Tone caps...? Please explain.

[oltimeyrider]

What's the deal with tone caps and the way they work? What do the values mean?

On the Glendale site, they offer two types a .05 MFD/100 VDC and a .1 MFD/200 VDC.

On the Callaham site, the pre-wired assembly comes with a .047 mfd orange drop capacitor.

And on the Acme Guitar Works site it's crazy - http://www.acmeguitarworks.com/CAPS_...REPRO_C207.cfm - they've got caps with the same values but from different years.

What do these numbers mean in terms of tone?

What's the difference between "paper in oil" and ceramic?

What's "orange drop?"

I'm totally in the dark.
Thanks.

[KevinB]

From www.guitarelectronics.com who explains this better than I can...

How does the tone capacitor value affect the sound of the guitar?

Most guitars and basses with passive pickups use between .01 and .1MFD (Microfarad) tone capacitors with .02 (or .022) and .05 (or .047) being the most common choices. The capacitor and tone pot are wired together to provide a variable low pass filter. This means when the filter is engaged (tone pot is turned) only the low frequencies pass to the output jack and the high frequencies are grounded out (cut) In this application, the capacitor value determines the "cutoff frequency" of the filter and the position of the tone pot determines how much the highs (everything above the cutoff frequency) will be reduced. So the rule is: Larger capacitors will have lower cutoff frequency and sound darker in the bass setting because a wider range of frequencies is being reduced. Smaller capacitors will have a higher cutoff frequency and sound brighter in the bass setting because only the ultra high frequencies are cut. For this reason, dark sounding guitars like Les Pauls with humbuckers typically use .02MFD (or .022MFD) capacitors to cut off less of the highs and guitars like Strats and Teles with single coils typically use .05MFD capacitors to allow more treble to be rolled off. Keep in mind that the capacitor value only affects the sound when the tone control is being used (pot in the bass setting) The tone capacitor value will have little to no effect on the sound when the tone pot is in the treble setting.

As for "paper in oil" or ceramic, the former are more expensive, more "vintage correct" and are said to sound cleaner. They are typically used in amplifiers (where high voltages go through them), and particulary in high-end audio gear. Ceramics are typically smaller and much cheaper. With the very small voltages that passive pickups produce going through them, it's very debatable whether there's any notable difference.

Oh, and an Orange Drop is a good quality polypropylene capacitor that looks like this...

[blacklinefish]

I've used different types of capacitors of the same value, and *I* cannot tell a difference in the guitar tone control. The reason that I use the $1-2 versions, rather than the 25-cent style, is because I am a little heavy handed at soldering. Even with a heat-sink, I've held the iron on too long and seen the little caps get "sweaty" looking. With a mallory or orange drop, this is not as likely to happen.

Don't worry about the voltage differences for those caps inside the guitar, you'll never get to 100v in there!

I use a no-load tone pot in my tele - it is amazing how different the guitar sounds with the cap taken entirely out of the loop.

--gh

[Buckocaster51]

Personally, I like the blue ones.

Hard to find.

But I like them.

I have seen nothing that indicates that in this application anything but value makes a difference.

Electrons aren't rocket scientists you know!

[0le FUZZY]

...Man I loved iss here luminant won I used onna luminant TELECASTER.



...It jes seemed sew rite.

...It wood take three daze of typin ta splain caps and I noe I couldn't dew witt. Tew much basic lectrics muss be splained first.









(deranged internet-based alter ego, with my own lexicon and all.)

Please visit my page

[oltimeyrider]

Well, thanks for the replies. I know nothing about electronics and I don't do well with technical things. I guess the thing to remember is lower cap value more highs get through, Higher cap value, less highs get through. I think I can remember that...

Thanks again guys.

[Buckocaster51]

Now you know as much as me...really...

I have a friend who's father started an old-time radio and TV shop after the war. He has a bunch of old caps. Every now and then I go there, dig some out, put them on a meter, and grab the ones that measure closest to 0.047.

Nothing magic about that number...other than all my guitars tend to sound pretty similar.

Once upon a time I did the math that explained why they are found in such seemingly bizarre values... 1.0, 1.5, 2.2, 3.3, 4.7 or 6.8 and their multiples of 10. As I recall, it had something to do about covering all values with the least number of part numbers...I think it also had something to do with the uncertainty of manufacturing them.

I think they are pretty much ±20% or so...which is why if you really want a certain value, you need to measure it, rather than going by the code that is printed on it. A 0.039uF and a 0.051uF cap will both receive a 0.047uF stamp...but they will obviously perform differently.

Best advice I can give you is to experiment and find something tha you like.

Oh, and use the BLUE ones.

by the way...the ones I get from my buddy are Spragues...just like the one Ole Fuzzy showed.



I think that my buddy's started out life at Collins Electronics (now Rockwell-Collins) in Cedar Rapids IA. I'm sure that makes them MILSPEC!

[Bogo]

Those metal ones look like tantalums. Polarized I think but probably not a factor in the tele.

[tdowns]

KevinB's paste from guitar electronics is an accurate and valid piece of information.

A capacitor is two plates with a dielectric in between. At DC voltages, after charged, is an open circuit. Across high frequencies, it is a short. A capacitor in a guitar tone circuit simply provides a shunt circuit to ground for the high frequencies to be reduced. It is placed into the circuit by the tone pot. When the tone pot is max CCW, the cap is connected across the signal, and the higher frequencies (treble) is destroyed/shorted to ground. The lows make it through.

There are numerous properties of a capacitor that make it less than mathematically ideal, and are very important for many applications, but none of those are appreciable in a guitar tone circuit.

There are a lot of "smoke & mirrors" salesmanship for boutique capacitors. Don't ever buy into that BS. The only thing that matters is the capacitance of the capacitor for a guitar tone circuit.

It is important thing to note is that some of the cheap caps that are in the Fender guitars have a sloppy capacitance tolerance. This 0.05µF cap found in many modern day Fender guitars has a Z tolerance. The Z tolerance is +80/-20%. That means the cap marked as 0.05µF can be as high as 0.9µF. Some folks replace this with one that is a tighter tolerance and hear a big difference. It is not because is it paper and oil, it's because it is closer to the marked value.



If you want to pay more for the "period correct" looking caps, that is fine. However, a capacitor for the guitar tone circuit is not a Rube Goldberg machine.

[Montana_Dawg]

Originally Posted by tdowns

KevinB's paste from guitar electronics is an accurate and valid piece of information.

A capacitor is two plates with a dielectric in between. At DC voltages, after charged, is an open circuit. Across high frequencies, it is a short. A capacitor in a guitar tone circuit simply provides a shunt circuit to ground for the high frequencies to be reduced. It is placed into the circuit by the tone pot. When the tone pot is max CCW, the cap is connected across the signal, and the higher frequencies (treble) is destroyed/shorted to ground. The lows make it through.

There are numerous properties of a capacitor that make it less than mathematically ideal, and are very important for many applications, but none of those are appreciable in a guitar tone circuit.

There are a lot of "smoke & mirrors" salesmanship for boutique capacitors. Don't ever buy into that BS. The only thing that matters is the capacitance of the capacitor for a guitar tone circuit.

It is important thing to note is that some of the cheap caps that are in the Fender guitars have a sloppy capacitance tolerance. This 0.05µF cap found in many modern day Fender guitars has a Z tolerance. The Z tolerance is +80/-20%. That means the cap marked as 0.05µF can be as high as 0.9µF. Some folks replace this with one that is a tighter tolerance and hear a big difference. It is not because is it paper and oil, it's because it is closer to the marked value.



If you want to pay more for the "period correct" looking caps, that is fine. However, a capacitor for the guitar tone circuit is not a Rube Goldberg machine.

Absolutely!

The key is the tolerance, and not the construction. At least in low level circuits like guitars. With amplifiers and more complicated circuitry, things are much different.

In guitar circuits, a paper and oil cap that is exactly .047mF will not sound appreciably different than a ceramic cap that is exaclty .047mF.

As Terry stated, many of the caps used have huge tolerance swings. This would explain why comparing two similar Teles at a music store through the same amp would have to entirely different tones.

If you like the tone to be bright, use a smaller value cap. If you like it to be warmer, and boomier, then use a .047 or .1 mF (or anything in between).

There is no holy grail capacitor for guitars. I have used many different values to find where MY particular preference is.

Fender went to a .022mF to appease the masses, nothing more. They responded to complaints that the guitars were not bright enough. Which makes sense, as Leo made the Tele to be an all-around (including a bass type) guitar in the beginning. A .022mF is about the size that appeals to most players. However, any value will work in that range. It is all up to the individual.

On one guitar I have a .033mF, while on another I use a .1mF. Different tones for different applications.

Kinda like Keef having several guitars on stage with different tunings.

[TG]

Originally Posted by oltimeyrider

Well, thanks for the replies. I know nothing about electronics and I don't do well with technical things. I guess the thing to remember is lower cap value more highs get through, Higher cap value, less highs get through. I think I can remember that...

I'm the same. No matter how carefully it's explained I end up glassy eyed and non the wiser after most electronics 'educations'. Not 'tangible' enough for me or something since everything is happening invisibly inside wires and oddly shaped colored doodahs. Oh well.

But with regard caps in tone circuits I visualise it like this. Imagine your sound as a stick on end with the numbers 1 to 10 on it with 1 at the top. 1 is the treble and 10 is the bass end.
A .01 cap will 'shave' off the 1 at the top.
A .022 cap will shave the frequencies further down just past 2.
A .05 cap will shave off right down to the 5.
A little .001 cap will only shave off a tiny bit at the top, so even with the tone control rolled right off there will be very little difference to the sound.

And as the action of the cap is applied gradually as you turn the tone control it might be better to think of it as the stick being bent rather than shaved. This is why a player might prefer one cap size over another...the way the sound changes as you roll off the tone will be different with different caps. Different shaped 'bend'.

Does that help?

[Fatmanstratman]

Dunno if this helps, but I have extracted the relevant details from the Axes R Us website (UK based, great parts at good prices - no affiliation):

A "cap" short for "capacitor", is what separates a volume control pot from a tone control pot. A capacitor bleeds out a certain amount treble to the ground, based on the capacitor's vaule. The higher the value, the more treble the cap bleeds out to the ground, resulting in a bassier tone. A capacitor doesn't add bass, it just simply removes a portion of the treble based on the capacitor's value. By picking a certain capacitor value we can passively increase/decrease the amount of bass/treble our tone pot is able to dial into.

We measure capacitors in microfards, (mF), (mfd) or (µF), any abbreviation is acceptable. I use (mF) since it's easier to type then (µF). Most manufactors will sell capacitors under the (µF) abbreviation. (0.050mF) - (0.001mF) caps are used mostly on electric guitars tone pots. (0.100mF) - (0.050mF) caps are mostly used on electric basses. The larger the value (0.100mF) the more bass your tone pot will be able to dial into. The smaller the value (0.001mF) the more treble you will be able to dial into. If you are looking for the brightest possible tone, then you can remove your capacitor all together. It would render the tone pot useless though. Without a capacitor in the way, you would get the "true" tone of the pickups. The chart displays the most common capacitor values.

Common Capacitor Value:

.005 mf Treble and bright flow thru easily.
.033 mf Cuts out a small amount of brights, has good mid range, capacitor used by most players.
.047 mf Beefier sounding, lots of mids and bass range, most electric guitars don't exceed this value.
.100 mf Bassy sounding, almost all brights are gone, used mostly in electric bass and active pickups.

Even a simpleton like ol' Fatman could understand that!...

Don't ask me for any technical advice in respect of caps, etc. - Terry Downs has probably forgotten more about this stuff than the Fatman could ever hope to learn!...

[dibber124]

I own a electronic repair shop and have every kind of cap you could think of on hand including some very expensive "boutique" caps for high end audio amps. For guitar tone caps
I use .022 or .047 film caps of any kind, (usually Mallory 150's) all sound the same as tone bypass caps. I just stay away from ceramic caps as the tolerance is too wide and they can have problems like microphonics and such. Just my .02

[6x47]

Originally Posted by oltimeyrider

What's the deal with tone caps and the way they work? What do the values mean?

Lots of good replies in this thread but here's some links which help explain caps ( this is a repost of an earlier reply);

Here's some information so you can look up how to read the caps yourself.

Common tele values are .022 and .047 which won't mean much to you until you check out how to read them.
Fender supplys the .022 with their replacement pots, the .047 gives a more mellow sound.

http://www.montek.com/tutorials/cap_codes.html

http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/capac.htm

http://wiki.xtronics.com/index.php/Capacitor_codes

http://www.play-hookey.com/dc_theory...or_values.html

http://www.rfcafe.com/references/ele...tor_values.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolytic_capacitor

[oltimeyrider]

Great responses everybody. Thanks again.

TG, great visual - you made it easier to wrap my dense head around the concepts here.

Okay...next question....

What about when you have the tone control wide open and the treb. is cranked... Does the cap value have any effect on the tone (highs) inthis position or is it only an issue once you start to roll off the highs?

[TG]

Originally Posted by oltimeyrider

What about when you have the tone control wide open and the treb. is cranked... Does the cap value have any effect on the tone (highs) inthis position or is it only an issue once you start to roll off the highs?

I've heard it said by knowledgable online nerdy types that the cap does have some effect on the overall tone of the guitar even with the tone control 'on full'. Bigger value caps make a warmer sound overall, apparently.

Dunno if it's true or not.
(And if it is true I wouldn't have a clue how or why.)

[Montana_Dawg]

Originally Posted by TG

I've heard it said by knowledgable online nerdy types that the cap does have some effect on the overall tone of the guitar even with the tone control 'on full'. Bigger value caps make a warmer sound overall, apparently.

Dunno if it's true or not.
(And if it is true I wouldn't have a clue how or why.)

It does have a loading effect even with the tone on bull bright. The only way to prevent this is to have a no-load, or even take the pot out. With a no-load, the last little bit of the carbon is taken off. This allows the full signal to pass.

[skyboltone]

Originally Posted by Bogo

Those metal ones look like tantalums. Polarized I think but probably not a factor in the tele.

Tantalum is pretty new technology. Those old sangamos are paper in oil.

[Robbie W]

Originally Posted by tdowns

There are a lot of "smoke & mirrors" salesmanship for boutique capacitors. Don't ever buy into that BS. The only thing that matters is the capacitance of the capacitor for a guitar tone circuit.

It is important thing to note is that some of the cheap caps that are in the Fender guitars have a sloppy capacitance tolerance. This 0.05µF cap found in many modern day Fender guitars has a Z tolerance. The Z tolerance is +80/-20%. That means the cap marked as 0.05µF can be as high as 0.9µF. Some folks replace this with one that is a tighter tolerance and hear a big difference. It is not because is it paper and oil, it's because it is closer to the marked value.

If you want to pay more for the "period correct" looking caps, that is fine. However, a capacitor for the guitar tone circuit is not a Rube Goldberg machine.

+1 bigtime

I attribute the use of silver mica caps to attain a "brighter" tone directly to the fact Terry mentions in regard to better tolerance specs (i.e. ceramic versus silver mica).

take care,
Robbie Wallace