NEW FORUM STARTED -- TWANGER CENTRAL

[TDPRI]

Check out the new "Twanger Central" forum, a place to post links to recordings of your music.

Oh, and please read the rules of the forum in the forum's "Welcome -- Please Read" announcement as well.


Enjoy!
Paul Green

[Chris S.]

Gee, our Webmaster is full of surprises! (Suprised the heck outta the moderator, anyway.) ;-) We've got so many talented players here, I'm really glad you've created a place to share some of what we do. :-)

After reading the rules, I do have a question I'd like to clarify: is this new space only for links to <u>original</u> music? The reason I ask is that I just got some sound files of me and a friend playing some jazz guitar duo stuff – but it's all "standards," none of which we wrote or own copyrights on. Can I post links to that stuff?

Thanks again Paul, I'm really looking forward to hearing what people put up. :-) CS

[TDPRI]

Hey Chris, you didn't even know I was back and I sprung a new forum on you!

Copyright -- can't live with it, can't live without it.

I don't know whats legal and whats not. I think it's OK as long as it's not for sale or resale and is credited to the copyright owner??????

I think it's OK. But if someone knows -- I mean really knows not "thinks" then I'd be happy to be enlightened my self.

Thanks
Paul Green

[kickz28]

Thanks Paul listening to other TDPRIers music will be great!
I was wondering if its ok to post covers or does it have to be original music...

Thanks!
Joey

[pc]

Paul, if they post cover material without being licensed from Harry Fox Agency (or other agency), both they AND TDPRI can be liable for damages to the license owners. It has nothing to do with being for sale or for free. The only thing you can safely let be posted without fear of legal retribution are original tunes (owned by the poster) or again, anything licensed.

Seems like you already knew all that from the rules & regs post there in the Twanger forum, but I was just offering a response to your above post.

pc

(Attorney and moderator at another guitar forum. :))

[gtrjones]

While I'm not a music attorney, I've taken a few music law classes. The short answer is that since this site is a commercial site, it would be best to only post original music. It could be argued by copyright owners that their music (if used against their permission) enhanced this site, and they're therefore deserving of compensation. (I doubt anyone would ever go that far, but it's best not to open that door)... I addition, Paul, you might ask posters to agree to a basic release indicating the poster owns the copyright, and is making it available to TDPRI free-of-charge, etc...

[TDPRI]

Great advice you guys thanks. I can't afford THOSE kind of legal problems.

I'll post a notice over there.

Thanks again!!!
Paul Green

[Tim Armstrong]

For what it's worth (I'm not a lawyer, but I participate in a number of boards where music links are posted), the conventional wisdom seems to be that:

1) Any legal responsibilities rest with the website that hosts the song file, not with the board where a link is posted.

2) Such songs posted for free download are neither being sold or broadcast.

In practical terms, folks have been posting links on the main board to recordings they've done of other peoples songs ever since the board has been in existence. Also, I reckon enforcement is going to be quite a lot of work, if even doable. Not only would someone have to listen to every song posted, but there are a lot of wonderful, obscure songs out there!

It happens that I've only posted links to my band's original songs, so I obviously have no problem with this, but there are undoubtably thousands of members here who play guitar but who don't write songs.

Cheers, Tim

[J-man]

I would like to post covers at some point, but I don't want to get myself or the board in any trouble so I won't if it's not allowed.

I wonder how the law treats posting a link on a message board to your own page with the song links on them? Would this be the same as postig a link direct? :?

[tele71]

What a great idea giving everyone an outlet to be heard. Thanks! Chris S. some cool stuff I like it. I'll have to get with Vicki and see if we can put something together and contribute. Again thanks. I can't wait to get home and show Vicki.
Paul :D

[Fuzzyhead]

This new forum is a great idea - with covers or without! Thanks very much for doing this!

I can feel the inspiration coming my way right now!! :D

[pc]

Originally Posted by J-man

I would like to post covers at some point, but I don't want to get myself or the board in any trouble so I won't if it's not allowed.

I wonder how the law treats posting a link on a message board to your own page with the song links on them? Would this be the same as postig a link direct? :?

The answer to your question is no. If you provide a link to your website (NOT a direct link to your MP3 file that just happens to be at your site) and suggest people "check out your tunes" or whatever, TDPRI (or any forum) can't be held liable. However, if your stuff is unlicensed, you can still get yourself in deep goo. There are webcrawlers out there that crawl looking only for MP3 files to create lists for music-seekers, but attorneys for license-holders check those lists too.

It's not expensive or terribly difficult to get your covers licensed. I have the licenses I need for the cover material on my site. No biggie.

Tim Armstrong, just so you know, conventional wisdom or no, both #1 and #2 that you list are incorrect. Wildly incorrect.

Just because the sites (including TDPRI) do allow people to post direct links to unlicensed covers and haven't yet been nailed doesn't make it any less afoul of the law. I can list you other forums that have been nailed. You only have to get hit with one suit to end your forum forever.

For sites that I care about like TFF/LPF and TDPRI, I always suggest maximum caution for minimum damage. :)

[Tim Armstrong]

Originally Posted by pc

Tim Armstrong, just so you know, conventional wisdom or no, both #1 and #2 that you list are incorrect. Wildly incorrect.

Well, no one ever said "conventional wisdom" necessarily compares well to genuine wisdom!

Originally Posted by pc

For sites that I care about like TFF/LPF and TDPRI, I always suggest maximum caution for minimum damage. :)

Amen, brother!

Cheers, Tim

[cowboytwang]

if they post cover material without being licensed from Harry Fox Agency (or other agency), both they AND TDPRI can be liable for damages to the license owners. It has nothing to do with being for sale or for free.

I'm not so sure about that, if it's just a link to someones website. As long as the forum isn't hosting the files it may be safe for them. With this type of licensing it's up to the performer to pay fees.

To get licensing for a song to record to vinyl, CD, or tape it's 8 and a half cents per song with a minimum of 500 copies. If you are doing under 500 copies there is no fee.

Now that's for albums, for digital music on the internet they have a completely deferent set of rules, and they aren't completely clear. It all in the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, I haven't read it all yet(I don't think anyone has).
They have deferent rules for complete downloads, partial downloads, temporary downloads(10 times or less), and streaming audio.
It's still kind of the same as making a record in that if you are playing your version of a copyrighted song they don't bother with it until you have over 500 people downloading it(witch is possible on the internet).
Maybe you could claim "far use" for educational purposes.

I say for anyone uploading copyrighted songs on their websites should know all the laws regarding it completely.

There are webcrawlers out there that crawl looking only for MP3 files to create lists for music-seekers, but attorneys for license-holders check those lists too.

Those are mostly looking "performance mechanical royalties" for artist, publishers and record companies. That's bigger $$ than "Songwriter mechanical rights".

[pc]

Originally Posted by cowboytwang

I'm not so sure about that, if it's just a link to someones website. As long as the forum isn't hosting the files it may be safe for them. With this type of licensing it's up to the performer to pay fees.

No offense cowboy, but I am sure about it. People have paid me to be sure about it. The State of Ohio and the Federal government have tested me to be sure that I'm sure about it.

It all in the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, I haven't read it all yet(I don't think anyone has).

I have. I was sleepy for a long time afterward, but I have read it all.

Those are mostly looking "performance mechanical royalties" for artist, publishers and record companies. That's bigger $$ than "Songwriter mechanical rights".

Again, no offense intended, but you're not even understanding the terminology here, so I don't recommend you offer advice about it. "Performance" rights and "mechanical" rights are two different things.

Of course, as a lawyer, it's in my nature to argue points that might better be left alone, and for that I humbly apologize. The problem is that when I see someone post something that can seriously jeopardize the legal rights of someone who reads here at TDPRI, I have a hard time not responding.

Sorry again--just trying to help.

[cowboytwang]

Originally Posted by pc

Again, no offense intended, but you're not even understanding the terminology here, so I don't recommend you offer advice about it. "Performance" rights and "mechanical" rights are two different things.

Of course, as a lawyer, it's in my nature to argue points that might better be left alone, and for that I humbly apologize. The problem is that when I see someone post something that can seriously jeopardize the legal rights of someone who reads here at TDPRI, I have a hard time not responding.

Sorry again--just trying to help.

Absolutely no offense taken, I posted my response as more of needing to know than thinking I know more.
I'll be the first one to admit that I don't understand the legal issues of the music business. I've been doing the music part for 38 years, and I suck at the business part. Maybe that's why I'm broke and don't have any gigs?

The only part I know about is if I make a CD, of copyrighted songs, and only print 499 copies I don't have to pay royalties, but if I print 500 copies I do.
I have recorded a few things but they have been my own copyrighted songs.

As for the uploading and posting songs on the internet, I've never done it and don't know anything about it.
I would like to learn more and put some songs up.