Nacho, Beland, and re-creating the Blackguard experience

[loudfast]

Happy new year to everyone, first of all. Being new around here, I would not be surprised if this topic has come up before, but doing a search on the keywords yielded an avalanche of stuff not really related, so...

I've been amazed by Nacho's fantastic "Blackguard" book, and having written a few titles myself out of love for a topic I know how hard it can be, and how hard you can push yourself to make sure nothing is left out - what a fantastic job you've done, Nacho!

Anyway, in the book's forewords John Beland makes an interesting and perceptive statement, and I saw that Nacho referred to it elsewhere in another message thread here. It's this one:

>>>>>>" I currently have a fabulous 2000 Fender 52 Special with a Pasrons-White B-bender. However I do prefer playing a 50s tele. They just feel better. But prices have gone up so much nowadays that most vintage stuff is not affordable for the working musician. As a pro musician that appreciates a good instrument for a fair price, I think this is all hype and ignorance on the part of fools that would pay enormous amounts of money for an old guitar. Too bad, because young players coming up will never know the thrill of owning and playing a 50s tele onstage and experiencing what I felt when I bought my first one. Time changes everything I guess, especially common sense."
<<<<<<<

So my question is, what offers today's player a comparable guitar experience, short of dropping $20K+? I know there are instruments like the DeTemple and Anderson that are super high-quality, exacting guitars - but obviously it's true that the original Blackguards were built under quite different circumstances, under conditions that were not so "lab-like" as those today's top builders use. So, does anything equate to this amazing original run of guitars? I'm not so much asking, "What's a good guitar out there?" as obviously there are many great choices these days. But I mean in the context of specifically the formative days of the Telecaster realm and what made them special. I'm just curious to see what comments everyone might have. Cheers!

[David Barnett]

I don't think there's any substitute for age. Old wood just feels better and resonates differently than new product. To my hands, old wood is where the mojo lives. I also think that's one reason why the un-loved '70s Teles and Strats are starting to fetch silly prices, the wood has finally aged enough to give these guitars some character.

So, to answer your question, the best way to duplicate the blackguard experience for a younger player or working musician, is to find an old guitar that hasn't appreciated in value quite so much. That doesn't leave much for the Fender guys, a Musicmaster or Duo-Sonic is no substitute for a Tele or Strat. But there are some nice Harmony hollow-bodies or Gibson Melody Makers that aren't getting stupid prices (yet) that will give a player the "old wood" experience.

[Brewboy]

Seeing these 50's teles going for large sums of money makes me wonder how many are just clunkers? I'm sure many are great players, but I'd hate to spend 25k + and find myself with a lousy guitar(of course, if I spent that much I would play it first :D ).
I would LOVE to have a old tele, but I'm quite happy with my 50's classic Esquire until I win the lottery.

[Bones]

I think a young player has the opportunity to buy a high quality new or recent used AVRI tele or strat or a custom shop piece for a reasonable price and put his own "mojo" on it over the next 25 years. The real problem is for us middle-aged home players who finally have the time to get back into playing, but we can't quite afford or justify the crazy prices and we don't have 25 years to get the mojo going on a new one.

[TDPRI]

This is why I bought a '69 Tele about 6 years ago. It was the oldest Tele I could afford right then. Yes, it's probably doubled in value since then. But old feels better than any new guitar. Even a new guitar made to look and feel old.

I'd recommend the same for anyone. Buy the oldest Tele you can afford today (providing it feels good to you). Because tomorrow you'll not be able to afford it.

Paul Green
PS. My '69 is a great guitar and cost me a still affordable $1,900 in 1999.

[BrianF]

I don't think there's any substitute for age. Old wood just feels better and resonates differently than new product. To my hands, old wood is where the mojo lives.

Not so sure about "old wood". I'll agree that 'now' those guitars are old and would be neat to play just because of the antiquity/historical nature....But in their day...in the 50's and 60's (when our heroes were playing them)....they were 'new wood'.

Does that make them any better than the (quality) Tele's being made today? I kind of doubt it.

[flyingb54]

I'm a very basic guitar player, not a tech wiz. Hell, I couldn't tell one brand of pick up from the other, for the most part. But I've done ok with what I do know...The reason I favored and always played pre-CBS Tele's during my career was for one reason, the wood. For me, the neat sound of a Tele comes from the wood in the neck. I hate all that laquer crap that covered all those post CBS Tele's. UGH!! None of us in LA liked it and thats why the majority of us played pre-CBS.

Having said all that, I have to confess that I now play the best damned Tele I ever owned..a new Mexican Vintage Tele with a fat neck, with a Bill Bores B-Bender on it. It's simply fantastic and I wouldn't get rid of it for all the pre CBS Tele's on Ebay.

So far I've used it in the studio on a session for a band from Colorado I produced called Triple Nickel. I broke in the new Tele on their CD and wow, it performed and recorded beyond my expectations.

So as far as Im concerned, if you fork over more than $3,000.00 for a Tele in the hopes of achieving that PERFECT tele sound, you're nuts. I truly believe we are living in in Golden Age of Fender....so guys, take advantage of it cause there are affordable great Telecasters coming off the line that beat the hell out of anything previous. I'm serious.
Thats my take, anyway.
Hey...HAPPY NEW YEAR my fellow Tele lunatics!
John Beland
www.johnbeland.com

[BrianF]

hate all that laquer crap that covered all those post CBS Tele's. UGH!! None of us in LA liked it and thats why the majority of us played pre-CBS.

Having said all that, I have to confess that I now play the best damned Tele I ever owned..a new Mexican Vintage Tele with a fat neck, with a Bill Bores B-Bender on it. It's simply fantastic and I wouldn't get rid of it for all the pre CBS Tele's on Ebay.

Hi John...As you know I have an identical MIM B Bender Tele to your new one... I'm curious though about your comment about he lacquer crap...since the MIM Tele's that we both have are covered with a thick coat of poly. This is not the same as the pre-CBS Tele's right?

[sidneystreet]

Originally Posted by flyingb54

I have to confess that I now play the best damned Tele I ever owned..a new Mexican Vintage Tele... I truly believe we are living in in Golden Age of Fender....so guys, take advantage of it cause there are affordable great Telecasters coming off the line that beat the hell out of anything previous. I'm serious.
Thats my take, anyway.
John Beland

I totally agree. The level of quality of the Mexican reissues is incredible. The same can be said of some of the Fender Japan teles.

It would be very difficult to find a vintage tele that played and sounded better. Add in the inflated vintage prices and fear of theft or damage, and you end up with a guitar that you could hardly take to a gig in good conscience.

[Robert H.]

Guitarists say it over and over---the guitars made today are some of the best anyone has ever seen.
Look at what many of the fine Tele, Strat, LP, etc. players use today. Mostly higher end, available models.
The look, feel, and sound is very fine.
At this point, I'd rather buy a Suhr Tele style beauty for $2000 than a 50's Tele for 15 times that amount.

[Bill]

If you feel that the main sound and feel of a Tele comes from the wood and pickups (as I do), you can buy one that's been refinished, had tuners and knobs, etc. changed. You have to make sure, of course, that you purchase from a very reputable source, as it becomes harder to verify a guitar with lots of changes. But if you can, you can get a great player's Tele that is a fraction of the cost of an all-complete, all-original 50's Tele. Expect to pay between one and two times what a Custom Shop model would cost, depending on the changes.

[AJ Love]

I remain convinced that Telecasters that are every bit as good OR BETTER than 50's Teles can and more importantly are being made today, whether they be by the Fender Custom Shop, Scott Lentz or John Suhr or building a Partscaster with USACG/Brian Poe/boutique pickups etc parts...not every Fender Custom Shop, Scott Lentz or John Suhr Tele is as good as a 50's Tele but some of them are vastly better than a 50's Tele (i.e. there are clunkers from every era)

I don't buy the Old Wood being better theory. It may be a personal preference in feel for some folks, but imho that is all it is, a personal preference... the 50's Telecasters that were really great sounded really great in the 50's and 60's, we have recordings of them to prove it

As a player not a collector the first thing I'd need to do to a Vintage 50's Tele is put in Compensated Saddles, probably get a refret and likely change out the pickups anyways... ;) While it would be fun for me to own a Vintage piece, it is not necessary in my career as a musician

[Johnny Isaacs]

Originally Posted by BrianF

Hi John...As you know I have an identical MIM B Bender Tele to your new one... I'm curious though about your comment about he lacquer crap...since the MIM Tele's that we both have are covered with a thick coat of poly. This is not the same as the pre-CBS Tele's right?

I believe it has to do not only with the quality of the guitar, but the application and use of Poly today vs. in the 70's when a lot of times it was really glooped on thick and uneven. Bill Hullet really liked this guitar too thinking it was a Custom Shop 56 RI.

It's a great guitar! I liked mine so good, I covered it in leather!

Johnny Isaacs

[BrianF]

Maybe there's too much to be made about the finish (as opposed to the tone and playaibility), but the 50's MIM that I have definitely can not be mistaken for a custom shop RI.

There's no comparison in the fit and finish.... unless of course there's variation in the quality and/or if Fender's changed since the one I have was made. I'm a stickler for that kind of detail. The plastic nut on mine was hanging off the edge of the fretboard by about 3/16 of an inch...(as an example).

[nacho]

I totally agree that the vintage thing is mostly not for working musicians, not even refins or the like...If I were a gigging musician 4-5 nights a week, Id get a good partscaster or a nice current fender, maybe upgrade the electronics and some hardware and get away with it. Id never be troubled with a say the least, 10k dollar guitar in the van/bus everynight.
The good thing is most people wouldnt even hear a difference cause it will still be me playing a Tele, vintage or not, through my set up.
But again, I think the vintage thing surpasses these considerations and goes beyond a players utitlity instrument stand point. Vintage instruments are mainly valued as pieces of history and that makes a lot of sense to me. I know this thread started with a question; my answer would be probably get a nice nitro finished current tele model, get some pair of good boutique pickups, maybe upgrade some hardware and wear it out for the next 10-15 years, putting hours and hours of playing in there. I think thatd be the closest way to get to a vintage guitar feel using a current model.
I myself have had a new tele style guitar made lately which is a state of the art instrument and I love it. Most people wont even tell the difference when I use that new guitar or take my old nocaster out, since it will still be me with my amp and my fingers doing the crap I usually do. Or some probably will, I am not sure. Last year we went to see Redd in Barcelona and he used my Broadcaster 0145 during the first set. I was with my friend who doesnt know anythiing about guitars. He was flipping with Redd, (so was I ) ON the second set he got his partscaster out. He was killer anyway. But my friend said to me "he sounded so much better with the other guitar!"..I agreed with him, the Broadcaster sounded larger than life, like heaven in his hands (I swear I never wiped it out after that night but its not the same thing with me nope :( )
Go figure, this may be just personal preferences.
But a vintage guitar is much more than an instrument. The feel you get when you play a great old guitar is just not there when youre using a new one. Some of those guitars are so responsive, they are like people, they have their own character, they interact with you, old wood and electronics, they are unique and they got personality, its a if they had some life in them.
I too really enjoy a great new guitar and I agree nowadays we are getting great guitars made out there, but everytime I take ol 0514 out, is like diving in a pool of warm water, is like a sweet feel, evolving sound, I even feel like a better player, magic!
nb

[ToneFan]

At the risk of beating the proverbial dead horse... (I guess the nature of guitar discussions is to talk about pretty much the same issues over & over)... I've owned an Am 52RI for many years... It's a late '80s model... Well, now it's going on 20 years old... I've played it, and now it's getting that natural relic treatment... The maple neck's got divits in it, it's got the dings, and the area where my arm rests is losing the finish... Now being almost 20 yrs old, it's the equivalent of my having bought a 50's Tele during the '70s... Back during the '70s, players sought out the '50s stuff because it had the old specs everyone wanted, and it had the mojo of being 20 yrs old...

I'll be darned if a used '52RI, that's got some years on it, is not a good bet for someone who wants to get close to the Blackguard experience for a reasonable amount of money... If I was to sell my '52 RI on eBay, which I have no reason to do, I wouldn't expect to get more than $800-900... So, IMHO, there is hope for us non-millionaires...

Joe

[nacho]

that night I was in Redd in Barcelona we spent some good amount of talking between sets. He gave this one advice which I have tried to follow. "the answer is not in your computer, cut the crap, quit some typing time and play yer guitar more often man!"
So I guess any good current guitar will reach that "broken in, old blackguard feel" status after you play it and play it for years.
Now back to playing :D
nb

[flyingb54]

I removed the black pick guard off my Mexican tele and replaced it with a very cool brown hand tooled leather pickguard from ElDorado. geeeez, it looks mighty sweet. Guess I have to say that I now play a "Brown Guard?"
jb
www.johnbeland.com

[Freddy Fender]

This debate will never end. What I see is usually this: the people who don't own a 50's guitar think the new ones are as good or better.

The people who own one think they have a mojo or tone or feel that you just can't get from a new guitar.

In my twenties I owned a 50's Les Paul and a pre CBS strat. I eventually sold them for one reason or another ... over the years I put together parts casters, had other newer guitars etc. but never got that intangible something I had with my two old guitars... and when I finally realized my mistake the vintage prices put most of them out of reach for me.

Now I own John Beland's old '54 and the mojo is back!
I've been offered almost twice what I paid for it and can't bring myself to part with it .. this is simply as a playing instrument. I don't care at all about the history of it or the famous signatures etc. I just like it's sound and soul. I have been trying to get my other Tele partscaster to sound like it but no cigar yet. It definately has nothing to do with the pickups. I'm going to look for an old refinned neck and maybe that will get me there ... I don't know. Anyway, I am in the camp that it is in fact the wood that is key.
The new ones if I had to generalize sound harsher in the top end and don't have the touch sensitivty when playing very soft and just don't sound as pleasing in general.

We all hear and feel things differently, so the standard disclaimer applies. (YMMV). No offence to anyone.

[flyingb54]

Always good to know where she's at these days. I 'will" get her back someday...at least I'm hopin.
It's not that it was such a great guitar, as much as the incredible history behind it. The bbender is one of the very early Parsons-White models. I used to hide chicks phone numbers inside of it (lol)>
The autographs are 90% folks I worked with, playing that very guitar. Not just your usual STAR autographs, but a scrapbook of our journey together.

The neck is great but the frets are now worn. Some of the signatures have faded..the wood is chipped and old...
My point is, thats what makes any Tele, the years and miles you put into it. It killed me to sell it but hey, thats what divorces sometimes do...But if that one guitar could talk, it would keep you all up for days with hundreds of stories and adventures we shared, from the stage and studio with Ricky to a little 16 track studio with an unknown Garth. From onstage at the Troubadour behind Johnny Cash to Carnagie Hall & Arlo. Tons of records, tons of memories. Thats what you put into a Tele and THATS what makes it worth a million dollars....not the year it was made.
Cheers
John B
www.johnbeland.com

[Wild Rice Chris]

Originally Posted by flyingb54

Always good to know where she's at these days. I 'will" get her back someday...at least I'm hopin.
It's not that it was such a great guitar, as much as the incredible history behind it. The bbender is one of the very early Parsons-White models. I used to hide chicks phone numbers inside of it (lol)>
The autographs are 90% folks I worked with, playing that very guitar. Not just your usual STAR autographs, but a scrapbook of our journey together.

The neck is great but the frets are now worn. Some of the signatures have faded..the wood is chipped and old...
My point is, thats what makes any Tele, the years and miles you put into it. It killed me to sell it but hey, thats what divorces sometimes do...But if that one guitar could talk, it would keep you all up for days with hundreds of stories and adventures we shared, from the stage and studio with Ricky to a little 16 track studio with an unknown Garth. From onstage at the Troubadour behind Johnny Cash to Carnagie Hall & Arlo. Tons of records, tons of memories. Thats what you put into a Tele and THATS what makes it worth a million dollars....not the year it was made.
Cheers
John B
www.johnbeland.com

John, I know Nacho said less typing and more playing, but please don't stop typing here. Your posts always make me smile.

[Joel Terry]

Don Ignacio and Mr. Beland, I really dig your respective attitudes about the whole issue. :D

When I walk into Gruhn's and pickup an old pre-CBS Fender Strat, Tele, Jazzmaster, Jaguar, Musicmaster, Duo-Sonic, Mustang, P-Bass, or J-Bass, I not only love to play it, I also love to look at it, smell it (yes, I love to sniff old guitars!), and just caress it. Not because I think it's better in any way than my guitars or basses--or any contemporary guitar or bass, for that matter. I love it because it's a part of a bygone era. Perhaps I'm looking through rose-colored glasses, but those pre-CBS Fenders associatively remind me of cool thing