Aftermarket necks= trademarked headstock shape???

[gsh1968]

Originally Posted by jefrs

I think my point is the headstock shape is specifically denied registered trademark status under English law. That will have a knock-on effect into International law because the trademark concept originated here from around C15 and sets the precedence, also remember US law inherited English law.

a) it has been in common usage too long.

This is basically why Fender was denied a trademark on the body shapes. They had been in common use without trademark for too long because Fender allowed the trademark to lapse.
The headstocks on the other hand have been trademarked almost continually, and Fender vigorously defend those trademarks, as is their right, and their obligation to be allowed to continue to hold those trademarks.
I think you'll find that the sections you have highlighted are specifically for items already in use prior to the registering of the trademark, which is not the case with the headstocks.
But I'm not a lawyer, I only play one on TV.

[boris bubbanov]

Originally Posted by dayold

I thought because I read it on as tag (...and was told by a salesman at a shop), that an All-Parts Fender lic. tele headstock shaped neck was to be used as a replacement for a broken fender guitar only and that you couldn't build you own guitars from these.

Lately there are 3 three threads that mentions a few builders using All-Parts parts to build their custom guitars...so is that legal or what?

The reason I'm asking is that I have the guitar building bug once again and do I need to pay a fee to use a fender headstock?

In most states a surgeon can butcher you pretty bad, as long as he's warned you in clear terms, in writing, of the possibility he might butcher you.

A little hyperbole, perhaps, but these tags are to address the obvious collision between fantasy and reality: When Allparts, Warmoth and others were granted a license to manufacture these parts, it was supposed that these parts would in fact be used overwhelmingly to replace existing damaged or worn out Fender or Squier parts. Everyone on the scene today knows this is silly; the vast majority of these parts are used to build non Fender guitars or to permit an existing Fender guitar to morph into two guitars. But these licensees must carry on with the pretext they are selling just replacement parts. Very superficial pretext, mind you: The Licensing Agreement was written by some people from Fender and they wrote the words and phrases stupendously badly and besides they never should have granted these licenses in the first place. Fender's current crop of lawyers know very well they could go to court and would have a next to impossible chance of getting the Genie back in the bottle, so they will not sue to force these parts makers to limit their production to a fair approximation of the number of parts needed to replace genuine broken or used up Fender parts. AND. These License holders are afraid to sue to get court approval to make as many of these necks as they choose because they know also, the whole Licensing Agreement might be struck down and everyone else out there ( USACG, Guitar Mill and countless others ) would gain equal footing with the few companies who do enjoy the current advantages of these Licensing Agreements. Meaning, neither side is gonna ask a court to interpret these awful agreements and therefore we can speculate all we like, what they really mean.

What a mess. No wonder some guy in some shop is confused. This is like an onion; some of us have seen some of the inner layers but no one IMO really knows what the core of this onion looks like.

[TDPRI]

OK, here's my 2¢ on the matter.

Lic Fender Necks are "replacement" necks. Dealers are requiered to sell them as replacements. Once you buy it, you own it. You have no legal responsibilities to FMIC and since it's your property you can do what you want with it.

However, what you cannot do, is put a Fender Logo on it, nor can you build guitars with it to sell on a commercial basis -- because you would have to have a lic from FMIC to do that. And Fender wouldn't give one to you.

But as an individual you may paint it pink and put a Chevrolet logo on it because it's yours and you may do what you wish with your property.

Keep in mind. Fender created those replacement neck licenses in a moment of corporate stupidity. The licenses do not expire and can only be revoked if one of the licensees is stupid enough to break the simple terms of the contract. These 3 or 4 companies that have these licenses are all there are and if Fender could revoke those contracts tomorrow I'm sure they would. They're not going to make any new licenses either.

I'm surprised FMIC has not just bought up those companies as a way to end the whole license debacle.

PS.I should add that all of the above is simply my opinion and I don't have any insight into what FMIC thinks about these issues.

[caferacer]

you can build a guitar out of 100% Fender licensed parts
but you can not SELL it as a Fender guitar

[dayold]

fender used to sell their own replacement necks with a special badge on them right.

[boris bubbanov]

Originally Posted by dayold

fender used to sell their own replacement necks with a special badge on them right.

Yup.

Originally Posted by TDPRI

I'm surprised FMIC has not just bought up those companies as a way to end the whole license debacle.

That is PRECISELY what I would suggest they do.

Even if they buy the company, strip out and kill the Licensing Agreement, and sell off the remaining assets.

[space cadet]

Is he gonna sue all partscaster's? Boo to him!

[dayold]

Originally Posted by space cadet

Is he gonna sue all partscaster's? Boo to him!

[braderrick]

Question: I never owned any of Fender's necks or bodies that were marked "Replacement", did they make you jump through hoops and show what you planned to use it for to buy one? Or did they just sell them just like allparts or warmoth?

Just wondering, cause I was thinking you can get a genuine Fender replacement decal in some cases but you have to go through a lot of stuff to show what happened, why you need it, prove ownership and such I think.

[tape]

Originally Posted by jefrs

Ok, from http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/tm/t-about/t-whatis.htm (that's our UK Government btw)

Trade marks are not registrable if they:

• are three dimensional shapes, if the shape is typical of the goods you are interested in (or part of them), has a function or adds value to the goods;

The two in bold above would appear to discount any attempt to use the 3D shape of a headstock as a trademark that has been in use for the last 60 years.

Despite existing on a three-dimensional piece of wood, the headstock design is really a two-dimensional shape.

[dayold]

Originally Posted by boris bubbanov

W
What a mess. No wonder some guy in some shop is confused. This is like an onion; some of us have seen some of the inner layers but no one IMO really knows what the core of this onion looks like.

+1

[tele12]

The one very interesting fact to know is how much money FMIC gets for these neck licenses. Is it a flat fee?.........a per neck fee? It might be a significant amount of money.

[dayold]

Originally Posted by braderrick

Question: I never owned any of Fender's necks or bodies that were marked "Replacement", did they make you jump through hoops and show what you planned to use it for to buy one? Or did they just sell them just like allparts or warmoth?

Just wondering, cause I was thinking you can get a genuine Fender replacement decal in some cases but you have to go through a lot of stuff to show what happened, why you need it, prove ownership and such I think.

I saw one hanging in a shop and it just had the decal "Fender" on it. It was a 52 reissue style neck. Came with a box if if I remember right. They were on ebay all the time. then they went away a few years ago.

[Beachbum]

Originally Posted by TDPRI

OK, here's my 2¢ on the matter.

Once you buy it, you own it. You have no legal responsibilities to FMIC and since it's your property you can do what you want with it.


[/I]

That's the correct answer right there. If my Chevy blows its motor and I buy a Ford engine to put in it as a replacement then that's OK. My car. My Engine. My business. No obligation to GM at all. In fact this applies to Fender made necks with logos as well. If I buy a Fender neck with logo (whether it be new from Fender or on the used market) then that neck and logo become my sole property. If I then put that neck on my parts build it's my neck and logo and Fender has no say in the matter. However if I sell that parts build and represent the entire package as Fender built then I would be committing fraud which is another matter all together.

[boris bubbanov]

Originally Posted by tele12

The one very interesting fact to know is how much money FMIC gets for these neck licenses. Is it a flat fee?.........a per neck fee? It might be a significant amount of money.

I understand it is per neck sold.

I also understand the amount of money is basically a joke. I think Tommy told me one time and I have forgotten now.

When you consider that for every Licensed neck sold, FMIC has passed up a chance to sell another entire guitar, unless the fee per neck is something like $ 15.00 a neck or more, FMIC is just dying a death of a thousand cuts on all these Fender sales, or rather potential sales, that are never to be.

But that's really the sideline of it. IF there were no licensed necks, then FMIC Legal could be concentrating on ferreting out and suppressing a lot of the kinda Fendery necks, next. So long as the buyers of kinda Fendery necks can switch back and forth to Licensed necks when they need cover, you have a pretty serious "Whack A Mole" situation here.

[Sparky472]

Originally Posted by boris bubbanov

I understand it is per neck sold.

I also understand the amount of money is basically a joke. I think Tommy told me one time and I have forgotten now.

When you consider that for every Licensed neck sold, FMIC has passed up a chance to sell another entire guitar, unless the fee per neck is something like $ 15.00 a neck or more, FMIC is just dying a death of a thousand cuts on all these Fender sales, or rather potential sales, that are never to be.

But that's really the sideline of it. IF there were no licensed necks, then FMIC Legal could be concentrating on ferreting out and suppressing a lot of the kinda Fendery necks, next. So long as the buyers of kinda Fendery necks can switch back and forth to Licensed necks when they need cover, you have a pretty serious "Whack A Mole" situation here.

I disagree. I doubt very seriously that the sale of licensed fender necks is cannibalizing fender guitar sales. To wit, Tommy's necks aren't licensed, hence not the exact shape, but he is still selling a bunch of them - even when other licensed necks are available. People who just want a neck are going to buy just a neck as long as someone is making necks, licensed or not, exact same shape or not. And fender has no legal claim against kinda fendery necks - license or no license, just as they have no claim against perfectly matched tele style bodies without a license to protect that exact shape.

The license is a no brainer for fender, not a liability, regardless of the terms.

[boris bubbanov]

Originally Posted by Sparky472

I disagree. I doubt very seriously that the sale of licensed fender necks is cannibalizing fender guitar sales. To wit, Tommy's necks aren't licensed, hence not the exact shape, but he is still selling a bunch of them - even when other licensed necks are available. People who just want a neck are going to buy just a neck as long as someone is making necks, licensed or not, exact same shape or not. And fender has no legal claim against kinda fendery necks - license or no license, just as they have no claim against perfectly matched tele style bodies without a license to protect that exact shape.

The license is a no brainer for fender, not a liability, regardless of the terms.

You could be right that FMIC is losing a lot more sales to SX or what ever other import knock offs are being made. The aftermarket neck market could actually not be all that big - we don't have the data so we guestimate. Licensure issues alone probably would never determine whether FMIC ultimately survives - this "death" is a figurative one.

I'm not asking Tommy Rosamond how many necks he manufactures, but I bet it is pretty small next to Fender sales; not to mention Squier sales.

Make no mistake about it: there's a GIANT number of guys who will NOT buy the USACG necks because they're all wrapped up in that "perfect" headstock shape mind lock. I tell people it doesn't matter and its so similar but I gotta tell you, they don't seem to listen to me.

Finally, your blanket assertion that FMIC has no claim against Fendery necks is no comfort to you or me if we are the ones getting a Cease and Desist letter. I want to live and let live. I'd rather be left alone entirely, than to have my lawyer say he thinks we can beat back FMIC's attack. Knowing how miserable they could make a chap, might make that fellow play it just a little safer, don't you think?

:^)

It is refreshing to hear someone posit that FMIC might actually MAKE some money off of these Licensures. I could be mistaken, but I don't think anyone actually proposed that that might be true, before now. Everyone I can recall who had an opinion, felt the Licensure was a disaster.

[Sparky472]

Originally Posted by boris bubbanov

You could be right that FMIC is losing a lot more sales to SX or what ever other import knock offs are being made. The aftermarket neck market could actually not be all that big - we don't have the data so we guestimate. Licensure issues alone probably would never determine whether FMIC ultimately survives - this "death" is a figurative one.

I'm not asking Tommy Rosamond how many necks he manufactures, but I bet it is pretty small next to Fender sales; not to mention Squier sales.

Make no mistake about it: there's a GIANT number of guys who will NOT buy the USACG necks because they're all wrapped up in that "perfect" headstock shape mind lock. I tell people it doesn't matter and its so similar but I gotta tell you, they don't seem to listen to me.

Finally, your blanket assertion that FMIC has no claim against Fendery necks is no comfort to you or me if we are the ones getting a Cease and Desist letter. I want to live and let live. I'd rather be left alone entirely, than to have my lawyer say he thinks we can beat back FMIC's attack. Knowing how miserable they could make a chap, might make that fellow play it just a little safer, don't you think?

:^)

It is refreshing to hear someone posit that FMIC might actually MAKE some money off of these Licensures. I could be mistaken, but I don't think anyone actually proposed that that might be true, before now. Everyone I can recall who had an opinion, felt the Licensure was a disaster.

Yep, I'm with you 100%.

[jefrs]

Originally Posted by gsh1968

This is basically why Fender was denied a trademark on the body shapes. They had been in common use without trademark for too long because Fender allowed the trademark to lapse.
The headstocks on the other hand have been trademarked almost continually, and Fender vigorously defend those trademarks, as is their right, and their obligation to be allowed to continue to hold those trademarks.
I think you'll find that the sections you have highlighted are specifically for items already in use prior to the registering of the trademark, which is not the case with the headstocks.
But I'm not a lawyer, I only play one on TV.

And apparently you cannot trademark a three dimensional shape under English law, whereas you can trade mark a two dimensional shape (logo) that is the outline of a headstock. This means you own the logo, not exclusive right to the headstock shape.

But I'm no lawyer either.

[mrshlltoy]

That guy is a moron.