Pine bodies - why did they not continue them?

Geoff738 · June 15th, 2007, 01:02 AM

Some of the earliest tele-styled guitars had pine bodies. then Fender went to ash and later alder.

My question is, why?

Sonics? Ease of finishing? Supply and/ or cost? (I would've thought that pine was at least as plentiful, and as cheap, as any alternative - but I could be very wrong) Other?

I'm quite curious. I would've thought pinne to be a lightweight, resonant, plentiful, low cost wood. In other words, ideal for making guitars. But early Fender tele models (well pre-tele I think) such as the 2 pickup esquires are the only production models at least that I know of that are made of pine. I may be showing my ignorance of such matters here, but, who else has made guitar bodies made of pine. Why aren't they more prevalent?

And, those who've made pinecasters, tell us why you went that way and the advantages.

thanks,
geoff738

David Barnett · June 15th, 2007, 01:11 AM

If you drop one, it leaves quite a mark.

Bill Hullett · June 15th, 2007, 01:14 AM

The story goes as I've heard it that......Sales force in the feild in Fenders infancy gripped to Leo that the guitar was being thought of in a "less than serious" light because it lacked two components....1. a hardwood body 2. a truss rod in the neck....Viola' here comes the Broadcaster.....57 years later we can freely talk about the attritubes of both pine bodies and a trussrodless neck....both of which are killer IMHO but when Fender was barely more than a garage operation I bet they felt a strong need to cater to the music stores opinions....

Bill Hullett

Telemarkman · June 15th, 2007, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoff738

My question is, why?

Like the guys said, Leo found pine to be too soft and easily dented for a professional guitar - a "workingman's tool".

He also preferred a "blonde" finish to the black one, and thought the grain of the ash looked better with a transparent finish.

So the change was merely for practical and aestetic reasons, not sonic.

Lostheart · June 15th, 2007, 02:17 AM

I have also read something about the sap/pitch in pine on the reranch board.
If you don't seal the wood properly the pitch in the wood will cause the paint to bubble...never thought of that but it does make sense...

Mark Davis · June 15th, 2007, 09:59 AM

The story I heard many years ago was Leo gave a few of these 1st Teles to country musicians in the LA area and a couple of them got dropped and big slivers of wood came out. The pine just wasnt a hard enough wood to withstand abuse. So Leo made the rest out of ASH.

scooteraz · June 15th, 2007, 10:31 AM

Certianly, ash won't dent as easily as pine.

Looking at the pine bodies, I had wondered about this. That is, would pine really be a gig-worthy instrument. On the other hand, looks like it will "relic" faster.

daddyopapa · June 15th, 2007, 10:46 AM

When you examine the atrributes of pine, alder, and ash, it is easy to see why ash and alder were selected but pine was not. Pine is a great wood for custom guitars but I wouldn't want to be the accountant tracking warranty costs if there were 200,000 pine Teles out there.

gtech · June 15th, 2007, 10:50 AM

We should ask Arlo if he's got ptoblems with his pinecasters...

http://pinecaster.com/

He's the only one that I know who has more than one and gigs with them

Gilles

Buckocaster51 · June 15th, 2007, 11:05 AM

From personal experience I know that poplar is soft and easily dented...and poplar is a hardwood.

I can't imagine what it would be like to keep a pine-bodied guitar looking snazzy.

DavidE · June 15th, 2007, 11:14 AM

I doubt Leo or anyone else ever really considered pine as a final material for the guitar they were designing. To look at this from a slightly different angle...pine was just the material they had on hand at the time for making amp cabinets. That's probably why at least some (if not all) of the Pine Esquires were made from four pieces of 3/4" pine glued up...exactly the material they had in stock. This also explains why they were only 1-1/2" thick too. Why commit to thousands of board feet of lumber for a design that no one knew would even "fly" in the marketplace? Just make up some samples using what you have on hand.

cheers,
David

kubton · June 15th, 2007, 12:04 PM

Glad this came up I have always wondered. I never though about the softness for some reason. My guitar get beat up but a big chunk break off or crack. I guessed it might have been the how sap or knotty pine is. Pine to me has seems to be more knotty than some other woods and I figured people would like that. The amp cab explanation makes a lot of sense.

Arlo · June 15th, 2007, 12:13 PM

Pine is soft. It dents VERY easily.

However it can be protected very well with Poly which in itself is very protective. But it still will dent quite easily.

I love my Pines and I have a lot of em Strats and Tele's. They are very light and really comfortable for an ol geezer like me. I played a Fender 25th anniversary Stratocaster since 1979 and let me tell you that sucker was like a cinder block!

Pine is still used by lots of guitarists and builders like Glendale.

I have had a pitch/sap problem with only one Pinecaster. Not bad since I have so many.

The biggest negative is the softness. But not all pine is soft. Southern Yellow at least the 100+ year old Tele body I have is nice and firm. All I used on it was a Danish Oil.

I have another Piner that is Eastern and it is soft as heck and only has a Howard's feed n wax finish. It has a nice buckle rash going and it is about 1 year old. It doesn't take a lot to dent this one.

Another one I built using very old 100 year old Eastern Pine and painted with a light coating of re-ranch Fender blonde is insanely soft. I was playing a gig with it and a drunken buddy of mine decided he wanted to sing and knocked a mic over and it left a very ugly mic screen dent.

So everything you have read above is true and yet people still like to build with it. Including Fender!

ibobunot · June 15th, 2007, 02:21 PM

If pine guitars were common would anybody want one?

Or would it be like a Squier Bullet that nobody wants?

gtech · June 15th, 2007, 03:23 PM

I have a pine Tele, and a couple of soft white walnut (not wet completed) that are quite soft, and I begin to like the weight.

For me, it's not worst than playing an acoustic guitar because the wood of acoustic is also soft.

Gilles

messhead · June 15th, 2007, 03:57 PM

Love my Pine Esquire. Light, looks good, plays and sounds great. BUT, just like everyone here has said, it takes next to nothing to ding it up.

Ronkirn · June 15th, 2007, 07:04 PM

Quote:

the guitar was being thought of in a "less than serious"

Yup. . . the stories of early marketing are quite interesting....

Ron Kirn

Ronkirn · June 15th, 2007, 07:14 PM

Quote:

poplar is soft and easily dented

The density of Poplar is virtually identical to Alder.

The label “hardwood” does not mean the wood is hard… it is a classification of type of lumber, for instance, Balsa, is a Hardwood.

The Pine used 50 years ago was a different animal than the lumber we have today, back then it was a naturally grown tree, today they are genetically modified and other agricultural technology is incorporated to speed growth. A faster growing tree is naturally softer than one growing naturally.

Oh…. Yep… I kinda like pine……

Ron Kirn

David Barnett · June 15th, 2007, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Hullett

The story goes as I've heard it that......Sales force in the feild in Fenders infancy gripped to Leo that the guitar was being thought of in a "less than serious" light because it lacked two components....1. a hardwood body 2. a truss rod in the neck....Viola' here comes the Broadcaster.....57 years later we can freely talk about the attritubes of both pine bodies and a trussrodless neck....both of which are killer IMHO but when Fender was barely more than a garage operation I bet they felt a strong need to cater to the music stores opinions....

What are the killer attributes of a trussrodless neck?

And when did Fender make a viola? :)

Vegasrock · June 15th, 2007, 08:34 PM

I put a coat of wood hardener on my pine bodies during prep and it really does wonders.

Ronkirn · June 15th, 2007, 08:37 PM

Quote:

And when did Fender make a viola?

Haven't ya ever heard of Antonio Stradivari Fenderio

Ron Kirn

gtech · June 15th, 2007, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vegasrock

I put a coat of wood hardener on my pine bodies during prep and it really does wonders.

I wondered about that.

Thanks for mentionning it...

Gilles

boris bubbanov · June 15th, 2007, 10:19 PM

I've got some one by six tongue and groove boards in my attic, sixty-five years of drying, straight true dense and dry. Gonna use most of it to redo the one oak floored room that blew up bad in six feet of muddy water that was Katrina. Oak floor is (was) attached to the diagonal subfloor ( more of that same ol pine) with cut nails, if you can imagine. I may wrangle up some of the prettiest pieces and laminate up a tele body or two.
I am concerned the wood may be too brittle and suffer tear out and splintering, so I may have to soak the pieces in some form of conditioner for a year or so. This stuff is very hard and probably won't dent easily. It may also sound like manure, one never knows.

Bubbanov

David Barnett · June 16th, 2007, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boris bubbanov

This stuff is very hard and probably won't dent easily. It may also sound like manure, one never knows.

As long as it doesn't smell like it, you're probably okay.

Doug 54 · June 16th, 2007, 08:09 AM

How are the Glendale/Poe bodies??

June 15th, 2007, 01:02 AM	#1 (permalink)
Geoff738 Tele-Meister Join Date: May 2007 Location: Toronto Age: 44 Posts: 218	Pine bodies - why did they not continue them? Some of the earliest tele-styled guitars had pine bodies. then Fender went to ash and later alder. My question is, why? Sonics? Ease of finishing? Supply and/ or cost? (I would've thought that pine was at least as plentiful, and as cheap, as any alternative - but I could be very wrong) Other? I'm quite curious. I would've thought pinne to be a lightweight, resonant, plentiful, low cost wood. In other words, ideal for making guitars. But early Fender tele models (well pre-tele I think) such as the 2 pickup esquires are the only production models at least that I know of that are made of pine. I may be showing my ignorance of such matters here, but, who else has made guitar bodies made of pine. Why aren't they more prevalent? And, those who've made pinecasters, tell us why you went that way and the advantages. thanks, geoff738

June 15th, 2007, 01:14 AM	#3 (permalink)
Bill Hullett Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nashville Tn. Posts: 1,184	Geoff The story goes as I've heard it that......Sales force in the feild in Fenders infancy gripped to Leo that the guitar was being thought of in a "less than serious" light because it lacked two components....1. a hardwood body 2. a truss rod in the neck....Viola' here comes the Broadcaster.....57 years later we can freely talk about the attritubes of both pine bodies and a trussrodless neck....both of which are killer IMHO but when Fender was barely more than a garage operation I bet they felt a strong need to cater to the music stores opinions.... Bill Hullett

June 15th, 2007, 02:17 AM	#5 (permalink)
Lostheart Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 1,237	I have also read something about the sap/pitch in pine on the reranch board. If you don't seal the wood properly the pitch in the wood will cause the paint to bubble...never thought of that but it does make sense... __________________ Casper: "Mmmmm. Butterscotch, yo. That's the best!" From the movie Kids

June 15th, 2007, 09:59 AM	#6 (permalink)
Mark Davis Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bakersfield Ca. Age: 57 Posts: 11,574	The story I heard many years ago was Leo gave a few of these 1st Teles to country musicians in the LA area and a couple of them got dropped and big slivers of wood came out. The pine just wasnt a hard enough wood to withstand abuse. So Leo made the rest out of ASH. __________________ I'm so blind my seeing eye dog needs glasses.

June 15th, 2007, 10:46 AM	#8 (permalink)
daddyopapa Tele-Meister Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: BC Canada Posts: 498	When you examine the atrributes of pine, alder, and ash, it is easy to see why ash and alder were selected but pine was not. Pine is a great wood for custom guitars but I wouldn't want to be the accountant tracking warranty costs if there were 200,000 pine Teles out there. __________________ Don't let them steal your joy.

June 15th, 2007, 01:11 AM	#2 (permalink)
David Barnett Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: LIttle Rock, AR Age: 51 Posts: 5,079	If you drop one, it leaves quite a mark.

June 15th, 2007, 10:31 AM	#7 (permalink)
scooteraz Tele-Holic Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Peoria, AZ Posts: 721	Certianly, ash won't dent as easily as pine. Looking at the pine bodies, I had wondered about this. That is, would pine really be a gig-worthy instrument. On the other hand, looks like it will "relic" faster.

June 15th, 2007, 10:50 AM	#9 (permalink)
gtech Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Quebec, Canada Age: 59 Posts: 1,915 171 Photos	We should ask Arlo if he's got ptoblems with his pinecasters... http://pinecaster.com/ He's the only one that I know who has more than one and gigs with them Gilles __________________ Back to practice now...to make my Teles sound good.

June 15th, 2007, 11:05 AM	#10 (permalink)
Buckocaster51 Friend of Leo's Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Iowa USA Age: 56 Posts: 4,305 1 Photos	From personal experience I know that poplar is soft and easily dented...and poplar is a hardwood. I can't imagine what it would be like to keep a pine-bodied guitar looking snazzy. __________________ "An awfully lot of time can be wasted waiting for the right time." - Gunsmoke's Doc Adams

June 15th, 2007, 11:14 AM	#11 (permalink)
DavidE Tele-Meister Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 149	I doubt Leo or anyone else ever really considered pine as a final material for the guitar they were designing. To look at this from a slightly different angle...pine was just the material they had on hand at the time for making amp cabinets. That's probably why at least some (if not all) of the Pine Esquires were made from four pieces of 3/4" pine glued up...exactly the material they had in stock. This also explains why they were only 1-1/2" thick too. Why commit to thousands of board feet of lumber for a design that no one knew would even "fly" in the marketplace? Just make up some samples using what you have on hand. cheers, David

June 15th, 2007, 12:04 PM	#12 (permalink)
kubton TDPRI Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: turnsile of the american west Posts: 27	Glad this came up I have always wondered. I never though about the softness for some reason. My guitar get beat up but a big chunk break off or crack. I guessed it might have been the how sap or knotty pine is. Pine to me has seems to be more knotty than some other woods and I figured people would like that. The amp cab explanation makes a lot of sense.

June 15th, 2007, 12:13 PM	#13 (permalink)
Arlo Friend of Leo's Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Maine [in a van down by the river] Age: 49 Posts: 2,138	Pine is soft. It dents VERY easily. However it can be protected very well with Poly which in itself is very protective. But it still will dent quite easily. I love my Pines and I have a lot of em Strats and Tele's. They are very light and really comfortable for an ol geezer like me. I played a Fender 25th anniversary Stratocaster since 1979 and let me tell you that sucker was like a cinder block! Pine is still used by lots of guitarists and builders like Glendale. I have had a pitch/sap problem with only one Pinecaster. Not bad since I have so many. The biggest negative is the softness. But not all pine is soft. Southern Yellow at least the 100+ year old Tele body I have is nice and firm. All I used on it was a Danish Oil. I have another Piner that is Eastern and it is soft as heck and only has a Howard's feed n wax finish. It has a nice buckle rash going and it is about 1 year old. It doesn't take a lot to dent this one. Another one I built using very old 100 year old Eastern Pine and painted with a light coating of re-ranch Fender blonde is insanely soft. I was playing a gig with it and a drunken buddy of mine decided he wanted to sing and knocked a mic over and it left a very ugly mic screen dent. So everything you have read above is true and yet people still like to build with it. Including Fender! __________________ My music? It is free for my friends. Last edited by Arlo : June 15th, 2007 at 12:45 PM.

June 15th, 2007, 02:21 PM	#14 (permalink)
ibobunot Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Pueblo, Colorado Age: 55 Posts: 2,883	If pine guitars were common would anybody want one? Or would it be like a Squier Bullet that nobody wants?

June 15th, 2007, 03:23 PM	#15 (permalink)
gtech Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Quebec, Canada Age: 59 Posts: 1,915 171 Photos	I have a pine Tele, and a couple of soft white walnut (not wet completed) that are quite soft, and I begin to like the weight. For me, it's not worst than playing an acoustic guitar because the wood of acoustic is also soft. Gilles __________________ Back to practice now...to make my Teles sound good. Last edited by gtech : June 15th, 2007 at 04:24 PM.

June 15th, 2007, 03:57 PM	#16 (permalink)
messhead TDPRI Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 92	Love my Pine Esquire. Light, looks good, plays and sounds great. BUT, just like everyone here has said, it takes next to nothing to ding it up.

June 15th, 2007, 08:34 PM	#20 (permalink)
Vegasrock Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 149 36 Photos	I put a coat of wood hardener on my pine bodies during prep and it really does wonders.

June 15th, 2007, 10:19 PM	#23 (permalink)
boris bubbanov Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: New Orleans, LA + in the past Posts: 5,907	Find some vintage pine boards I've got some one by six tongue and groove boards in my attic, sixty-five years of drying, straight true dense and dry. Gonna use most of it to redo the one oak floored room that blew up bad in six feet of muddy water that was Katrina. Oak floor is (was) attached to the diagonal subfloor ( more of that same ol pine) with cut nails, if you can imagine. I may wrangle up some of the prettiest pieces and laminate up a tele body or two. I am concerned the wood may be too brittle and suffer tear out and splintering, so I may have to soak the pieces in some form of conditioner for a year or so. This stuff is very hard and probably won't dent easily. It may also sound like manure, one never knows. Bubbanov

June 16th, 2007, 08:09 AM	#25 (permalink)
Doug 54 Tele-Holic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ohio, Dayton area Posts: 603	How are the Glendale/Poe bodies?? __________________ Bikini Atoll Tests: A Thong Gone Wrong...