital cameras.

December 14th, 2007, 10:23 AM	#8 (permalink)
Vizcaster Tele-Holic Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Glen Head, NY Posts: 560	Ok back to topic (I'll defer to the moderator's judgment on where this belongs). You can't color sand a metallic finish (for instance autobody metal flake grey - ask me how I know that). One school of thought for other colors is to level the finish to eliminate orangepeel before topcoating with clear, and that has to be done with 400, 600, 600 grit paper (depending on the material you might start higher or leave off earlier - Krylon rattle can users should comment here). This process would actually knock the gloss off, to answer your question, and is not a problem because the topcoats will give back the gloss. It also provides a micro scratch pattern that would give the new finish something to hold onto, which is only necessary if you have a fully cured undercoat or a different type of topcoat. In that case you're adding mechanical adhesion (into the nooks and crannies of the sanded surface) along with chemical adhesion (from the new finish 'burning in' to the compatible old finish). The other method (which seems to be what the TV hotrod guys do) is to simply but a crapload of clearcoat on there and cut it back dramatically by wetsanding after it's cured, then buffing it out to get a shine. I like to do a little of both. And I have reverted back to dry sanding instead of wet - although you have issues on what to do with the dust and the paper can load up, dry sanding makes it much much easier to see what you're doing so the paper is less likely to burn through an edge (you can also guess how I figured that one out). I know this is the really boring answer, but you should try a test panel before completing the real thing. Not only will it give you predictable results and help avoid disaster by detecting incompatibilities, it's also good practice so you've got just that bit more bit of experience before tackling the workpiece. Best of luck - there's nothing like hearing somebody say, "You finished that yourself? How did you get it to shine?" __________________ "Why don't you just make 10 louder, and make 10 be the top number, and make that a little louder?"

December 14th, 2007, 11:53 AM	#10 (permalink)
Vizcaster Tele-Holic Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Glen Head, NY Posts: 560	First off, you need to know if the product is supposed to be wet sanded. I found out the hard way that the water based lacquers I use are not supposed to be wet sanded until after they fully cure, which means you shouldn't do it betwen coats. Assuming your product is safe to do it on, you use a lubricant like water (maybe with a drop of dish soap, again assuming that doesn't contaminate the finish or create problems for the next coat). You'll need wet-dry sandpaper that doesn't fall apart when wet, and that also means a rubber sanding block instead of wood). You can probably start with 600 (400 would only be necessary if you need to cut back a bad defect, but that can also be done with a woodworker's cabinet scraper or a utility knife blade), and go to 800 and 1,000 if it's the final coat and you're going to be buffing. Dip the sanding block in water and start sanding, you'll start to get a slurry of finish. Wipe it away with a rag or sponge to keep things neat. You'll see little craters and divots of grain or just plain areas that are unevenly coated with finish. The more you sand and get the finish level, these shiny spots will begin to disappear. Then you know the finish is mirror smooth and can be buffed out without looking like a waxed tangerine (ever see an $85 paint job on a car?). The main advantage of wet sanding is that you don't have fine white powder everywhere. The secondary advantage is that the paper will not clog as quickly (not that it doesn't happen). Wet sanding really has nothing to do with making the cutting action more gentle or finer -that's only a function of the paper grit. The main problem is that you cannot see the scratch pattern and you won't know whether you've sanded enough or too much - unless you're confident enough to do it blind, by feel and touch (actually run your hand over the surface, but again it's harder to tell when it's slippery wet). I have abandoned wet sanding for the most part, and have found that real good quality papers make a huge difference. Either Klingspoor (available online directly and from woodworking catalogs) or the 3M gold (from Stew Mac sold by the sheet) papers are excellent for dry sanding. There's also something called stearated abrasive where a soapy lubricant is added to the paper so that it does not clog when sanding finishes, and actually most sandpapers have some degree of stearate in them. I don't use these because they can be a problem with water based topcoats, but they are helpful when you're doing tradional solvent based finishes. Bob Flexner wrote a good book on wood finishing that takes you through the steps; he also updates it now and again to explain the various types of finish technology that has come along and demystifies the whole thing. I believe it's a Taunton Press book. Once you've digested that book, you'll notice that you've already read most of the tips that show up in the finishing columns of the woodworking magazines. Oh, and you have to share with us what color Krylon you chose, because you'll get some people weepy if it's Surf Green... __________________ "Why don't you just make 10 louder, and make 10 be the top number, and make that a little louder?"

December 14th, 2007, 08:11 AM	#4 (permalink)
Momotoro Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: germantown, tn Age: 56 Posts: 398	Kick to Tech Please

December 14th, 2007, 10:46 AM	#9 (permalink)
tcadam Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Delaware Age: 41 Posts: 276 1 Photos	Folks, thanks for the helpful info. Viz (or anybody else), what is the procedure for wet-sanding anyway and what are the advantages? I've never done it before. Thanks, TC

December 14th, 2007, 12:08 PM	#11 (permalink)
jwells393 Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Albuquerque, USA Age: 64 Posts: 11,121 101 Photos	I would add this if you do wet sanding. Try to refrain from getting water in any screw holes or other holes. If you do it can result in the wood swelling and messing up your finish. Some people use mineral spirits instead of water as a lubricant. It supposedly doesn't result in wood swelling. I haven't tried it. __________________ Jack's Disclaimer: When I say something.... always ask yourself ..... "What the hell does he know?" _ Guys - learn to disable the flash on your digital cameras.

December 14th, 2007, 03:56 PM	#12 (permalink)
BlackieStratMan TDPRI Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 69	a neck i touched up is that same real yellow color. is that the rightcolor i used fender re ranch neck amber what is that one,.

December 14th, 2007, 04:10 PM	#13 (permalink)
tcadam Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Delaware Age: 41 Posts: 276 1 Photos	Vizcaster, thanks so much for the comprehensive response. You've increased my knowledge on the subject a ton. It doesn't sound like the view will be worth the climb as far as wet sanding goes on this project. It's a twenty year old Squier and I don't have the patience or ability to make it look new again. It already looks a lot better since I had stripped the original finish off in the late '80's and just slapped some stain on it. It looked as bad as you might think. BTW, nothing fancy on this body-- plain gloss black with a white pickguard. Simple. Classic. TC

December 14th, 2007, 06:40 PM	#16 (permalink)
boris bubbanov Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: New Orleans, LA + in the past Posts: 6,397	One thing that does seem to show through the clear topcoat is what I call a 'quark'. Whether part of the original bare wood covered in clear or on the surface of the color coat, a piece of debris that has been riding around stuck on the front of your sanding pad ( on a reciprocal sander ) will jump out at you much later. Admittedly a bigger problem on the surface of the wood, as a color coat with a common solvent to the top coat will tend to melt or marry together and may obscure it. Sanding can cause more grief than benefit, unless you have time to set the work aside a long long time. Modern 'lacquers' skin up fast, whilst staying gooey and rubbery underneath; once you penetrate the skin surface with the sanding paper, the gummy stuff underneath can be freed and become a pile of 'marbles'. Note all the isobutyl alcohol in the contents lists of these products. Makes me wanna get a compressor and blend my own lacquer to get that harder finish. Bubbanov

December 14th, 2007, 06:53 PM	#17 (permalink)
reddogbass Tele-Holic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Portland, Oregon Age: 61 Posts: 538 5 Photos	BLACK will show imperfections, such as orange peel, more so than any other color. Do yourself a favor and giver it a token sanding at least, to knock most of the high spots off. I always sand the color coats before clear topcoats. One reason is for some "tooth" and the other is to smooth (make flat- the finish, not the gloss) the color coat. If you don't, and you have some orange peel, or other imperfections, the humps, bumps, craters, and orange peel just get worse the more paint is put on. It also makes blocking/color sanding the clear much easier and allows for a thinner film thickness- which adds to durability. I too like the dry sanding because I'm impatient. Yeah there's the dust issue, but an air source, a shop-vac, and a tack cloth take care of it. And, a little (very little mind you) dust is no big deal with clearcoat lacquer. The problem with wet sanding is I don't have the patience to either let the surface dry sufficiently, or clean out the holes, etc. This will almost always result in blushing with the topcoats.