List the songs where guitar tone is crucial

[iluvblackfrancis]

Many people over look the great tone coming from the Dimazio Super-distortions in Kurt Cobain's jaguar for the "Nevermind" album. It's probably the best sounding guitar I've ever heard in my life. Whenever someone else tries to play it, it sounds really lifeless.

[btubbs]

I'd say 'most anything by Sonic Youth. Each song is its own little unique world of sound. I know a lot of that is the combinations of tunings that they use, but guitar tone is a big factor. Certainly not everyone's cup of tea, but I think their best is pretty amazing.

Brian

[genelovesjez]

Bob,

I guess I'm still not really clear on what your basic premise is. It seems that a lot of "tone" discussions get lost in semantics, given that everyone has their own ideas about "good tone" vs. "good sound" and so on. The Yardbirds' Heart Full of Soul is a good example of this conundrum - to some, it's an example of "good tone", given that it works for the song, to others it's "bad tone" (imagine if Jeff Beck always sounded like that) that might work for that song, but wouldn't work for other songs. When it comes to certain genres like the blues, many people have fairly fixed ideas of tone, and anything that drifts too far from that is "bad". So, it's a murky subject at best.

Still, if I understand your premise as follows...

Originally Posted by Bob Rogers

One of the most important legs of my argument would be that tone or timbre is one of the least important elements of music.

...are you saying that the actual sound you make is not important? I think that would be a tough argument. Am I understanding that correctly? Is that like saying someone can be a great singer based on technique and judgment without having a decent voice? I suppose it's possible (everyone's going to mention Neil Young, Bob Dylan, etc., etc.), but I'm not sure it's really true (remember Bob Dylan's disastrous run as the Phantom of the Opera?). Okay - I'm kidding about that. But seriously, throughout the history of music, from the Stradivarius to the Strat, hasn't the actual sounded note been at least an equal partner to everything else? Don't reed and horn players devote years to perfecting their embouchure? I'm no scientician, but I believe research has shown that certain sounds are more appealing to humans than others based on certain qualities like complexity and overtones. Are you saying that none of this matters?

I know it often seems in our guitar world that people obsess about the wrong things when everyone's an expert on "tone" and no one can play worth a damn, but is it really so unimportant?

Perhaps I'm taking a very narrow view of your premise, and if so, I apologize. But I am very curious as to where you're going with this. I hope you'll post your essay when it's completed.

[Bob Rogers]

I guess I'm still not really clear on what your basic premise is.

I want to discuss the relative importance of tone/sound/timbre. (In the basic Music 101 description of the "elements of music" they use the word "timbre" for harmonic content. That's what I'm talking about when I use the word "tone." More on that below.) My basic premise is that tone/timbre is much less important than dynamics and rhythm and that musicians should adjust our priorities accordingly. I have no intention of arguing that tone is not important - we've been listing songs where it is vital. It's a question of degree and balance. I do want to make the case that it is not an equal partner, or at the very least it is not as important as we make it out to be.

It's going to be important to define terms. If I understand correctly, Spyder and Silverface are using "sound" for "timbre." They seem to use "tone" to describe a complex combination of things like phrasing (which mostly has to do with time), attack (mostly dynamics) and vibrato (mostly pitch and time). These are the things that I want to argue are the more important elements in music. It seems confusing to use the word "tone" to refer to things like this. (If that's what they are doing.) You don't affect these things (much) when you turn the "tone" control on your guitar or amp. And when people describe endless shopping for gear as a "tonequest" they aren't talking about practicing their dynamics and phrasing. (Besides, if I write as essay on how "sound" is overrated in music, people will think I'm crazy.)

Anyway. I'll keep thinking about this, and I will post when I write this up.

[Hucklebilly]

I think Bob is on to something. It's not that tone is unimportant, but if you HAD to rank tone, timing, tuning and taste, tone would definitely be last in my book. Luckily, good musicians tend to have all these elements, so it's kind of an artificial dilemma, but as a thought experiment it is interesting.

[Oskar]

is to define tone. From reading these posts it's obvious to me that there are as many definitions of tone (or at least understandings of what tone is) as there are sets of ears in the world. Also, why is it that guitar players, espeically, but not exclusively, blues players seem to zone in on "tone". I don't hear sax players speak of tone in the same way, nor do orchestral violin players. How about piano players across all disciplines of music. Is there "tone" in Rap or Hip-Hop? How about Gospel, or Polka, or Klezmer? And then there is the whole cultural thing. Is there tone in American Indian chants, and Japanese Koto music? Hopefully I'm not stretching this to thin, but there may be something that is equivalent, and I think if you are to pursue this essay that you research what "tone" is relative to other music. I think you've got quite a challenge on your hands, but I also support your premise that tone is not very important. Only because it seems to me to be such a subjective matter, and that's only for starters. Good luck. Will be looking forward to reading the final piece.

[dean]

When I first read the post and a few of the initial responses, my first reaction was to suggest that you call DICK DALE! And to some extent, I feel the tone he creates is as important as the other characteristics you define above.

But after reading your definitions, I really was pressed to come up with some artists with identifiably unique tone. The one that just jumped out at me is Wes Montgomery - he seems to have a truly unique tone. Another might be Carlos Santana.

If your original premise holds up (i.e. that tone is the least important of the elements that make songs work), then the implications support what so many on this board have stated for years - that the magic is in one's hands. And that's probably the case for phrasing, attack, vibrato, etc.

But maybe tone (as you describe it) is the one important element of the whole package that can be bought. It may be the single facet of the whole package that can be manipulated by changing, buying, swapping, rewiring, nitro-ing, or restringing. If tone can be bought, then that's why it is such an obsession for people. If I can change my pickups and sound better (to my ears), then should I forego that? Of course, if I practiced more, my playing and my sound would get much better - but the tone still might be very important for the overall sound.

So, can one buy a particular "tone"? I think so - but then, look at the quote below. :D

[JoeyV]

Tone...tone tone,,,tone...tone is a marketing tool to sell overdrive pedals and boutique amps....you want good tone here it is...a pretty good guitar that is well set up, an amp in good working condition with fresh tubes and learn how to play the crap out of your guitar...that is good tone, stuff that sounds good on your instrument...good songs always have a good tone..forget about making sounds on the guitar or copying other peoples tones..its fruitless and cost you money......just play what you got and love it or find that guitar and amp that just makes you play good and you like its sound.......make it work for you baby!!! You got tone right there...right now.....all you got to do is play .....Go for it!!!! You are a tone monster!!! You got it !!! I love your tone...in fact I love all guitar tones because I just love the guitar so much!!!

[Oskar]

I think you're right that tone has become a marketing ploy, and we've all fallen victim to it at some point in time. As a result, I think Bob may have the basis for a pretty good article. When I first started playing (way, back when) "tone" was referred to as the knobs on the amp that gave me more bass and treble. That of course turned into "equalization", and tone evolved into whatever it is considered to be today.

[Teleologist]

Another aspect of this may be the importance of hooks and being able to recognize a song or artist very quickly. I'd guess that many people can identify 'Satisfaction' after hearing only the 1st two notes. Play them clean and all bets are off. Another example would be the compressed/treble boosted sound of the Ric 12 on early Byrds songs like "Tambourine Man" and "Turn Turn Turn".

Coming up with great unique-sounding hooks that can be woven into a song is far more important than a hot solo IMO. Play the hooks right with the right sound and the audience will recognize a cover, but in most cases you can improvise the solo and everyone but the guitar players in the audience won't care.

[Hucklebilly]

Or should that be "whom"? To an english professor if makes a lot more difference than to the general population, which leads me to my point: It seems one key distinction here is that tone probably matters a lot more to musicians than the average listener, which is as it should be. Musicians (one would hope) have more sensitive ears, along with all kinds of superstitions and quirks about what they like to hear coming out of their guitar/amp. (And see and feel, for that matter. Many people on this forum have commented that most people think rosewood fretboards sound warmer because look and feel warmer, somehow. I'll bet there's some truth to that). Bottom line, we have to like our tone, but we shouldn't expect the other 99% of listeners to share our obesessions.

[cowboy]

and everything else that everyone has said but the opening riff(s) on that song gives me goosebumps....later.

cowboy

[TheGoodTexan]

Originally Posted by Bob Rogers

So I can argue that even at it's most important, tone takes a back seat to rhythm, melody, etc

I think that specific tone ALWAYS takes a backseat to rhythm. If you're not in rhythm with the rest of the band, it ruins the entire song, right? Even Purple Haze.

Now if you're speaking of choosing one correct rhythm pattern over another correct rhythm pattern, that may be a different story.

Another important point - this all depends on the listener's familiarity with the specific song in the first place. If someone has never heard Purple Haze at all, would they be distracted by rhythm or tone at all?

[KBR]

Bob Rodgers wrote

"Now, I'd really disagree here. Stevie's tone was wonderful, but to me it is way down the list of things that made his style special - phrasing, melodic sense, dynamics were much more important. Imagine him playing Lenny with completely different equipment, say an acoustic or a jazz box into a solid state. To me it's easy to imagine, and it would still be his style and his song."

To me:
Tone is cruical in all songs.
What good is SRV's or anyones phrasing, etc. if it has bad tone.

Tone is all,

Dig Albert King, the TONE Man (Try any Fillmore cd, or Live wire Blues Power, Try Albert Collins Truckin album/cd


If one questions Tone, He/she ain't got none.
I rest my case.

[Bob Rogers]

Originally Posted by KBR

Bob Rodgers wrote

"Now, I'd really disagree here. Stevie's tone was wonderful, but to me it is way down the list of things that made his style special - phrasing, melodic sense, dynamics were much more important. Imagine him playing Lenny with completely different equipment, say an acoustic or a jazz box into a solid state. To me it's easy to imagine, and it would still be his style and his song."

To me:
Tone is cruical in all songs.
What good is SRV's or anyones phrasing, etc. if it has bad tone.

Tone is all,

Dig Albert King, the TONE Man (Try any Fillmore cd, or Live wire Blues Power, Try Albert Collins Truckin album/cd

I've never implied that you can have good music with bad tone - just that tone is less important than other elements of music. But of course, anyone who says "Tone is all" is saying that if any of your tone heros stepped on stage, missed all the changes and played with terrible time it would still be great because of the great tone.

If one questions Tone, He/she ain't got none.
I rest my case.

I guess that's intended as an insult, but if you think that is a "case" - an intellegent argument as opposed to macho posturing - you definitly need a long rest.

[KBR]

Hey I am merely stating, to me, Bob, Tone is important.
All the Players I like that have good Tone, and also have excellent timing, & don't miss changes.

Tone is part of being a Great Player.
Tone is generated from ones Touch, and what you play is generated from The Heart & Soul.
No Machoism here, I play what I like, and to Me, Tone is super important.
It's just my opinion, only. The next person may not care about Tone or sounding Good (or whatever).

Hey most of the MONEY groups, don't know what tone is, like Pop Music, It's hard to take, awards shows being an example of Groups making Big $.


IMHO
KBR

[JoeyV]

Any guitar that is well setup, and any amp of relative quality be it solid state or tube in great working order, with a sensible EQ setting will produce a great tone however, you put crap in, crap will come out (I'm quoting a studio owner who has probably one of the worlds most expensive microphone collections including the $15,000.00 Sony Mic as well as a ton of vintage Neave stuff) It all comes down to playing and using your guitar and amp correctly......if you like your tone , thats fine most likely others will find it pleasing to the ear also,,,just dont get hung up on it...the standard stuff works well....Teles , Strats, Les Pauls etc. into a nice amp and some good old fashion playing will sound good..be sensible with your EQ settings and get your guitar set up really well...you will feel good playing and your tone will be all you want it to be....play, play, play and sound the way you think you should sound..not what some blow hard tells you what you should sound like...sound the way you want.....be happy, play guitars and spread the love baby!!!

[stantheman]

and Man my head is HURTIN'....The most
unique tone (first time) I ever heard in my
life (after Louisiana Blues <Muddy&Lil Walter>)
is Son Seals's tone....raw,unforgiving, almost
like and argument in the apartment next door
kind of a thing...and he made it work...later on
around the time of Bad Axe he discovered
sustain and reverb and lost a lot of that raw
funk which is a shame. I think Son Seal's
tone on "Midnight Son" was one of the High
Water Marks of Post-War Blues and Son's
chops are some of the most unique in Post-War
Music period.
FOR THE RECORD: Son Seals, Luther Guitar Junior
Johnson, and Fenton Robinson are three that you
must hear.
ps: Son Seal's great live tone originally was a
Guild Starfire VI and a dry Fender Bassman with
the small 2X12 bottom (1970's).

[JoeyV]

Ahhh Fenton Robinson!!! What a player ...he always had a nice sound....loved his stuff in the 1950's the swingin Texas blues guitar tone...right from the loins of TBone Walker...My favortie song of his is "I Can Here My Baby Calling" Fenton Robinson, Larry Davis, Cal Green , Wayne Bennett, Luther Tucker, Roy Gaines, Jimmy Nolen and Pee Wee Crayton are my favorite blues players...8) Hollow body into a tweed amp guys...(I know Luther Tucker was a strat + super guy)

[Ronkirn]

Now this is a hot topic with me… In my many years of working on guitars and with guitarists, I have found those most obsessive with tone are usually those that can’t play worth a hoot. A pro simply wants a tool that plays/feels right.

The actual tone of a guitar is a function of many variables. Pickups and the wood used for the body are the most oft cited. These are followed closely by the finish used, nitrocellulose lacquer being the finish of choice among tone freaks. None of them mean a hoot if you can play.

However the single most important factor in a recording artist’s specific tone is the recording producer, followed by the 200 thousand dollar audio console, then the multi million electronics etc. Of course the style, technique and talent of the guitarist may figure into the equation juuuust a little too. You get the point.

As for the stunning sound of, say Stevie Ray, do any of you think for a moment he would have never risen above playing in cheep bars had he played a Les Paul, which of course has a completely different sound than his all to recognizable, and missed I might say, Strat? The same is true of absolutely any professional guitarist you care to mention.

I have had the pleasure of sitting with many “pros” over the years. It’s absolutely amazing how any one of them can take a 49 dollar piece of junk guitar and make you only dream of getting the same sound out of it. If that point escapes you let me put it this way. You can hand a 50 dollar K-mart special guitar to a pro and the sound/music will astound you, but hand a $20,000.00 custom built work of art to an amateur and the music will still suck. The only rational conclusion. . . it ain’t the ax bro…. it’s the talent that’s contained in the six inches of grey matter between the years.

So this begs the question, why does a guitarist like SRV, Clapton, et al, play the same guitar for ever? Well there are two answers. The first is, as you get more and more proficient at what you do and the tools you use, you find the most subtle differences between similar tools become major annoyances. This it true of Guitarists, Golfers, Carpenters, Pianists, Automobile Race Car Drivers, whatever; at the professional level, it’s almost 90% mental, but the feel of those things you use to do whatcha do, become very important. I knew an assistant to Andres Segovia; the Maestro would tune his Jose Ramirez by simply touching the strings to feel the tension, Now, that is consummate familiarity with your instrument.

The second answer is: They don’t. . They do not play the same guitar forever. They have master luthiers they return to constantly to “tweak” their guitar. Thus their ax is in a constant state of flux. Like, you think Clapton never had a fret job? Talk about changing a guitar. In fact many will have several guitars made to look exactly alike, so you think they are playing the same one, and will want it, and will pay big bux for the Super Wizard Funky Ye Olde Time Vintage reissue Signature model with the reliced finish. It’s marketing 101 man.

Now throughout this thread, there is the mention of Jimi Hendrix’s tone…Tone! Are you kidding me? His sound is over modulated over, driven electronically manipulated, signals. His upside down Strat had very little to do with his sound. His talent and the electronics had everything to do with his sound. GAWD!! I miss him…. But he would still have been incredible had he been playing a Gibson L5.

Tone and sound are completely different. To experience an elementary difference in tone, play a few bars on your favorite ax, then change the strings, changing nothing else. That is an example of a change in tone due to a mechanical function. Wood, Pickups, Lacquer are all mechanical, although the pickups are dual. . . mechanical/electronic.

To experience a change in sound, just twist a knob on the amp, or stomp an effects pedal, etc.

The bottom line in this long winded rant is this. Guys, all of you, even those of you with many years of experience (but you know this already), the absolute best way to change the tone, sound, whatever you want to call it, to get that sound to the point where every one will watch YOU and wonder what the heck is HIS secret, is to get good lessons. . . period. The 400 bux you want to spend on some super set of pickups, or the 2 grand you want to dump on the 50 year old refurbished tube amp, or any other money you want to spend on some gizmo that you think will make your sound exceptional will be better spent with a maestro teaching you what you need to know.

Now that all said, I mentioned earlier that it’s 90% mental, therefore you HAVE to be happy with what you are playing. Therefore spending a few bux on some funky toy for the guitar may be what you need to get you fired up again.

The old joke. . . A tourist asks an old gentleman carrying a violin case in New York, How do you get to Carnegie Hall? . . . His answer. . . Practice man, Practice.