Setup Beefs

GuitarJonz · October 14th, 2005, 05:32 PM

Got a beef about your pro setup that you paid good money for?

Mine are pretty tame, but the last time I had my tele pro setup, I came to pick it up, and found that the tech had shined my skanky brass saddles to a clean, highly polished gleam. I liked em skanky and old looking. No biggie though, and I let it slide.

The other was when another tech dropped my 2-tone SB MIJ 50s RI tele, and took a 1 inch gouge out of the lower edge poly, right down to the wood. Man, that one pissed me off. He fixed it though, although it wasn't perfect.

Whats yours??

xStonr · October 14th, 2005, 06:26 PM

I don't really have any except maybe they take too long. Another reason why I do most of my own setups now.

GuitarJonz · October 14th, 2005, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xStonr

I don't really have any except maybe they take too long.

One cool thing my tech does is to put you on the calendar, usually 2-3 weeks out. Then you bring the guitar the day before that date, he does his thing on it the next day, and you come back on date +1 to pick it up. Sure beats leaving your axe for 3 weeks.

jwells393 · October 14th, 2005, 09:30 PM

Why aren't you guys doing your own set-ups............ It ain't rocket surgery.

Fatmanstratman · October 15th, 2005, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwells393

Why aren't you guys doing your own set-ups............ It ain't rocket surgery.

Neither is tuning up a car engine - as long as you have the necessary skills and - more importantly - all the necessary tools and equipment. Don't assume that everyone is blessed with the same skills that you have acquired.

I think most of us do our own setups, but if I've just bought a particularly expensive guitar, or if I've got a particular problem that I'm not confident with, I'll always take it to my tech.

Sure, he charges top money, but the feel of that guitar when you get it back is just amazing.

Some folks do their own cooking & cleaning, others like to pay someone to do it for them. Sometimes it's nice to pay for someone else to sweat over your favourite guitar!

chickenpicker · October 15th, 2005, 03:49 AM

I like to do my own setups, and am able to do most jobs with my existing tools, but I've come to a dilemma with nuts: how to cut slots on the cheap! I could order some saws and files, but they might not get much use.

Does anyone have any tips for achieving accurate and professional looking nut slots without special tools?

Fatmanstratman · October 15th, 2005, 04:09 AM

chickenpicker, it IS possible to slot your own nuts without having to shell out the RIDICULOUS prices for so-called "professional" nut slotting files. For a decent set (in UK) you can expect to pay between £50 and £85 ($90 - $150), and at that price you would need to be slotting an awful lot of nuts!

Brandoni do a set for around $30 but a colleague told me that they were "best avoided for that money"......

My own set is made up from nothing more complicated than hacksaw blades. Each one is approx. 6" long. The 6th/5th/4th & 3rd string slotters are made from standard blades, carefully ground down either side to achieve the desired slot width. The 2nd/1st string slotters are made from junior hacksaw blades, again carefully ground down.

I'm afraid that the grinding process is all down to patience, trial & error when trying to achieve the correct width - but when hacksaw blades are so cheap it's not a big deal if you have to throw a couple away.

Slotting nuts is all down to patience and careful, slow workmanship anyway. Rarely can I cut all 6 slots and say "Wow - perfect" (in fact, I've NEVER had such luck!).

When you say "professional looking nut slots", that's not down to the slots - the look of the nut is down to the final finishing, shaping and polishing - you should hardly be able to SEE your string slots!

Best bet is to buy some cheapo blank nuts of eBay, make up some nut files, and... well, try it! You'll be surprised how quickly you will become confident and proficient.

Colo Springs E · October 15th, 2005, 05:55 AM

...The guy who does my set-ups, is the other guitarist in my band--he works at a local music shop.

He spends a great deal of time with my guitar, and mine usually goes to the front of the line when I bring it in.

Price? Usually $10-$20 cash. The other day, he set up my guitar, got the action nice and low with the neck nice and nearly flat, new strings, and threw in a homemade--but pretty nice--4x12 cabinet cover someone had brought in, for $20 cash.

Life is good!!

:)

GuitarJonz · October 15th, 2005, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwells393

Why aren't you guys doing your own set-ups............ It ain't rocket surgery.

I do most easy stuff, but nuts & frets are better left to a pro IMO. Mine was in for a new bone nut, as my old nut had been butchered.

jwells393 · October 15th, 2005, 07:18 AM

I was referring to set-ups .............. not repairs.

Fatmanstratman · October 15th, 2005, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuitarJonz

I do most easy stuff, but nuts & frets are better left to a pro IMO.

Yep - I agree 100%. If everyone was capable of setting up their own guitars from start to finish, there would be no need for guitar techs.

I can ease a headache with an aspirin, I can help the 'flu with some NightNurse, and I can rub some heat-inducing menthol rub on sore muscles..... but I'll never put my Doctor out of business, that's for sure!

The thing about frets and nuts is... you only get one chance (well, maybe two with the nut...) so if you foul it up, it has to go to a tech anyway. Then you really DO pay......

chickenpicker · October 15th, 2005, 08:20 AM

I'll have a go at grinding/stoning junior hacksaw blades down. I might try grinding needle files too, as their teeth are so fine.

Mark Davis · October 15th, 2005, 11:00 AM

Anyone who can follow instructions and use simple hand tools from 12-80 years old should be able to setup their own guitar.

I started playing in 1966 by 67 I was doing all my work there werent techs back then like there is now and you just did it yourself. I learned without any books or anything. I did learn alot of tricks on how to make things easier when I moved to Bakersfield and hung around Gene Moles guitar shop.

All guitars should come with a complete detailed easy to follow setup guide. Fender has a good one you can download but everyone doesnt have Internet access.

Anyone that has Internet access should be able to setup their own guitar there is so much info on the web on how to do things there is really no reason to take it to a tech for a simple setup.

Doug R · October 15th, 2005, 03:35 PM

I have an X-acto mini saw, about the size of a pocket comb, that has very fine teeth and is very thin. It was only about 5 or 6 bucks at a hobby store.
I found it to be perfect for fine adjusting nut slots. Go VERY SLOW, like one stroke at a time, and mind the angle of the saw blade. It was fine enough to do E and B-strings, and for the wider strings, you just have to move it back and forth slightly as you saw.
It's a lot cheaper than the saw and files sets people buy, and works quite well for small, fine cutting jobs like this.

red57strat · October 15th, 2005, 06:08 PM

In my 26 years of playing, I've had guitars professionally set up twice, just to see if a pro setup was better than what I was doing.

It wasn't.

I go to a pro for fret dressing, refrets and repairs. Other than that I can do a better job myself. I know what I want more than a pro does.

J-man · October 15th, 2005, 06:14 PM

I almost f*cked my LP's truss last time I tried to set it up. I'm just generally bad at that sort of thing. :P

So I always pay to have mine done.

If you can do it yourself good for you, but I can't. :(

chickenpicker · October 16th, 2005, 04:40 AM

Hi Doug

I don't think saws with such narrow blades are generally available here in the UK, hence our having to grind wider ones down.

I did once use an oilstone to take the set off a junior haksaw blade, which made it the perfect width for cutting fret slots.

chickenpicker · October 16th, 2005, 04:59 AM

Of course, I could have searched the Internet to see if x-acto saws can be found in the UK...

...which they can...

...Next stop: local model makers' shop!

I'll keep you posted as to my progress. And costs!

Rob DiStefano · October 16th, 2005, 05:39 AM

Geez, there's a lot I could post in this thread, but in a very short synopsis, here are my opinions ...

Guitar techs and luthiers are humans. To err is human and we all practice our humanity on a daily basis, don't we? This is not an excuse for when boo-boo's occur, it's an explanation that they certainly could occur, as super careful as we try to be ... it's just a fact of humanity. Unless the tech has fostered a bad track record ... that's a completely different story.

If you do "guitar work" for a living, you ain't gonna be livin' high and well unless yer a tech for Eric or Carlos or Buddy or Larry or stick-a-well-off-guitarist's-name-here ... or unless you charge a small highly inflated fortune for your work. So, to pay the bills and stick the key in the shop door, you charge fair rates and get swamped with work that forces customers to wait, and depending on the tech's work load that can be dayze or weeks - or longer. It'd be nice to schedule setup appointments, like a doctor, but too often that's not practical when yer customer is hundreds or thousands of miles away. And yer current workload is off-the-wall and yer "work load window" varies on a daily basis, for sundry reasons. As long as you let your customer understand your current work times, as best you know, that's guitar tech life in the fast lane.

What a tech actually does with your guitar (for a "setup") is another thing, and that can vary a whole bunch based on a huge buncha criteria. If properly approached, the spectrum of work parameters are unique and enormous, as no two guitarists and guitars are the same, and it would take a tome to write about.

All guitarists should understand their instruments and learn to perform their own basic guitar setups. It's not rocket science. Start with Dan Erlewine's guitar repair book - everything you need to know is there, and very well explained. I've coached perhaps hundreds of guitarists to accomplishing their own setup work.

Cutting a nut is not part of a basic setup, and really does require proper tools in order to accomplish the work correctly. It's not a difficult job, once you understand a good process, and you use the proper round edged gauged nut files - and not some jury-rigged saw blade or v-file or other such inferior stuff. The bottom of a nut slot should be rounded - not flat, and not a "V" shape. Buy the proper guaged nut files - you won't need that many, you'll use them more often than you think, and they'll last a lifetime - geez, we spend hundreds if not thousands on our guitars, what's another $50 to $100 on something you'll use forever? I just don't understand the huge urge to save a few bucks on nutfiles - yer just making more work and trouble for yerself AND your guitars. YMMV.

chickenpicker · October 16th, 2005, 08:41 AM

I'll consider my wrist duly slapped! :D

Rob DiStefano · October 16th, 2005, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chickenpicker

I'll consider my wrist duly slapped! :D

Oh my! Heaven forbid! :)

Fatmanstratman · October 16th, 2005, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob DiStefano

Buy the proper guaged nut files - you won't need that many, you'll use them more often than you think, and they'll last a lifetime - geez, we spend hundreds if not thousands on our guitars, what's another $50 to $100 on something you'll use forever? I just don't understand the huge urge to save a few bucks on nutfiles - yer just making more work and trouble for yerself AND your guitars.

An interesting and thoughtful post, Rob - of course you are right (well, you SHOULD be - that's your job!) about buying the right tools.

But look at it from the "non-tech's" viewpoint - as pointed out by someone earlier, replacing a nut is a REPAIR rather than basic 'set up' work.

On my lower-end guitars, I have had superb results with my "jerry rigged" nut slotters made from my ground down hacksaw blades. Of course, I would never attempt to carry out such work on my more expensive guitars - that's why we pay people like yourself who are PROFESSIONALS and who already have the proper tools.

Let's be honest - shelling out $100 for a set of nutfiles that you MIGHT use 5 times is without doubt wasted money. Money that would be better spent on a professional job from someone like yourself. I mean, how many times would you change the nut during the life of any guitar? Most of my guitars have NEVER had a new nut, and may never ever need one.

I want to be able to carry out a basic setup on most of my guitars; some of them will never be touched by anyone other than a professional tech. I've taught myself to cut, fit, shape, slot and polish a new nut just in case I can't get the guitar to a proper tech for any reason. The quality of MY workmanship (with my jerry rigged tools) against yours? Nowhere near. No contest. The cost of my work fitting the new nut? Zilch. The cost of yours? The going rate (around $75?).

But the KEY point is.... the cost of MY workmanship IF I foul up? $75 for a pro to do the job, plus all my own wasted time. The cost of YOUR foulup? Zilch - you're a pro - you don't make foul-ups. 8)

My advice to anyone wanting to fit a new nut who isn't 100% sure of what they are doing - don't bother, just take it to a tech like Rob and have it done RIGHT FIRST TIME.

Rob DiStefano · October 16th, 2005, 09:52 AM

I hear what yer saying, Fatman. However ...

Assuming that this discussion is strictly about "serious guitarists", when it comes to tooling, I can't agree. If you have good tools then the onus is on your process and craftsmanship.

Using the proper nut files means that you'll care for all your guitars, and will soon be doing likewise for yer mates' guitars. Again, I think that $50 to $100 is nothing compared to the typical outlay on guitar guitars, amps, FX, etc. It's one step above doing a "setup", but it's a good and very useful one. Nutfiles have other uses, like notching saddles.

I can assure you - if yer a lifetime guitar player you'll use'em way more than a dozen times. Arm yerself with the proper tools - you wouldn't play an inferior guitar, would ya? IMO, $75 is steep for a new nut job - I can't see charging more than $50 for an installed vintage cow bone nut, and that includes a fresh set of strings and a setup. As always, YMMV.

October 14th, 2005, 05:32 PM	#1 (permalink)
GuitarJonz Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Mass. Posts: 2,717 7 Photos	Setup Beefs Got a beef about your pro setup that you paid good money for? Mine are pretty tame, but the last time I had my tele pro setup, I came to pick it up, and found that the tech had shined my skanky brass saddles to a clean, highly polished gleam. I liked em skanky and old looking. No biggie though, and I let it slide. The other was when another tech dropped my 2-tone SB MIJ 50s RI tele, and took a 1 inch gouge out of the lower edge poly, right down to the wood. Man, that one pissed me off. He fixed it though, although it wasn't perfect. Whats yours??

October 14th, 2005, 09:30 PM	#4 (permalink)
jwells393 Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Albuquerque, USA Age: 64 Posts: 11,932 101 Photos	Why aren't you guys doing your own set-ups............ It ain't rocket surgery. __________________ Jack's Disclaimer: When I say something.... always ask yourself ..... "What the hell does he know?" _ Guys - learn to disable the flash on your digital cameras.

October 15th, 2005, 04:09 AM	#7 (permalink)
Fatmanstratman Friend of Leo's Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Fatmanville, Cambs., UK Posts: 2,755	It IS possible... chickenpicker, it IS possible to slot your own nuts without having to shell out the RIDICULOUS prices for so-called "professional" nut slotting files. For a decent set (in UK) you can expect to pay between £50 and £85 ($90 - $150), and at that price you would need to be slotting an awful lot of nuts! Brandoni do a set for around $30 but a colleague told me that they were "best avoided for that money"...... My own set is made up from nothing more complicated than hacksaw blades. Each one is approx. 6" long. The 6th/5th/4th & 3rd string slotters are made from standard blades, carefully ground down either side to achieve the desired slot width. The 2nd/1st string slotters are made from junior hacksaw blades, again carefully ground down. I'm afraid that the grinding process is all down to patience, trial & error when trying to achieve the correct width - but when hacksaw blades are so cheap it's not a big deal if you have to throw a couple away. Slotting nuts is all down to patience and careful, slow workmanship anyway. Rarely can I cut all 6 slots and say "Wow - perfect" (in fact, I've NEVER had such luck!). When you say "professional looking nut slots", that's not down to the slots - the look of the nut is down to the final finishing, shaping and polishing - you should hardly be able to SEE your string slots! Best bet is to buy some cheapo blank nuts of eBay, make up some nut files, and... well, try it! You'll be surprised how quickly you will become confident and proficient. __________________ . . . *"Behind every argument is someone's ignorance."*

October 15th, 2005, 05:55 AM	#8 (permalink)
Colo Springs E Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 5,107 5 Photos	Well, I'm REALLY lucky!.... ...The guy who does my set-ups, is the other guitarist in my band--he works at a local music shop. He spends a great deal of time with my guitar, and mine usually goes to the front of the line when I bring it in. Price? Usually $10-$20 cash. The other day, he set up my guitar, got the action nice and low with the neck nice and nearly flat, new strings, and threw in a homemade--but pretty nice--4x12 cabinet cover someone had brought in, for $20 cash. Life is good!! :) __________________ She's been a bad girl. She's like a chemical. Though you try to stop it, she's like a narcotic.

October 15th, 2005, 07:18 AM	#10 (permalink)
jwells393 Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Albuquerque, USA Age: 64 Posts: 11,932 101 Photos	I was referring to set-ups .............. not repairs. __________________ Jack's Disclaimer: When I say something.... always ask yourself ..... "What the hell does he know?" _ Guys - learn to disable the flash on your digital cameras.

October 14th, 2005, 06:26 PM	#2 (permalink)
xStonr Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Down in the Boondocks Posts: 1,318 4 Photos	I don't really have any except maybe they take too long. Another reason why I do most of my own setups now.

October 15th, 2005, 03:49 AM	#6 (permalink)
chickenpicker Friend of Leo's Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: UK Posts: 3,060 14 Photos	I like to do my own setups, and am able to do most jobs with my existing tools, but I've come to a dilemma with nuts: how to cut slots on the cheap! I could order some saws and files, but they might not get much use. Does anyone have any tips for achieving accurate and professional looking nut slots without special tools?

October 15th, 2005, 08:20 AM	#12 (permalink)
chickenpicker Friend of Leo's Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: UK Posts: 3,060 14 Photos	Thanks Fatman! I'll have a go at grinding/stoning junior hacksaw blades down. I might try grinding needle files too, as their teeth are so fine.

October 15th, 2005, 11:00 AM	#13 (permalink)
Mark Davis Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bakersfield Ca. Age: 58 Posts: 12,485	Anyone who can follow instructions and use simple hand tools from 12-80 years old should be able to setup their own guitar. I started playing in 1966 by 67 I was doing all my work there werent techs back then like there is now and you just did it yourself. I learned without any books or anything. I did learn alot of tricks on how to make things easier when I moved to Bakersfield and hung around Gene Moles guitar shop. All guitars should come with a complete detailed easy to follow setup guide. Fender has a good one you can download but everyone doesnt have Internet access. Anyone that has Internet access should be able to setup their own guitar there is so much info on the web on how to do things there is really no reason to take it to a tech for a simple setup. __________________ I'm so blind my seeing eye dog needs glasses.

October 15th, 2005, 03:35 PM	#14 (permalink)
Doug R Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Spokane, WA USA Posts: 127	re: nuts I have an X-acto mini saw, about the size of a pocket comb, that has very fine teeth and is very thin. It was only about 5 or 6 bucks at a hobby store. I found it to be perfect for fine adjusting nut slots. Go VERY SLOW, like one stroke at a time, and mind the angle of the saw blade. It was fine enough to do E and B-strings, and for the wider strings, you just have to move it back and forth slightly as you saw. It's a lot cheaper than the saw and files sets people buy, and works quite well for small, fine cutting jobs like this. __________________ It's not getting any smarter out there. You have to come to terms with stupidity and make it work for you. F. Zappa

October 15th, 2005, 06:08 PM	#15 (permalink)
red57strat Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,121	In my 26 years of playing, I've had guitars professionally set up twice, just to see if a pro setup was better than what I was doing. It wasn't. I go to a pro for fret dressing, refrets and repairs. Other than that I can do a better job myself. I know what I want more than a pro does.

October 15th, 2005, 06:14 PM	#16 (permalink)
J-man Moderator Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North Wales/Scarborough Age: 19 Posts: 6,172 9 Photos	I almost f*cked my LP's truss last time I tried to set it up. I'm just generally bad at that sort of thing. :P So I always pay to have mine done. If you can do it yourself good for you, but I can't. :( __________________ Write a wise saying and your name will live forever. - Unknown "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away." - Tom Waits

October 16th, 2005, 04:40 AM	#17 (permalink)
chickenpicker Friend of Leo's Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: UK Posts: 3,060 14 Photos	x-acto Hi Doug I don't think saws with such narrow blades are generally available here in the UK, hence our having to grind wider ones down. I did once use an oilstone to take the set off a junior haksaw blade, which made it the perfect width for cutting fret slots.

October 16th, 2005, 04:59 AM	#18 (permalink)
chickenpicker Friend of Leo's Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: UK Posts: 3,060 14 Photos	Engage brain before posting! Of course, I could have searched the Internet to see if x-acto saws can be found in the UK... ...which they can... ...Next stop: local model makers' shop! I'll keep you posted as to my progress. And costs!

October 16th, 2005, 05:39 AM	#19 (permalink)
Rob DiStefano Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Park Ridge, NJ Age: 62 Posts: 4,679	Geez, there's a lot I could post in this thread, but in a very short synopsis, here are my opinions ... Guitar techs and luthiers are humans. To err is human and we all practice our humanity on a daily basis, don't we? This is not an excuse for when boo-boo's occur, it's an explanation that they certainly could occur, as super careful as we try to be ... it's just a fact of humanity. Unless the tech has fostered a bad track record ... that's a completely different story. If you do "guitar work" for a living, you ain't gonna be livin' high and well unless yer a tech for Eric or Carlos or Buddy or Larry or stick-a-well-off-guitarist's-name-here ... or unless you charge a small highly inflated fortune for your work. So, to pay the bills and stick the key in the shop door, you charge fair rates and get swamped with work that forces customers to wait, and depending on the tech's work load that can be dayze or weeks - or longer. It'd be nice to schedule setup appointments, like a doctor, but too often that's not practical when yer customer is hundreds or thousands of miles away. And yer current workload is off-the-wall and yer "work load window" varies on a daily basis, for sundry reasons. As long as you let your customer understand your current work times, as best you know, that's guitar tech life in the fast lane. What a tech actually does with your guitar (for a "setup") is another thing, and that can vary a whole bunch based on a huge buncha criteria. If properly approached, the spectrum of work parameters are unique and enormous, as no two guitarists and guitars are the same, and it would take a tome to write about. All guitarists should understand their instruments and learn to perform their own basic guitar setups. It's not rocket science. Start with Dan Erlewine's guitar repair book - everything you need to know is there, and very well explained. I've coached perhaps hundreds of guitarists to accomplishing their own setup work. Cutting a nut is not part of a basic setup, and really does require proper tools in order to accomplish the work correctly. It's not a difficult job, once you understand a good process, and you use the proper round edged gauged nut files - and not some jury-rigged saw blade or v-file or other such inferior stuff. The bottom of a nut slot should be rounded - not flat, and not a "V" shape. Buy the proper guaged nut files - you won't need that many, you'll use them more often than you think, and they'll last a lifetime - geez, we spend hundreds if not thousands on our guitars, what's another $50 to $100 on something you'll use forever? I just don't understand the huge urge to save a few bucks on nutfiles - yer just making more work and trouble for yerself AND your guitars. YMMV.

October 16th, 2005, 08:41 AM	#20 (permalink)
chickenpicker Friend of Leo's Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: UK Posts: 3,060 14 Photos	OK Rob I'll consider my wrist duly slapped! :D

October 16th, 2005, 09:52 AM	#23 (permalink)
Rob DiStefano Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Park Ridge, NJ Age: 62 Posts: 4,679	I hear what yer saying, Fatman. However ... Assuming that this discussion is strictly about "serious guitarists", when it comes to tooling, I can't agree. If you have good tools then the onus is on your process and craftsmanship. Using the proper nut files means that you'll care for all your guitars, and will soon be doing likewise for yer mates' guitars. Again, I think that $50 to $100 is nothing compared to the typical outlay on guitar guitars, amps, FX, etc. It's one step above doing a "setup", but it's a good and very useful one. Nutfiles have other uses, like notching saddles. I can assure you - if yer a lifetime guitar player you'll use'em way more than a dozen times. Arm yerself with the proper tools - you wouldn't play an inferior guitar, would ya? IMO, $75 is steep for a new nut job - I can't see charging more than $50 for an installed vintage cow bone nut, and that includes a fresh set of strings and a setup. As always, YMMV.