Playing with those "Pesky Steel Guitars".

[Ericwest53]

Hi.

I'm posting this after perusing the "Buzz Feiten" thread on this forum, and thought it might be interesting as to why "steel guitars" are considered "pesky".

Fiddles are in my long experience "pesky" because a lot of the players play closed positions, playing to what they "think" they hear, be it a flat vocalist or maybe a sharp guitar, rythym or otherwise in the hands of "the exuberant". Other than that, they almost always "tune" to the strobe. The ones that play to their open strings don't wander as much...

Steels are another matter. "Nightmare"? Well.....

:)

Heck of an intro, but I've played 6 string for 40 some years, and fromthe beginning have always tuned what is referred to as heretically "straight up" Maybe adjusting the G string for poorly set up nuts, maybe even the B string..

Playing Pedal Steel steadily for money for the last 25, most of it was done in the same manner. More than a couple thousand paid gigs. (Some better than others of course.) No "adjustments", though it's a durn site harder on some cases, and there are no "bridge adjusters".

I have had no problems keeping it "straight" and have played with several dozen local players, some of whom I'm sure visit this board.

Here's where the story changes.

About three years ago, I started learning that a LOT of PSG players tune their "thirds" "sixths" and other intervals up to "15 cents flat". They have complex methods for their positional adjustments, and reasons why "It doesn't matter" on single note, and out of context chord fragments.

The first time I heard this I spit my ice tea all over my fretboard, and dismissed it out of hand.

Then I heard more and more how "top name" players were doing this.

In the last three years of my participation on the

Regardless that the "Top Guy" Buddy Emmons tunes his "straight up", it goes on from directly beneath him, that the thirds, sixths, and I don't know what all must vary 2-15 CENTS or it 's considered "out of tune".

Invariably, it is let that "guitars" tune or "tweak" this way too, which is where as a guitar player, I finally have to put my foot down.

They mention the "BF" tuning system" which I note ROTB that it doesn't "sweeten thirds" not adjust linear intervals. Certainly not 15 cents...

OK.

Some Links.

Last First.

Examples/Paul Franklin Comments

On Guitar Tuning as per the Anerican Luthiers Society Standard

Interesting Sidebar to same

Tempered Tuning Armageddon w/ Buddy Emmons' Comments

Further into The Abyss

Being a guitar player for such a long time, and playing steel currently with one of the better C/W guitar players in Ptld, after playing with a string of them, Kevin Neal, Buster Newberry, Kurt Radtke, and other probably little known but VERY good local pickers, I've found no "pesky intonation problems" tuning the way they and I tune. "Straight up".

It's been put forth that the Pedal Steel, isn't "taken seriously" for a couple of reasons, and that the "tuning systems" might have something to do with it.

Reading at least 50,000 words of the linked posts and topics with participation from the "top guys" in the field might show a couple things.

One, that Buddy Emmons' clear comments are his sole participation and maybe why.

Two, that it's not the Instrument that's necessarily "pesky"....

Anyhow, in case the subject of "Pesky Steel Guitars" comes up, as our instrument moves into and possibly "invades" other genres. It might be well to know some of the "baggage" that will be coming with them.

Not with me though..

I tune my 20 string, 8 pedal, 6 knee lever newly refitted ShoBud, with GHS SS strings on it "Straight Up", just like my tele, strat, and my 1968 Federico Garcia.

Thanks for the read, and, letting me 'splain why the "pesky" tag is not far from wrong, and possibly why..


Eric (Soon-to-be-never-working-in-Nashville)West.

Any comments can be forwarded to the PSG Forum, but it might be noted how I've done lately....

:)

EJL

[Buck Cannon]

not many answer's here,

I myself can't play one yet-- honestly love pedal steel guitar,
man all those early country rock bands had em!!
Now thats pure Americana to me!

Hey, ya probably already know this one? -> http://steelguitarforum.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi

[Ericwest53]

Yup. That's where it comes from.

It's a mail in membership, and has no "performance test" in case anyone's interested. A good place to get info about them.

In the latest threads the guitar is described as a "percussive" instrument on par with a piano, and I couldn't understand it considering who it came from.

I guess learning guitar in the 60s and not long after that realising that you couldn't play distorted "thirds" without "beats" and then deciding to "tune the guitar that way, and then when I wasn't in an altered state of conciousness ( can I say that?) realising that you couldn't, i endeavored to tune the guitar the right way and if distorted, to play "power" or "omitted third" chords. No problem.

Starting steel 15 or so years after my guitar made me expect to hear the notes the way my tuner displayed them, and not with the "thirds being flattened to beatlessness".

With the advent of manifold positions and mechanical changes able to move off the "fretted grid" it complicated an already complex instrument. Hopefully not for "all time", though early results are not encouraging.

Anyhow, I've fought my own battles and agrued my own arguments "over there" and don't intend to clutter my "guitar world". It's just information for people to be aware of when and if they note the "pesky" nature of steel guitar tunings.

No, their tuners aren't broke. it's just that they look at the twelve note system as "clanky". In the next breath, they'll go to work playing along with instruments that don't using an "averaging process" at best..

Also noteworthy are that probably the vast majority don't hold to this complex "beatless thirds "theory" and tune
straight up as Buddy Emmons and others do.

They just get tired of arguing over it.

I for one, haven't.

Until lately maybe..

:)

EJL

[Chris S.]

Yeah, you don't want to poke these things too hard... ;-)



Want some fun? Try getting an upright bass, two fiddles* and a steel together all playing together – all instruments with infinitely variable pitch – and it's anybody's guess where "in tune" is.

I did play with this "old guy" named Jimmy Day for a while in Austin many years ago... he sounded pretty good. Hee. ;-) Best of luck in your, uh... "crusade." ;-) CS

*Q: What's the definition of a quartertone? A: Two fiddles playing unison...

[Ericwest53]

Yeah Chris..

Stirring them the first time is a thrill. Coming back with the stick yet 2 or 3 times while laughing is the real test of dedication.....

Incidentally in my time around Andrews AFB in 75-9, I met some GREAT tele pickers out of the "Waldorf Machine". Probably the best "regular gig guy" was a guy (now possibly passed) on named Jimmy Groves. He played gigs up in the Heights, VB in Morningside, and other things. When he played you could see the sparks. I never got any more "tele" than Jimmy played it.

That was during the DG period and the "Redneck Jazz" effort, though he didn't play "out in the areal" as much as I'd have liked.

What a place.

I think I recognize your picture...

:)

EJL

[Chris S.]

Oh yeah, Jimmy Groves was a tremendous player. His brother (also passed) "Fuzzy" Groves was quite a rhythm player and singer as well. Fuzzy worked as a bouncer at the Crossroads in Bladensburg when I played there during that same era (yes, the same "Crossroads" club where Roy B. played all those years), and Jimmy would come sit in occasionally. Great players, wonderful times. :-) CS

P.S. I use the pic because we share a birthday (3/14) but ole Albert's better lookin'... ;-)

[stevieboy]

I'm hardly an expert here though I play a little lap steel, but it seems to me that with the pedal steel you're playing an instrument with an infinitely variable bar, slantable too, with pedals and levers to boot. Isn't the ear of the player and it's coordination with the hand and legs going to be the determining factor in playing in tune? What's 15 cents here or there when the player can tweak his pitch on the fly at will?

[Ericwest53]

Ohmigosh...

The Village Barn was my evening haunt when at AAFB. Pretty much every nite on anf off for the four years I was there. It's gone of course..

I talked to Don West ( my stage namesake) before he too passed, or knew that he would a couple years ago. He was in
The "Nashville Sound" with Jimmy Grove. He also told me of Fuzzy's passing, and that Smokey Mack was not in good shape.

When somebody tells me that a particular "Tele sound" is really "good" I think of Jimmy and smile As I was to go on later and learn, I suppose some of his riffs and runs were not up to the newest Brent Mason of Brad P things but man, THAT was THE 'telecaster' sound. Tubular with a high edge that you could almost see coming out the amp. They'd play "Memphis", Don W, would launch into a "solo from mars", and Jimmy would be right there playing so you'd see sparks.. Jimmy played as you know many venues and did "retro" stuff too up in District Heights, but I never saw him there..

Fuzzy had the voice of voices, playing bass and singing "Cry" "Half a Man" "Blue Diamond" and a hundred others still fresh in my 52 year old mind. Herby Jones played bass with them, and I"m sure he's gone too....

Too at the time, I'd go see "The String Dusters" with Sid Hudson on tele, my at the time PS teacher Bud Charleton on Steel, Roy Self on Bass with another astounding voice.

Alas, things were changing for music, and us all, though my memory of it never will.

Thanks for jogging it.

:)

EJL

[Ericwest53]

Ah yes Stevie. There the fun begins..

That's why I tune "straight up".

90% of "it" is in the "playing".

If you're "close" you'll play it there out of reflex.

Also I like the "ringing" of a nice bright major chord.



EJL

[Joe-Bob]

I play rhythm in a couple of jazz big bands. When there's tuning problems, it's not me. :D