The Boutique Truth..??

[NastyMojo]

I have been looking for a decent builder to build me my dream guitar for a few months now,and I have came across lots of names...and I don't wanna start a debate about relic guitars,but my dream guitar would be pre-worn in..which brings me to my next point.
I have noticed there are quite a few boutique Strat and Tele clone builders,who do the whole aged finish. I also have noticed alot of them just buy necks and bodies from allparts,warmoth,ect... and then relic them...and then they charge anywhere from 2 Grand to 4 Grand!!!
Why would a parts guitar ever be worth that much? I can understand if someone buys there own wood,cuts it out,builds the neck and body,assembles frets,electronics,ect..charging 1 or 2 grand. But a parts guitar?
Heres the kicker! People actually buy these reliced parts guitars for over a couple a grand. Why? and What is your opinion on this..

[jjkrause84]

Yeah, I'm aware of this, but I wasn't always.

In my view, anyone using necks and bodies made by someone else (especially warmoth, USACG, etc.) should disclose that loud and clear. Anything less is operating under false pretenses, to my mind.

[NastyMojo]

I agree..I mean wouldn't be the same if I took a bunch of El Cheapo Pawnshop strat bodies and put on Fender Mexican necks and charged people 350 -400 bucks? I could see some of these people (I don't know if I am allowed to say any names of these guys) maybe charging for cost of the parts + 150-300 bucks extra for the labor involved in ageing them...but not 3k

[Ronkirn]

when a boutique builder buys a neck and body from . . . say warmoth…. depending on the wood selected, he could have over 600 bux tied up in a world class couple of pieces…

When a large manufacturer makes their own neck and body, they have about 50 bux in materials tied up in it….. as does a boutique builder that makes his own necks…. 'n bodies….

What you are buying is the skill and talent of the artisan building your guitar…. not the "parts" it's made of….

Leo outsourced parts back in the golden days…. and everyone outsources parts today… even those that say they don't.

so what ya get for your money is a world class guitar…. made by a world class builder…. If you feel you can buy the parts and do it yourself…. I'll be the first to tell ya, go for it, you will love it when you're done… and if ya like, I'll send ya the information/instructions on how to do it…. be careful though… it's as addicting as it can be…. that's why we charge so much,… some "habits" are really, really expensive…

what happens is guys will price parts… body 200 bux, Neck 250, Bridge 85, and on and on… they will windup around 6 - 800 bux…. and think… Gawd… I;m selling it for 2500…. what a rippoff…. well we have a few other little items to factor in…. like the 50,000.00 shop we built two years ago, and the hundred thousand dollars worth of tools we dumped in it…. Y'all don't have a hunret thou in tools do ya? or the 800 a month electric bill for the shop..

It's more than the sum of the parts… lots more...



Ron Kirn

[psyched]

Why? Because the market will bear it. Before there was a "vintage" market, there were just dumpy old guitars. Then this concept of "vintage" comes into being, and whether or not anyone agrees with how good/bad/consistent the guitars were (or anything one could say about them, really), they command a premium price because somebody somewhere is willing to pay that much for it.

That said, in a way it's like looking at a painting in a local art gallery and asking why the hell a $50 canvas with maybe $30 worth of paint on it should cost $800. That's not a perfect corollary, but you get the idea. Deride the mark-up as ridiculous, but it's worth it to the person who wants to hang that canvas in their living room or wherever. So it is with these relics on aftermarket necks and bodies.

[NastyMojo]

Originally Posted by psyched

Why? Because the market will bear it. Before there was a "vintage" market, there were just dumpy old guitars. Then this concept of "vintage" comes into being, and whether or not anyone agrees with how good/bad/consistent the guitars were (or anything one could say about them, really), they command a premium price because somebody somewhere is willing to pay that much for it.

That said, in a way it's like looking at a painting in a local art gallery and asking why the hell a $50 canvas with maybe $30 worth of paint on it should cost $800. That's not a perfect corollary, but you get the idea. Deride the mark-up as ridiculous, but it's worth it to the person who wants to hang that canvas in their living room or wherever. So it is with these relics on aftermarket necks and bodies.

I have to say that makes a lot of sense,especially since my wife is an artist,and I too enjoy fine art...and yes I consider ageing guitars art too as I am sure most of yall do. :) I guess in the end if I saw a reliced tele hanging on the wall at,say Guitar Center Used for 700 and It plays as good as it looks,I'd be finding away to make some cash.

[harmonicon]

All guitars are made out of parts. There's not a guitar forest somewhere where they're plucked from the trees. Plenty of people who build their own bodies and necks use hardware and electronics from other manufacturers. Should they smelt metal from ore to make their own wire?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, of course, but if someone thinks they can't make a better neck than Warmoth but can do other things better, why not buy the neck from Warmoth? The point of a good guitar is that it should be better than the sum of its parts.

That said, I also think that the entire "relic" thing is very silly. If you like the feel of a used guitar (I do, and I think most people do), why not just buy a used guitar? If you want it to have new frets and a good set up, there are many many qualified people who can sort that out.

[NastyMojo]

Originally Posted by Ronkirn

when a boutique builder buys a neck and body from . . . say warmoth…. depending on the wood selected, he could have over 600 bux tied up in a world class couple of pieces…

When a large manufacturer makes their own neck and body, they have about 50 bux in materials tied up in it….. as does a boutique builder that makes his own necks…. 'n bodies….

What you are buying is the skill and talent of the artisan building your guitar…. not the "parts" it's made of….

Leo outsourced parts back in the golden days…. and everyone outsources parts today… even those that say they don't.

so what ya get for your money is a world class guitar…. made by a world class builder…. If you feel you can buy the parts and do it yourself…. I'll be the first to tell ya, go for it, you will love it when you're done… and if ya like, I'll send ya the information/instructions on how to do it…. be careful though… it's as addicting as it can be…. that's why we charge so much,… some "habits" are really, really expensive…

what happens is guys will price parts… body 200 bux, Neck 250, Bridge 85, and on and on… they will windup around 6 - 800 bux…. and think… Gawd… I;m selling it for 2500…. what a rippoff…. well we have a few other little items to factor in…. like the 50,000.00 shop we built two years ago, and the hundred thousand dollars worth of tools we dumped in it…. Y'all don't have a hunret thou in tools do ya? or the 800 a month electric bill for the shop..

It's more than the sum of the parts… lots more...



Ron Kirn

First off Ron,I want to say I am a huge fan of your work! and thats all I wanted to know was why,and now it makes sense. thanks for your answer and your time. by the way were you serious about messaging me how to relic? :)

[Ronkirn]

I was talking about building a guitar…. I don't relic…. it's a PIA and no matter what ya do, it's never right…. so I figured out a solution….

but there's plenty of info on the internet… some actually will not result in a completely ruined guitar… almost...

r

[Shepherd]

Tool kit to assemble a Tele.


Unless your going vintage correct

[NastyMojo]

I didn't think you reliced guitar,but you never know,thought you might of had a few tricks up your sleeve.

[IPLAYLOUD]

The act of assembling a guitar...to be done CORRECTLY and PERFECTLY...takes time and experience.
The process of painting a body is complicated.

Don't think these builders are rolling in money. They are not.
It's part a labor of love.

My g/f builds and repairs. She could do much better with repairs and restorations if she wanted to. She chooses to do entire builds also.

I have typed this line many times on TGP and will do so again. I am sure Mr. Kirn will agree:
You can get a lot of work fixing something that someone else tried to fix and made worse.

She gets many referals from Mandolin Brothers, most are guitars that were stripped years ago or need a finish repair from a guy who "thought he knew" how to install string ferrules or attach a neck.

[TC III]

Because they make it sound impossible for you too order the same parts and take a phillips and flathead and assemble the parts. I mean even if you bought the pick guard without the pickup and pot assembled it takes under 30 mins to solder the wiring.
Paying the manufacturer to do it makes more sense, cause he offers a warranty, return policy, top trained builders and manufacturing methods, top tooling, and can use previous winding charts and wood selection hard to come by.

[Ronkirn]

Because they make it sound impossible for you too order the same parts and take a phillips and flathead and assemble the parts.

well if ya had your email available, you would, at the moment, be reading exactly how difficult I make it sound, it's so easy, even a Long horn could do it….

rk

[Hoopermazing]

Originally Posted by IPLAYLOUD

You can get a lot of work fixing something that someone else tried to fix and made worse.

I'm sure that's true for a lot of people. Then, there are those of us successfully teach ourselves how to build and/or repair the thing in question and never have to pay someone else again.

[jklotz]

Interesting thread. I've gotten into building my own over the last few months. I thought it was just screwing a few parts together then doing a little soldering. Hell, that's the easy part. Now let's talk about the finishing work! Every try to spray lacquer before? I'm on my 2nd body, and it's coming out ok, but ain't even close to what some of those builders are doing. I'd need a paint booth, workshop and another $5K in tools and supplies to even come close, not to mention another 8 to 10 bodies to practice on till I get it perfected.

Personally I do it because I enjoy the challenge. But to do it as a profession is a whole nother story! Anybody here run a small business? Every Friday, when I pay the bills, it's like hemorrhaging money. Electric, gas, freelancers, licenses, permits, supplies, insurance, on and on. Where do all these bills come from??? So these guys may be charging a few grand for a build, but ask Ron how many hours he has into one. Then take the CODB (cost of doing business), divide it into days, factor in the man hours necessary and expenses, put it on a profit and loss statement, and I seriously doubt these guys are getting rich building guitars. They charge what they do because that is what it costs to run a business, and hopefully there is enough left over to be able to feed your family and pay the mortgage at the end of the month.

Trust me folks, this ain't some grand conspiracy for these guys to get rich and run off with your money.

Now, that being said, is a boutique guitar worth $2K+? I can't answer that, but that's what a guy running a business has to charge if he intends on still being in business next year.

[sonny wolf]

I have never played his guitars in person but from what I see on his website,Bravewoodguitars.co.uk looks quite impressive.He builds his own bodies and harware and extremely knowledgable about vintage correct specs to build a perfect pre-C.B.S. replica.On his site there are various examples of very convincing replicas of old Fenders and you can choose how much relic'ing you want on the guitar.His restoration page of old vintage Fenders is quite impressive too.I think you can customise a particular order to your specs and he does ship internationally.Check him out!

[twangplank]

Its a business. Maybe someday some charitable lad will come along and do it to break even but I wouldn't want a guitar that someone did that way. To say building a guitar even from parts is easy is a bold and uneducated statement (no offense) to say the least. Have you ever leveled, crowned and polished frets. That will take more than a screwdriver. Your paying for experience.

I'm a paint contractor and I hate when people freak out because I charge $4000 and up to paint a new house inside. They think all you need is a roller and brush. Lol Most people that say " I want to do this or that myself to save money" end up calling me to fix what they did. Of coarse by then I'm on another job so they wait a month or so. Time, tools and experience will cost ya. I will now step of my soap box lol

[BWNadeau]

I'm originally from the East coast - Labrador. I grew up learning how to select and cut logs for building boats, and then how to build said boat (father is a fisherman). I've built, or have been in on so many boat builds I can't count them. All this to say, I'm no dunce with a spokeshave. I love a challenge, I'm a singer, songwriter, and play several instruments. I figured, what the hell - I'll give it a try.

I started by a build - didn't work.

I then moved to an unfinished body with a Warmoth neck. The unfinished body was a part of a paisley esq build that I started on this forum. It also didn't get finished - I just could not get the finishing down anywhere near where it should have been. I even managed to screw up the completely finished Warmoth neck. At this point, I was close to $800 in total parts, and still had nothing to show for my money or troubles....thank God I had my Fender, and more importantly had the good sense to leave it alone - lol.

Next obvious step...no, not therapy, and not contacting someone who knew what they were doing either - lol. I got finished parts, and did an assembly. By this point, my soldering skills were much improved, my understanding of the symmetry of the guitar was better, any my playing was much more dynamic. I set about assembling a custom neck, a Warmoth body, and some excellent hardware, making a very playable and good sounding instrument...so I thought. After playing it for a couple weeks, it started developing some ticks that I wasn't able to solve. I brought it to my tech - he is good, although he'll admit there are better around here - and even the brief time he spent with it took it to another level. I could only imagine what difference there would be had it been done by a pro like Mr. Kirn, Crook, Rice, etc - people who possess the tools, skills, knowledge, and experience.

You can buy a thousand dollars worth of parts. You can put them together with a screw driver, soldering iron, and minimal common sense. The likelihood that the outcome will be a better playing and sounding instrument that a CV50 that you can buy used for $200 is pretty low. It takes someone special to make something special...or a considerable amount of luck. If you're content with what you've assembled, more power to you. I've seen the difference first-hand, and will not be so pretentious as to make any comments regarding the merits of a skilled pro charging what he/she does for their labor. YMMV.

[John Page]

Originally posted by: jjkrause84
In my view, anyone using necks and bodies made by someone else (especially warmoth, USACG, etc.) should disclose that loud and clear. Anything less is operating under false pretenses, to my mind.

I absolutely agree. If a builder feels that whether or not they make the parts doesn't make a difference then they shouldn't be afraid of stating it very clearly when advertising or otherwise promoting their product. They should also be willing to justify their pricing when asked about it. If the client feels the justification is there then end of story.