A good shellac'in!

I have USACG maple/maple neck on the way. I have decided to use a amber tinted shellac from Zinsser and a bit of trans-tint to shade it a bit. This idea came to me after being unhappy with my sprayed nitro neck project, and asking a highly regarded luthier what he does on his necks?

Has anyone got experience using the the Zinsser amber shellac and using a french polish technique. How long did it take you, how many coats, what is the shade of amber like?

[Twangbanger]

Just be careful. Remember, shellac's solvent is alcohol. Spilling beer or alcohol drinks on the neck may cause a mess.

But that sort of thing doesn't happen everyday, unless your playing in a German polka festival, where they are constantly bringing beer to the band on stage. I've expereinced this. :D
Good thing the finish is nitro. My amp does have shellac on the tweed, but I don't set things on it.

[txspreacher]

Originally Posted by ttrog2000

I have USACG maple/maple neck on the way. I have decided to use a amber tinted shellac from Zinsser and a bit of trans-tint to shade it a bit. This idea came to me after being unhappy with my sprayed nitro neck project, and asking a highly regarded luthier what he does on his necks?

Has anyone got experience using the the Zinsser amber shellac and using a french polish technique. How long did it take you, how many coats, what is the shade of amber like?

I didn't French polish mine, unless it was by accident. I've heard the term, but I really don't know what it is...

Anyway, it is alcohol based and thus is thinned with denatured alcohol. Cut it according to the directions on the can, apply it with a rag, thinly. I had mine done in just about three or four coats. You can reacoat approx. every hour or so with this. I steel wooled it a bit (probably should have more) on the last few and put two coats of Tung-oil over it. I did it without cutting at first and it was spotty.

Also, I tried to wipe this on the fretboard twice, and it was no go. The stuff would puddle up and "stack" around the frets and look terrible. the good thing is when this happened, cleanup/off with alcohol and try again.

I ended up spraying the shellac on the fretboard using this little jewel :

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishin...al_Spray_Unit.

[tlw]

I fininished three necks using shellac undercoats and Tru-oil topcoats. I used Zinnser amber shellac to tint the neck and Tru-oil to add protection to the neck. I never liked how nitro and poly fininished necks tend to feel sticky, especially on warm humid days. I was trying to get the feel of natural or oiled necks but with a little better protection. The amber shellac gives a nice tinting to the neck, and does protect the neck. However, shellac does not protect against alcohol at all, and does not provide the best protection against water. That is why I added the Tru-oil topcoat, to protect against alcohol and water. I am not sure why, but shellac and oil do not seem to change the feel of the neck. It retains that natural finish feel.

For the shellac I used amber shellac. For the first two coats I thinned the shellac to a 1 lb cut (directions should be on the can). For subsequent coats I used shellac thinned to a 2 lb cut. I used 2-4 coats of 2 lb cut shellac until I got the desired darkness of tint. I sprayed the shellac coats to avoid the puddling problems around the frets that txspreacher talked about. If you are doing a neck with a rosewood fretboard, then you could do a wipe on shellac fininsh.

Next I put on two coats of Birchwood-Casey Tru-oil. I put these coats on by wiping them on with a rag, as per directions. I figured that Tru-oil would give a more long lasting finish then regular oil, because it is a polymerized oil. However, it does leave more of a natural feel, like a regular oil.

Overall, I am very happy with the necks. The tinting came out perfect (at least to my eyes). The necks feel great, a nice natural wood feel to them. Only time will tell how well the finish holds up. The nice thing about shellac and oil is that it is easy to reapply the finish if it needs it sometime in the future.

[jwells393]

How about someone posting some good closeup pictures of these shellac finished necks ..............

Doesn't the shellac seal the wood? If so, I don't see how putting the Tru-oil really does much good. Thought the whole idea was for the Tru-oil to penetrate the wood. .............. but then ............. what do I know.

Thanks everyone for you ideas on applying shellac. I would find it very helpful to see some finished shellace necks.

You guys mentioned spraying it on, but I have not seen the Zinsser Amber in an aerosol can at any stores. The fretboard is maple so I am nervous about applying anything with a rag to it. I will see if I can find a spraycan of the amber shellac, but then how would I 'cut' it with alcohol?

[jwells393]

Preval Spray Unit

[txspreacher]

Originally Posted by jwells393

Preval Spray Unit

Yep. That's the same thing I posted a link to above. A MUST for the maple fretboard, IMHO. You will want to rub the back of the neck instead of spraying.

Jack, as far as I know, you are absolutely right about the shellac sealing. I went a different (not necessarily better or worse) route than tlw and used Tung-oil instead of Tru-oil. I rubbed it in (on) hard and wiped off any excess. I did this twice, 24 hrs apart. I wasn't trying to penetrate, just apply a barrier for the shellac against the aforementioned water/alcohol, etc. It came out pretty nice (I rushed things a little too much, I should have steel wooled and done one more coat) and maintained the hand-rubbed feel.

My next neck, I'm doing the spray nitro for comparison's sake. A few pics of my shellaced neck :

[tlw]

To jwells393 : The purpose of the Tru-oil was to give alcohol/water protection that shellac does not give.

To Ttrog2000 : I used a spray gun to spray on the shellac. I was spray painting bodies at the time, so I had all the spray equipment available. I have just started to experiment with the PreVal sprayer. I have heard it works great.

I will try to get pictures of the necks later today or tomorrow.

[jwells393]

txpreacher,
I wasn't trying to steal your thunder but your link above didn't work for me. Thanks for the pictures ......... that looks good.

Here's the point I'm trying to make about the Tru-oil or tung oil on top of shellac. I'm not sure it's really adding protection if it can't penetrate. You rub it on ....... you rub it off. Does it actually leave a protective layer? Does it bond to the shellac. Have either of you tested it by dripping alcohol on it ............. on a scrap piece of course? I may do that experiment myself.

I'd really like to find an alternative to ReRanch Butterscotch for neck tinting. I've just recently received the new Stew-Mac refinish book by Dan Erlewine. Hopefully it holds the answer.

Thanks for all the great comments so far. My last neck was also done in ReRanch butterscotch and nitro. I was not crazy about it. Seems too dramatic too me, something more subtle on the maple would be nice.

So I am hearing that putting the amber shellac in the sprayer and doing the fretboard is the way to go. The use a cloth to apply to the back of the neck.

How much 'steel wooling' to you guys recommend between coats? I really want it smooth as a babies bottom. Any rough spots will be a failure for me.

This is my 4th neck refin and want to get it right, finally.

[txspreacher]

Originally Posted by jwells393

txpreacher,
I wasn't trying to steal your thunder but your link above didn't work for me.

I didn't take it that way at all, hoss.

Thanks for the pictures ......... that looks good.

*Elvis voice* Thankya vera much....comin' from you...th-th-that really means alot...

Here's the point I'm trying to make about the Tru-oil or tung oil on top of shellac. I'm not sure it's really adding protection if it can't penetrate. You rub it on ....... you rub it off. Does it actually leave a protective layer? Does it bond to the shellac.

All I can say is, it looks different after applying the Tung-oil, so something changed. I don't feel that it's a rock-hard, bullet-proof finish, but are any of them? Most of playing is done at the house without buckets of sweat drenching my guitar, so it's hard to say how "road worthy" this finish is. But, so far it's holding up well to home use.

Have either of you tested it by dripping alcohol on it ............. on a scrap piece of course? I may do that experiment myself.

That's a great idea. I'll try to make some time for it this week.

I'd really like to find an alternative to ReRanch Butterscotch for neck tinting. I've just recently received the new Stew-Mac refinish book by Dan Erlewine. Hopefully it holds the answer.

Let me know when you find it!

[jwells393]

Butterscotch too dramatic ................. want something more subtle .................. back away when you spray...........light mist coats can make it as subtle as you like.

[Rufus]

If the butterscotch nitro is too dark, why not try the Reranch aerosol Neck Amber. I believe that's what Bill recommends anyway. (You WILL have to clear coat Neck Amber, as its a dye in solution and there is no lacquer mixed with it. I really like the Satin Clear on top of the Neck Amber, vs. the clear gloss nitro. It doesn't feel as sticky as gloss nitro, but maybe that's just me.)

It seems many of those who use butterrscotch for the neck do so because they can't seem to get the neck amber dark enough for their liking. The neck amber can go from very subtle to pretty dark - just vary the number of coats. I had no trouble getting it rather darker than average.

I think Reranch products are superb. Just my 2 cents...

[tlw]

The reason that Tru-oil adds protection over shellac is that it is a polymerized oil. Polymerized oils actually harden on the surface and provides a barrier, rather than protecting wood by soaking into the wood.

If you really want to go nuts understanding wood fininishing (as I did, I tend to obsess about my projects), check out the book "Understanding Wood Finishing" by Bob Flexner. It is a great book for getting ideas for non-traditional guitar finishing, and for understanding your options on traditional guitar finishing (the steps listed by the Stewmac book are different than the steps listed by reranch).

[jwells393]

Just my opinion from personal experience but I think the ReRanch Neck Amber is crap. It is extremely yellow plus you have to intermix coats of Neck Amber with lacquer coats since it contains no lacquer. By the time you finally get rid of the awful yellow you have yourself a pretty dark amber.

[MainStreetExile]

Great topic and lots of good information.

Would shellac alone darken a swamp ash body or would I have to add a wood dye to get a slightly-darker-than-natural finish? I was thinking about starting with grain filler, use sand sealer, then shellac x2-4 coats, then nitro clear coat. I have little experience with finishing and don't particularly care about getting a "perfect" finish, just one that looks more vintage than a brand new swamp ash body and protects the wood.

[fullerplast]

Originally Posted by MainStreetExile

Would shellac alone darken a swamp ash body or would I have to add a wood dye to get a slightly-darker-than-natural finish? I was thinking about starting with grain filler, use sand sealer, then shellac x2-4 coats, then nitro clear coat. I have little experience with finishing and don't particularly care about getting a "perfect" finish, just one that looks more vintage than a brand new swamp ash body and protects the wood.

Amber shellac is perfect for doing this. I just finished a pine tele with shellac/nitro and it came out with a great "aged" finish IMHO. You can thin out the shellac to whatever level of tint you want.

I think your idea is an excellent one. Just make sure you sand out the grain filler so that it follows the grain without blotches. You could also do the filler with a dark tint after the shellac....a more dramatic effect if you have good grain.

[MainStreetExile]

Thanks Fuller. Yes, I would sand in between coats.

Is amber shellac available off the shelf or would I have to add it to my own shellac mixture? If I have to add it, what are some good sources for amber dye? I don't want this to be too dark or too gold/orange.

[tlw]

Amber shellac is available at most hardware stores. If you want more choices of shellac, check out this link:
http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/shellac3.htm

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by jwells393

Just my opinion from personal experience but I think the ReRanch Neck Amber is crap. It is extremely yellow plus you have to intermix coats of Neck Amber with lacquer coats since it contains no lacquer. By the time you finally get rid of the awful yellow you have yourself a pretty dark amber.

Just a friendly comment... for clarification;

From your comments about the perceived yellowness of the neck amber...wouldn't it be more appropriate (and fair) to say that you don't like the color? "Awful yellow" to one person may be exactly what another person is looking for. To each his own...but

Saying that its "crap " implies a quality problem- I don't think that was what you meant about the Reranch product in general, was it?

There's a difference between not caring for a color and thinking that something is crap. There have been several comments about the low quality and softness of Deft and Stew Mac nitro lacquers. (If its true) - that kind of thing fits more in line of what I consider true crap.

If you didn't have a good experience with it, that's fine, we all have different opinions. If I read that someone doesn't like a color, I take it with a grain of salt. If I read that something is crap, I take that a whole lot more seriously. And I would definitely think twice about buying products that someone has labelled as such.

Just wondering...you thought that neck amber was more yellow than butterscotch ?


Its great to have such a plethora of choices to discuss.

[jwells393]

If I buy a product described as "Fender Neck Amber" and it is yellow, I think it has been misrepresented. I have a few Fender guitars and none of them have yellow necks. I tried the Fender Neck Amber once and was never able to get it to match any of my Fender necks. Like I mentioned above, if you do many applications of the Neck Amber intermixed with clear, the yellow goes away but by then you've achieved a rather dark amber and you've spent a lot of time getting to that point. With the Butterscotch, a few light coats and you're ready to clear coat.

I'm not the only one in this forum that has had similar experience with the Fender Neck Amber.

[Bob Rogers]

If you are going to use the canned shellac from the hardware store, make sure it is fresh. Ask if they have good turnover. Old shellac will not cure well. Put a drop on a piece of glass and let it dry overnight. Should be hard. The real furniture finishing fanatics insist on shellac flakes. (See the homestead link above.)

[txspreacher]

Originally Posted by Bob Rogers

If you are going to use the canned shellac from the hardware store, make sure it is fresh. Ask if they have good turnover. Old shellac will not cure well. Put a drop on a piece of glass and let it dry overnight. Should be hard. The real furniture finishing fanatics insist on shellac flakes. (See the homestead link above.)

All of what Bob speaks is true. The Home Depot in my hometown seems to rotate out of this pretty often. Furniture is one thing....but on a guitar neck, I don't know if the flakes will make that much difference. However, I believe the flakes are used by many luthiers on acoustic bodies.