What do 'Master Builders' actually do?

[Mike Eldred]

Originally Posted by Ronkirn

and some of you guys think I’m the jerk…..

Well, actually that thread was done back when I was making necks with Fender's headstock... it included photos of how to take a nondescript headstock and reshape it into the shape so many prefer. Paul asked me to remove anything that could be misconstrued as how to do what many in Scottsdale would find objectionable, and Mark VanVleet insisted…. . . . so I did so.

However, perhaps it's gone unnoticed, that's actually me, knee deep in sawdust really making the guitar.... you wont see photos of me measuring the depth of a Strat jack plate rout, what's that about, or me scraping paint off the back of a neck probably made by a CNC, or pulling tape (I think) out of a control cavity of a body that is obviously already completed. And in the background, you will see a conglomeration of my “stuff” that is necessary to actually make the necks and bodies I use. Mike, Bud, where are your “guys” doing anything meaningful?

I’m sorry Paul. I have tried to just ignore the “swipes” Mike has been throwing around today. I hope you will send him one of those friendly little emails reminding him to “play” nice too. When a “bully” enters the playground and starts throwing “darts” someone’s gotta say something.

The interesting thing to me is, I have never seen, and I have searched, a photo or video of any of the CS masters doing any of the “heavy lifting”. I have no doubt that they are more than qualified to do so, but isn’t it interesting in the photos and videos of ‘em that are made available, they are either sitting around a table telling us stuff we already know… or just “measuring the depth of a jack plate rout or some other nonsense.” How about a 2 minute U tube of whoever doing that engraved pickup cover and the filigree’ around it? C’mon.. I’d watch that kinda stuff all night. Is the “gang” in marketing brain dead?

In a realm where the “clientele” are electric with excitement to see their guitars actually being made, there doesn’t seem to be one photo anywhere of any of the CS guys with a router in hand, a sanding block shaping the back of a neck, a spray gun aimed at a body, a soldering gun in hand, a fret leveling tool sliding back and forth.. a neck being held against a buffing wheel.. a marker tracing out a pickguard, nimble fingers guiding hair fine wire onto a bobbin, a fret press actually being used. No photos where you could say, “Yeah, that guy is actually making that guitar. Am I wrong…. Please let me be.

Many of us “low life” assemblers” have posted photos, almost to the point of nausea, of us building ‘em . . . all the way from a pile of wood, to holding the finished product…. Wouldn’t you think, someone like FMIC, with all those resources, would have at the very least, done something similar.

Just sayin’ is all. I mean.. the “ball” was hit into my court, wasn’t it.

U know who…

Here's a video of them doing something: http://www.fendercustomshop.com/inde...built-stories/

Scroll down to The Splatocaster.

Like I said before, anytime you want to come out, I'll buy.

ME

[dazzypig]

Originally Posted by Ronkirn

and some of you guys think I’m the jerk….. ....(and the rest of the quote)

Must admit, this is sort of what I was getting at earlier.

I don't doubt that the builder can do the things that a customer pays them to do, I'm quite certain you don't get the gig after finishing your 2nd scratch build, right?

What I mean is that, on the average customers '63 lightly aged Stratocaster in CAR that simply had to have the peghead the same color as the body (so, not a crazy, custom order, chromium, disco-ball Strat) doesn't have the amount of man hours put into it that one would expect for the price charged, because things have been streamlined to the point that some of the more time consuming a monotonous jobs are done on machines. It seems that a lot of the 'hand work' is fine tuning rather than actually 'building'.

[Mike Eldred]

Originally Posted by dazzypig

Must admit, this is sort of what I was getting at earlier.

I'm not trying to come off as a jerk, I'm just making sure you have the facts. I hope I had answered your questions, and I apologize if you are taking anything else from what I have posted. I will continue to post videos, pics, whatever, but I am not the attacker here and I think that's clear.

ME

[Colt W. Knight]

Beautiful guitars Mike. I have always been impressed with the quality of Fender CS stuff. Having built a few guitars myself, I understand the extra effort it takes to get this little bit stright here and there.

[Mike Eldred]

Originally Posted by dazzypig

Must admit, this is sort of what I was getting at earlier.

I don't doubt that the builder can do the things that a customer pays them to do, I'm quite certain you don't get the gig after finishing your 2nd scratch build, right?

What I mean is that, on the average customers '63 lightly aged Stratocaster in CAR that simply had to have the peghead the same color as the body (so, not a crazy, custom order, chromium, disco-ball Strat) doesn't have the amount of man hours put into it that one would expect for the price charged, because things have been streamlined to the point that some of the more time consuming a monotonous jobs are done on machines. It seems that a lot of the 'hand work' is fine tuning rather than actually 'building'.

Your assertion is that we charge flippantly for what we do.
We don't. That is an unjust accusation.
We don't build guitars like other factories. People don't want that from us.
It takes time, and time is...

It sounds like you have an agenda or an unreal view of what we do, and why we do it. My suggestion to you is to ponder the possibility that your perspective is probably not an accurate one since you have never been to the shop, or gone through the build scenario.

ME

[James J LaRue]

When it comes to precise cuts, I always prefer a robot or laser, etc to do it. Selecting woods, matching a neck to a body for weight and tone, I feel like at this point in time, people still need to do that. I have no idea what guitars are "worth" what because I'll never be able to afford any of them, and that's ok. They all look pretty sweet. But I am wondering, speaking of pricey, would attending the Roberto Venn school put me in a better spot to work for a company like Fender? Obviously the "Master Builder" is the creme of the crop with the most years of experience, but for someone who's interested in it, who has build several bodies (no neck from scratch)...do most people go to school for this? Does Fender hire only those with degrees/certificates? Seems like most indie luthiers learned their trade by years of building. Which I respect as well, that's all I've doe so far...but I been thinkin about school if I can get financial aid....

[LeroyBlues]

I throw in my two cents.

From all the pictures I see posted here of the masterbuilt guitars, it's just glitz. Most of that work is the work of an designer/artist. Looks nice and fancy, but doesn't have one bit of effect as to how well the guitar sounds or plays.

To Ron and Jack, you both a rock stars in the guitar building world. Both of you build guitars that a made to play and sound great. That's what really counts.

[dazzypig]

Originally Posted by Mike Eldred

Your assertion is that we charge flippantly for what we do.
We don't. That is an unjust accusation.
We don't build guitars like other factories. People don't want that from us.
It takes time, and time is...

It sounds like you have an agenda or an unreal view of what we do, and why we do it. My suggestion to you is to ponder the possibility that your perspective is probably not an accurate one since you have never been to the shop, or gone through the build scenario.

ME

Absolutely, and I'm going to stop where I am at the moment, because while I don't agree with (or probably more likely, understand) the price structure I don't want to come off as an a**hat without respect for skilled workers.

I wasn't trying to be out of line with that last question though. But the amount of work on something like the Splat-o-caster is obvious, it's a complete one off, it's unorthodox building using materials that aren't usually thought of alongside guitar building. I was more interested in the amount of work on the average customers master-build (like the one I described above).

Thanks again.

[dan79]

Awesome pics, Mike - always great to see you posting here on the forum.

I don't own a Fender Custom Shop guitar but I do have a superb 2012 desk calendar my wife bought me for christmas. Everday is close-up pic of the beautiful work you guys do - it's clear to me what 'master builders' do!

[Mike Eldred]

Originally Posted by James J LaRue

When it comes to precise cuts, I always prefer a robot or laser, etc to do it. Selecting woods, matching a neck to a body for weight and tone, I feel like at this point in time, people still need to do that. I have no idea what guitars are "worth" what because I'll never be able to afford any of them, and that's ok. They all look pretty sweet. But I am wondering, speaking of pricey, would attending the Roberto Venn school put me in a better spot to work for a company like Fender? Obviously the "Master Builder" is the creme of the crop with the most years of experience, but for someone who's interested in it, who has build several bodies (no neck from scratch)...do most people go to school for this? Does Fender hire only those with degrees/certificates? Seems like most indie luthiers learned their trade by years of building. Which I respect as well, that's all I've doe so far...but I been thinkin about school if I can get financial aid....

Paul Waller (the MB who built the White Chicken, Bono's Tele, and many other guitars) came from Roberto Venn. It all depends. Yuriy came from Washburn, Dennis came from a cabinet shop, Cruz came from the regular production line. We bring in the best people from the line, and some aspire to become Master Builders, and some just want to be on the team. Scott Buehl (the Uber-Builder! in the Splatocaster video above) used to work with me at Charvel in the 80's. It's never a set pattern.

ME

[Mike Eldred]

Originally Posted by dan79

Awesome pics, Mike - always great to see you posting here on the forum.

I don't own a Fender Custom Shop guitar but I do have a superb 2012 desk calendar my wife bought me for christmas. Everday is close-up pic of the beautiful work you guys do - it's clear to me what 'master builders' do!

Thanks to you and the others for the support.

ME

[Mike Eldred]

Originally Posted by LeroyBlues

I throw in my two cents.

From all the pictures I see posted here of the masterbuilt guitars, it's just glitz. Most of that work is the work of an designer/artist. Looks nice and fancy, but doesn't have one bit of effect as to how well the guitar sounds or plays.

To Ron and Jack, you both a rock stars in the guitar building world. Both of you build guitars that a made to play and sound great. That's what really counts.

"...Most of that work is the work of an designer/artist...'
No, the Master Builders did that except where I noted the Kit Carson things.
You should watch that video I posted. It's really good.

The art guitar posts was a response to the op and some other comments. Those guitars all play and sound amazing too. And as far as the more straight ahead stuff, you should spend some time on our website www.fendercustomshop.com

ME

[dmarcus30]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

After all a Tele isn't exactly the last word in high-end, complex luthiery. I'm assuming they don't hand-carve necks and bodies, or do they? Do they fret the necks, paint and finish the guitars; solder up their own electronics?
Or (with my cynics hat on), is the whole Masterbuilt thing simply a marketing ploy?

I've owned a John Cruz 54 Anniv Strat and I've played a Gregg Fessler Strat. Play a masterbuilt and your question will be answered.

[nadzab]

If I were going to spend CS money on a guitar, I'd buy a Gibson.



Don't flame me, I'm kidding. Just trying to inject a little levity!

[rotheryrules]

I kind I'd want to liken this to American Chopper.

One guy has all the technical equipment, designers, workforce, machinery, experience and brand image.

One guy has limited funds, less experience, no CAD, a part time workforce and a draughty unit.

One builds great quality bikes with perhaps not as much vision, one builds unique custom choppers.

I'd take Junior over Senior any day.

[twangster2]

Originally Posted by Mike Eldred

"...Most of that work is the work of an designer/artist...'
No, the Master Builders did that except where I noted the Kit Carson things.
You should watch that video I posted. It's really good.

The art guitar posts was a response to the op and some other comments. Those guitars all play and sound amazing too. And as far as the more straight ahead stuff, you should spend some time on our website www.fendercustomshop.com

ME

I respectfully disagree, I personally played the 16 thousand dollar Chris Flemming Nash-vegas guitar and matching Blues Jr amp. It was horrible to play..

But the champagne sparkle Tele I played was a joy to play.

[wahscoot]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_craftsman

[Ronkirn]

Let’s back up a tad here… ‘cause Mike and I got into a “sparing match” the last time we “met” in the forum and I do not want this to degrade as that one did.

I have seen enough videos with Mike in ‘em that I feel confident that when we meet, we can and will be friends. After the fight. . .

Mike apparently has a “bristly” personality as do I, so it’s rumored..

Like I mentioned above… Fender has the goose that laid …. And to be “stingy” with prolific photos of the magic happening is almost criminal… and that bugs me to no end.

I have often said, I do not HATE Fender, never have.. ‘cept for a few of those POS back in the 70’s. . . I’ve been a fan ever since I was 15 and walked into Marvin Kay’s Pawn shop here in Jacksonville… It’s FMIC, the “suits”, that make me nuts… like keeping the photos I mentioned “close to the vest”… and a few other “decisions” that Mike has no control over…Corporate types are corporate types… Just dam…. What are they thinking…

And in keeping with the “I do not HATE Fender,..” sentiment… more times than not… I tell guys, “you gotta, just plain gotta go with your heart. If you want a Fender… there isn’t any amount of “mojo” I can apply to one of mine that’s gonna do it for ya…. And there is only one place you can go to fill the bill… “

Mike threw a few “barbs” that looked as though they were directed my way,,,… I’m defensive too… as is Mike about his “gig”. So I understand perfectly…. I have been “rough” on Fender in the past… I’m no longer throwing similar “barbs”. It serves no useful purpose, and actually does something I have abjectly objected to others doing. Raising doubt in an owner about their “gear”.. not cool, not cool at all…

Fender builds them as they want to, and do a damn fine job doing it… I build mine a bit differently … some say I also do a damn fine job too… I don’t know… I just build guitars like I always have and just keep keeping on. If ya like ‘em, Cool. If not… there’s these guys in Corona ya might wanna call. But I’m not about Fender hating. Bill Lawrence would be all over my butt if I were anyway…

Also.. as I have mentioned before… my “real job” back in the 60’s and 70’s was in “the media”. That teaches ya, to a fault I might say, to be more than skeptical. To constantly ask more and more questions. For instance,,, the video Mike suggested we view of the cut away chrome Strat piques my curiosity. It really doesn’t show anything to me. He’s just “messin’ with parts that came from who knows where… not of him making diddly. And that’s a “one of” prototype… not the regular run of the mill guitar. Did he make the body, or was it subcontracted to Boeing Aviation? Point is, we don’t know who made it. BUT THAT DOES NOT MATTER relative to the superb instrument it all became. That’s just what I’m thinking as I’m watching it. Now I only raise that question to illustrate my thought process. I want all the info. I always have.

But… it doesn’t matter a hoot… that is an amazing guitar.. as are many that I have seen and worked on that were made by the CS… and the bottom line is, it doesn’t matter one bit if the neck was shaped by one guy with a spoke shave, or a CNC stuck in a corner of a 100,000 sq ft shop… it just doesn’t matter… all either method does is remove wood you don’t want anyway…but I would love to see photos, as would all of ya…

Mike, I dunno, sometimes guys read me wrong…. Let’s bury the hatchet.., we both love what we do, and do it very well. I do wanna visit y’all and if I get a breather I’ll take ya up on the offer, I have over 40 going at the moment, for one guy, that’s pretty time consuming…

rk

[Doth]

Hey Mike,

Thank you for taking the time to read TDPRI and post. I surely enjoy the insight into the Fender Custom Shop.

BTW, I am also a happy user of the Eldred Esquire Mod.

Thank you,
Don

[Nick JD]

A Master Builder is someone who knows which tool to use for the task.

And by the look of some of the guitars in this thread: a Master Builder is someone who listens to the client, and does not try to change their mind.

That Waller fella is the Master IMHO. The other stuff is just bling on a slab of wood.