Dropping 4 piece band to 3 piece

kendog · July 29th, 2003, 10:31 AM

We recently lost our keyboard/rhythm guitar/main singer. No small loss as you might guess. However, we still want to continue with the bass,drums,tele set-up as a 3 piece band. Any suggestions for the lone tele player to help fill the space? Also, song choices that work well for 3 piece. Thanks for the consideration.

Rick J · July 29th, 2003, 11:29 AM

I worked as trio for some years with just me on guitar and vocals, bass and drums. Bass player helped out with BV's and so did the drummer occasionally. The repertoire was a collection of country classics, (Jim Reeves, Don Williams, etc.) and a load of 60's and 70's chart stuff.

The big point is that for the guitar player, you are now in a totally new setting. You can't play straight chords for rhythm all the time, it sounds too boring, - but you can't also break into lots of single string soloing too much, - you'll have no harmonic background, unless your bass man is being very inventive.

So I taught myself a whole new style, - I call it "posh rhythm" . All it means is trying to find inversions and rhythm parts with a bit of movement and relevance to the song itself. For covers, listen to the riffs played on the records by keyboards or brass sections, and see if you can come up with something that copies, or just suggests, those riffs from a chordal base. Its quite fun to do, and much easier than you'd think. Use more "connecting runs" on the lower strings and passing chords when changing chords, to keep the interest. For solos, think "double stop" and play simpler, more melodic, stuff trying wherever you can to use more than one string, or partial chords, even if it is just every third or fourth note, to stay in the harmonic (chord) ball-park. You bass player will also now have to think more of where he fits, and this will be fun for him too.

And this way you can operate as a three piece, be much more flexible in what you do, and, don't forget, you only now split gig-money three ways instead of four!

Good luck, let us know how you get on.

Rick J.

Blaster · July 29th, 2003, 11:36 AM

I do think that you have to rethink the way you play and so does the bass and drummer.

I played in a 3 piece band for years and even though it was tougher to make it work, it sure paid better.

bo · July 29th, 2003, 11:44 AM

Ken, yer a Kirchen fan! You've seen how it's done! There's a Brit guitarist named Mick Green who played with Johnny Kidd & The Pirates (who reformed in the mid '70s as simply the Pirates long after Johnny died in a car accident). He wrote the book on making one guitar sound like two. While his stuff may be a little on the raw side for yer tastes, listen to his deft use of drone strings (open or otherwise) combined with partial chords, and his use of rhythmic devices as leads (as well as his tightly orchestrated arrangements). I've found his techniques useful in a variety of trio situations. :D

porklash · July 29th, 2003, 12:05 PM

Mick Green yeah!
And then of course you got Wilko Johnson!
He "stole" Mick Green´s "inventions" and took it a step further..?

Look here: http://<a href="http://homepage1.nif....htm</a><br />

Maybe it can give you an idea of what you can do...

And remember to be a guitarist in a trio is, at least according to me, nothing but a great freedom.
No one will get in your way and you won´t get in anyones way.

Let the bassplayer "stretch out" during solos!

pEr

T-Joe · July 29th, 2003, 12:29 PM

When my blues band lost a member (lead singer/guitar) we had to change styles to rockabilly. It just seemed that the rhythmic nature of rockabilly lends itself well to a three piece configuration. Blues songs and even classic rock seem to be, I guess for lack of a better term more melodic whereas rockabilly is more of a rhythm thing. This worked well for us as we all liked that style anyway. Good luck discovering your new style Kendog and welcome to TDPRI.

Joel Terry · July 29th, 2003, 12:31 PM

Great responses in this thread, fellas.

Trios? I love 'em! Virtually all of my influences were/are trios: King's X, The Jimi Hendrix Experience, The Police, ZZ Top, Stevie Ray Vaughan and Double Trouble (trio on first two albums), Bill Frisell (usually with a guest bassist and drummer), countless piano/bass/drum jazz combos like the Bill Evans Trio--and yes, Rush.

Most every band I've been in has been a trio, so I've learned to be a "fuller-sounding" guitarist than I normally would have in bands with more members. Naturally, I've always learned a lot from listening to guitarists/pianists in trios, so much so that I tend to compose my music largely for guitar or keyboard with bass and drums. So here's a bit of advice perhaps you can use:

1. Study the styles of Jimi Hendrix, Tal Farlow, and Lenny Breau, just to name a few players off the top of my head for starters, no matter the genre of music you play. Why these players? Because each maximized the use of his chording/fretting hand. (In particular, get familiar with Jimi's "Little Wing," if you're not already--"Little Wing" is a tour de force and great case study how one guitarist can sound like two or even three guitarists at once. Actually, the same can be said for most all of Jimi's performances.)

By maximizing your chording/fretting hand, I mean doing things like playing extended chords and partials, as well as doing things like using your thumb to help extend chords and to add bass notes so that the bassist can play harmony runs, or so that you can play bass harmony runs with the bassist. Remember what your guitar teacher told you about "keeping your thumb strictly behind the neck," so you can toss it right out and start wrapping that erstwhile goldbricking thumb around the neck---your thumb can be your best friend, and can go a long way in helping to fill in for a fourth member, believe it or not.

2. Involve your bassist as more of a "rhythm guitarist." Have him/her play more melodic lines, perhaps even chords or partials at times. This helps give you a platform for solos and fills, and thickens the overall sound.

3. If you solo, solo with lots of chords, partials, double stops (two notes played simultaneously, usually harmonizing) or triple stops (three notes played simultaneously). This tends to thicken your sound.

4. Don't be afraid of places in your music that sound thin or "empty." As has been said many times over by many wise musicians, sometimes the best notes are the ones not played.

Just listen to notable guitarists and pianists in trios, as well as their bandmates...listen to how they all complement and fill in for each other. Playing in a trio is a discipline unto itself, to say the least; nevertheless, it can be a fun and challenging discipline.

Joel :)

kendog · July 29th, 2003, 01:18 PM

All good ideas. thanks, all. I'm really kind of looking forward to the challenge. We had gotten to where the show was the same for years and probably needed a kick in the butt.

Kevin · July 29th, 2003, 02:22 PM

And don't forget the Who... Your bass player won't be able to play straight bass lines, anymore. He's gonna have to fill some space -- especially when you solo.

MandyMarie · July 29th, 2003, 03:46 PM

My husband's band recently went to a trio, with Danny singing and playing guitar.

I think the first thing is - you have to have a good bass player and drummer to pull it off. If you're bass player and drummer can "lock" in together but still keep it interesting, you're already half way there.

Concentrate on keeping your solos full and rhythmic (... is that a word?).

The other guitar player who was in Danny's band had a jazz background and he was one heck of a player where as Danny has a punk rock background and is much more of a Chuck Berry than a Wes Montgomery - with the other guy gone there's much more energy and it's easier to focus on the crazy sounds of that double bass and Danny's voice! You gain something for everything you lose by going three piece IMO.

Good luck with it and keep us posted, I'll be curious to know how you like it :D

curtisstetka · July 29th, 2003, 03:59 PM

Dare I suggest you look into getting a looping effect?

I no longer have it but I used to play in my trio with a Boomerang. Used sparingly, it was great for adding an extra guitar voice occasionally.

My band actually does an all original musical comedy show. We did one song where the bass player used the Force to strangle me from across the stage. I hit the ground and remained there for the rest of the song but the guitar part kept coming from the Boomerang. It was hysterical!

Loopers are always a big hit with the audience for some reason. They seem to dig it when you're playing something, suddenly let go of the guitar, and yet there's still sound coming out!

tweedman · July 29th, 2003, 05:23 PM

With the right bass player and drummer you can play about any style of music as a Texas Trio.Other than a few exceptions I have seen Bugs Henderson perform for the last 15 years as a Trio.He plays rock,blues,country,surf,ect. and pulls it off very well.Your bass player and drummer can play SOME of the fills and you can do the others.I agree that sometimes no playing is the best playing [The James Burton school of guitar]

boogaloo · July 29th, 2003, 05:47 PM

will certainly make a difference. All these suggestions are great and spot on. I didn't see one of my favorite trios mentioned (No- not the Kingston Trio

) but Cream, as in Clapton, Baker and (who was the bass player!? I'm having a senior moment here and I'm not a senior) Bruce???

Skydog · July 29th, 2003, 06:52 PM

How I've always done it ..(annoying if there's more than one guitar) ..folk, country, rock or metal.

July 29th, 2003, 10:31 AM	#1 (permalink)
kendog TDPRI Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 51	Dropping 4 piece band to 3 piece We recently lost our keyboard/rhythm guitar/main singer. No small loss as you might guess. However, we still want to continue with the bass,drums,tele set-up as a 3 piece band. Any suggestions for the lone tele player to help fill the space? Also, song choices that work well for 3 piece. Thanks for the consideration.

July 29th, 2003, 11:29 AM	#2 (permalink)
Rick J Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: North London, UK Posts: 468	3 piece bands I worked as trio for some years with just me on guitar and vocals, bass and drums. Bass player helped out with BV's and so did the drummer occasionally. The repertoire was a collection of country classics, (Jim Reeves, Don Williams, etc.) and a load of 60's and 70's chart stuff. The big point is that for the guitar player, you are now in a totally new setting. You can't play straight chords for rhythm all the time, it sounds too boring, - but you can't also break into lots of single string soloing too much, - you'll have no harmonic background, unless your bass man is being very inventive. So I taught myself a whole new style, - I call it "posh rhythm" . All it means is trying to find inversions and rhythm parts with a bit of movement and relevance to the song itself. For covers, listen to the riffs played on the records by keyboards or brass sections, and see if you can come up with something that copies, or just suggests, those riffs from a chordal base. Its quite fun to do, and much easier than you'd think. Use more "connecting runs" on the lower strings and passing chords when changing chords, to keep the interest. For solos, think "double stop" and play simpler, more melodic, stuff trying wherever you can to use more than one string, or partial chords, even if it is just every third or fourth note, to stay in the harmonic (chord) ball-park. You bass player will also now have to think more of where he fits, and this will be fun for him too. And this way you can operate as a three piece, be much more flexible in what you do, and, don't forget, you only now split gig-money three ways instead of four! Good luck, let us know how you get on. Rick J.

July 29th, 2003, 11:36 AM	#3 (permalink)
Blaster Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Down in Western Colorado Age: 51 Posts: 423	I agree with Rick I do think that you have to rethink the way you play and so does the bass and drummer. I played in a 3 piece band for years and even though it was tougher to make it work, it sure paid better.

July 29th, 2003, 12:05 PM	#5 (permalink)
porklash Tele-Meister Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Sollefteå Sweden Posts: 236	Mick Green yeah! And then of course you got Wilko Johnson! He "stole" Mick Green´s "inventions" and took it a step further..? Look here: http://<a href="http://homepage1.nif....htm</a><br /> Maybe it can give you an idea of what you can do... And remember to be a guitarist in a trio is, at least according to me, nothing but a great freedom. No one will get in your way and you won´t get in anyones way. Let the bassplayer "stretch out" during solos! pEr __________________ Slicing eardrums...

July 29th, 2003, 12:29 PM	#6 (permalink)
T-Joe Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Whidbey Island,WA Posts: 190	3 piece When my blues band lost a member (lead singer/guitar) we had to change styles to rockabilly. It just seemed that the rhythmic nature of rockabilly lends itself well to a three piece configuration. Blues songs and even classic rock seem to be, I guess for lack of a better term more melodic whereas rockabilly is more of a rhythm thing. This worked well for us as we all liked that style anyway. Good luck discovering your new style Kendog and welcome to TDPRI. __________________ Cheers from Beer Lake, T-Joe

July 29th, 2003, 11:44 AM	#4 (permalink)
bo Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 1,766	Ken, yer a Kirchen fan! You've seen how it's done! There's a Brit guitarist named Mick Green who played with Johnny Kidd & The Pirates (who reformed in the mid '70s as simply the Pirates long after Johnny died in a car accident). He wrote the book on making one guitar sound like two. While his stuff may be a little on the raw side for yer tastes, listen to his deft use of drone strings (open or otherwise) combined with partial chords, and his use of rhythmic devices as leads (as well as his tightly orchestrated arrangements). I've found his techniques useful in a variety of trio situations. :D

July 29th, 2003, 12:31 PM	#7 (permalink)
Joel Terry Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Old Hickory (Nashville), Tennessee, USA Age: 40 Posts: 4,405 17 Photos	Ah, yes--the TRIO! Great responses in this thread, fellas. Trios? I love 'em! Virtually all of my influences were/are trios: King's X, The Jimi Hendrix Experience, The Police, ZZ Top, Stevie Ray Vaughan and Double Trouble (trio on first two albums), Bill Frisell (usually with a guest bassist and drummer), countless piano/bass/drum jazz combos like the Bill Evans Trio--and yes, Rush. Most every band I've been in has been a trio, so I've learned to be a "fuller-sounding" guitarist than I normally would have in bands with more members. Naturally, I've always learned a lot from listening to guitarists/pianists in trios, so much so that I tend to compose my music largely for guitar or keyboard with bass and drums. So here's a bit of advice perhaps you can use: 1. Study the styles of Jimi Hendrix, Tal Farlow, and Lenny Breau, just to name a few players off the top of my head for starters, no matter the genre of music you play. Why these players? Because each maximized the use of his chording/fretting hand. (In particular, get familiar with Jimi's "Little Wing," if you're not already--"Little Wing" is a tour de force and great case study how one guitarist can sound like two or even three guitarists at once. Actually, the same can be said for most all of Jimi's performances.) By maximizing your chording/fretting hand, I mean doing things like playing extended chords and partials, as well as doing things like using your thumb to help extend chords and to add bass notes so that the bassist can play harmony runs, or so that you can play bass harmony runs with the bassist. Remember what your guitar teacher told you about "keeping your thumb strictly behind the neck," so you can toss it right out and start wrapping that erstwhile goldbricking thumb around the neck---your thumb can be your best friend, and can go a long way in helping to fill in for a fourth member, believe it or not. 2. Involve your bassist as more of a "rhythm guitarist." Have him/her play more melodic lines, perhaps even chords or partials at times. This helps give you a platform for solos and fills, and thickens the overall sound. 3. If you solo, solo with lots of chords, partials, double stops (two notes played simultaneously, usually harmonizing) or triple stops (three notes played simultaneously). This tends to thicken your sound. 4. Don't be afraid of places in your music that sound thin or "empty." As has been said many times over by many wise musicians, sometimes the best notes are the ones not played. Just listen to notable guitarists and pianists in trios, as well as their bandmates...listen to how they all complement and fill in for each other. Playing in a trio is a discipline unto itself, to say the least; nevertheless, it can be a fun and challenging discipline. Joel :) __________________ Jesus saves--and He passes the savings on to YOU! ASPCA "Well...."

July 29th, 2003, 01:18 PM	#8 (permalink)
kendog TDPRI Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 51	Great Ideas All good ideas. thanks, all. I'm really kind of looking forward to the challenge. We had gotten to where the show was the same for years and probably needed a kick in the butt.

July 29th, 2003, 02:22 PM	#9 (permalink)
Kevin Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Terre Haute, IN Posts: 2,967	And don't forget the Who... Your bass player won't be able to play straight bass lines, anymore. He's gonna have to fill some space -- especially when you solo.

July 29th, 2003, 03:46 PM	#10 (permalink)
MandyMarie Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Indianapolis, IN Age: 28 Posts: 2,516 65 Photos	My husband's band recently went to a trio, with Danny singing and playing guitar. I think the first thing is - you have to have a good bass player and drummer to pull it off. If you're bass player and drummer can "lock" in together but still keep it interesting, you're already half way there. Concentrate on keeping your solos full and rhythmic (... is that a word?). The other guitar player who was in Danny's band had a jazz background and he was one heck of a player where as Danny has a punk rock background and is much more of a Chuck Berry than a Wes Montgomery - with the other guy gone there's much more energy and it's easier to focus on the crazy sounds of that double bass and Danny's voice! You gain something for everything you lose by going three piece IMO. Good luck with it and keep us posted, I'll be curious to know how you like it :D

July 29th, 2003, 03:59 PM	#11 (permalink)
curtisstetka TDPRI Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Allentown PA Posts: 73	Dare I suggest you look into getting a looping effect? I no longer have it but I used to play in my trio with a Boomerang. Used sparingly, it was great for adding an extra guitar voice occasionally. My band actually does an all original musical comedy show. We did one song where the bass player used the Force to strangle me from across the stage. I hit the ground and remained there for the rest of the song but the guitar part kept coming from the Boomerang. It was hysterical! Loopers are always a big hit with the audience for some reason. They seem to dig it when you're playing something, suddenly let go of the guitar, and yet there's still sound coming out!

July 29th, 2003, 05:23 PM	#12 (permalink)
tweedman Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 414	With the right bass player and drummer you can play about any style of music as a Texas Trio.Other than a few exceptions I have seen Bugs Henderson perform for the last 15 years as a Trio.He plays rock,blues,country,surf,ect. and pulls it off very well.Your bass player and drummer can play SOME of the fills and you can do the others.I agree that sometimes no playing is the best playing [The James Burton school of guitar]

July 29th, 2003, 05:47 PM	#13 (permalink)
boogaloo Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: S/E Pa. Age: 52 Posts: 1,129	What Kind of Music You Play will certainly make a difference. All these suggestions are great and spot on. I didn't see one of my favorite trios mentioned (No- not the Kingston Trio ) but Cream, as in Clapton, Baker and (who was the bass player!? I'm having a senior moment here and I'm not a senior) Bruce??? __________________ "..and I've got some tricks up my sleeve...oh yes indeed! It might come back to haunt 'cha..don't you throw that Mojo on me!"

July 29th, 2003, 06:52 PM	#14 (permalink)
Skydog Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 371	Three-piece, much better . . How I've always done it ..(annoying if there's more than one guitar) ..folk, country, rock or metal.