"bridge" vs "chorus" non-tele content

[stevedenver]

i thought these were the same terms, used interchangably

-can someone please explain the difference between chorus and bridge in a song-

i thought a 'bridge' is a connector between parts of a song, typically the verse-now im not so sure im right-

and...is a 'refrain' the same as well?

is there a glossary where i can get a references for these kind of questions

thanks steve

[lenny]

bridge chorus and refrain all refer to the same thing. the part you sing after a verse or two.
it would be the "b" in an "aaba" type tune

[Jakedog]

Originally Posted by lenny

bridge chorus and refrain all refer to the same thing. the part you sing after a verse or two.
it would be the "b" in an "aaba" type tune

Actually, this is not correct. A chorus is a part that comes between verses, and is repeated several times throughout the song. A bridge, is a third part, that is different from the verse and the chorus, that is used to add a little somthing extra. It usually has a different chord progression, and additional lyrics. It's kind of like a song's "weekend". It only happens once in the song, usually after the second time the chorus is sung, or after a solo before going back into the last chorus or verse.

I've never put a bridge in any of my songs, it always sounded to me like the writer had an idea for another song entirely, but couldn't finish it, so he just stuck it sideways into a song that he already had.


Jake

[d. meyers]

Steve-

There are a large number of musical dictionaries, any of which will have the textbook definition of these terms. I think both of the above posts are correct, in there own ways. Jakedog's definition is closer to the "correct" contemporary one, but common usage has shifted away from this definition in pop music, since almost no one writes pop tunes with bridges anymore, not to mention the long forgotten art of the Tin Pan Alley song form, in which "verse" refers to a long, and typically free tempo, introduction, followed by a 32 bar song form called the "chorus." These songs also had bridges, as in parts coming between 32 bar choruses. In these tunes, the fundamental unit of the song was the 32 bar chorus- this is what jazz players are talking about when they say "blow another chorus"- play through the whole harmonic progression. As you can see, the definitions of these words are different in different contexts- my advice is to call it whatever you want, unless you're trying to write a Gershwin tune.

[yegbert]

Here's a music dictionary online: Sweetwater.

The relevant definition of bridge there is a transitional passage connecting two sections of a composition. Some would define it as a second melody in a song that separates the main melody from its repetition. One of the many meanings of chorus is a solo section based on the main melody of a popular song and played by a member of the group.

[cg73cmc]

For instance, in the song "She Said, She Said" by the Beatles ...

The part that goes ...

"When I was boyyyyyy ...."

That's the bridge. You can usually identify it because it usually sounds refreshingly different from the rest of the song. Some bridges appear though to have the same chord progression -- but the progression is out of place in the song, and sometimes the tempo is just slowed a bit for emphasis. So I don't think there are any hard and fast rules.

Another way to identify it is after you've learned how to play the rest of the song smoothly, there's still this ONE PART that lasts about 15 seconds that you can't learn for the life of you! That's the BRIDGE. Er, well, that's the way it is for me anyway! I think the bridge is big conspiracy of the artist who recorded the song -- they throw that in there with the most difficult chord changes of the whole song just to stymie us copycats! Just kidding! :D

[lenny]

Originally Posted by Jakedog

Actually, this is not correct. A chorus is a part that comes between verses, and is repeated several times throughout the song. A bridge, is a third part, that is different from the verse and the chorus, that is used to add a little somthing extra. It usually has a different chord progression, and additional lyrics. It's kind of like a song's "weekend". It only happens once in the song, usually after the second time the chorus is sung, or after a solo before going back into the last chorus or verse.

I've never put a bridge in any of my songs, it always sounded to me like the writer had an idea for another song entirely, but couldn't finish it, so he just stuck it sideways into a song that he already had.


Jake

oops thanks for the correction i guess i went with my simpleminded approach again and this time it didnt quite work

[stevedenver]

thanks to you all-a bit more clear - the examples of songs are most helpful-she said really helped the picture


so a bridge is almost a 'c' part of the song-like an interesting departure from the repetitions of chorus and verse-

now -not to be a pain the arse-would some sort of fancy 'modulation' say from the key of c to d, with some sort of interesting transition technically be a modulation or a bridge too? a peonderence it is!


especially jakedogs explanantion and the very good reference to the on line-believe it or not i have Groves music dictionary- a true standard for this stuff and no reference to these more modern usages at all!!!

[SteveY]

Originally Posted by stevedenver

...would some sort of fancy 'modulation' say from the key of c to d, with some sort of interesting transition technically be a modulation or a bridge too?...

It's a "Truck driver's gear change" (AKA a modulation, AKA key change).

I've never heard it referred to as a bridge.

[bender72]

Off the top of my head, I would say the bridge would be something like "Texas in 1880" when it goes to, "Someday when you're older someone'll see that buckle hanging there on your belt.......", it isn't a verse and it isn't the chorus, but it is the "bridge". Hope that helps. 8)

[esquirej]

...best advice I was ever given regarding bridges.

"Don't use one unless you've got to get from point a to point b and there's no other way to do it". - RW Kimes, Nashville Songwriter

Such a great piece of advice from a songwriter's perspective. A bridge is often a completely unique part of a song. The melody is generally different, as is the progression.

Best way to look at it, as mentioned in the quote above is to think of the song as a pathway. Suddenly you hit a point where you have to tie two thoughts together and you need a bridge to do it...almost like you have to cross a body of water and the bridge helps you do it and get back on track in the most efficient way possible.

If you don't hit that point, a bridge is really not necessary.

Take care,
J

[cg73cmc]

Now it gets complicated.

Last night I was remembering an old Lennon interview where I remember him saying "I wrote most of the song for this, but Paul wrote the MIDDLE EIGHT".

Then I started thinking ... Is the MIDDLE EIGHT just some british term for BRIDGE? Well, apparently not because when I look on the internet at some song writing sites, some of them show song structure that include both a MIDDLE EIGHT and a BRIDGE. However, when they define what a middle eight is -- they use basically the same definition that we're using here for a bridge.

So my question is, are both these animals (Middle Eight and Bridge) the same? I have only written a couple of songs myself (lame ones) and for both I used the formula : Intro / Verse / Chorus / Verse / Chorus / BRIDGE / Chorus / Chorus / End. All in standard old timey 8 bar format.

HELP!

[Dana]

Originally Posted by cg73cmc

Now it gets complicated.

Last night I was remembering an old Lennon interview where I remember him saying "I wrote most of the song for this, but Paul wrote the MIDDLE EIGHT".

Then I started thinking ... Is the MIDDLE EIGHT just some british term for BRIDGE? Well, apparently not because when I look on the internet at some song writing sites, some of them show song structure that include both a MIDDLE EIGHT and a BRIDGE. However, when they define what a middle eight is -- they use basically the same definition that we're using here for a bridge.

So my question is, are both these animals (Middle Eight and Bridge) the same? I have only written a couple of songs myself (lame ones) and for both I used the formula : Intro / Verse / Chorus / Verse / Chorus / BRIDGE / Chorus / Chorus / End. All in standard old timey 8 bar format.

HELP!

Which Beatles tune are you referring to?

[Twangmeister]

I've written a fair number of tunes (some published, most not), and I'm involved in education programs that use songwriting as a medium to support literacy. The analogy I use is that of a car: the chassis is the chorus, the dependable, repeated idea that holds everything together. Each wheel/tire is a chorus, independent of the other, but they support the chassis and move the car forward. The bridge is an extra surprise in the trunk: a cool idea, an interesting phrase, etc. The car can go without it, but it can make the ride a bit more interesting.

Hope that was a) not too elementary and b)helpful. If not, then we never had this conversation! ;-)

[cg73cmc]

Dana, I don't remember specifically but Lennon used the term "middle eight" a lot in interviews when he talked about songwriting. In fact, if you google the following ... Lennon + "middle eight" ... you'll get a lot of returns. Some of the returns will be Lennon quotes, and others will just be comentaries from others describing how Lennon "did the middle eight" on this song or that.

So apparently the term is real. I suspect it may be just another term for a bridge. Or perhaps a specific term for an 8-bar bridge in the middle. Or perhaps I'm guessing!

[cg73cmc]

Originally Posted by Twangmeister

The analogy I use is that of a car: the chassis is the chorus, the dependable, repeated idea that holds everything together. Each wheel/tire is a chorus, independent of the other, but they support the chassis and move the car forward. The bridge is an extra surprise in the trunk: a cool idea, an interesting phrase, etc. The car can go without it, but it can make the ride a bit more interesting.

Twangmeister! Spot on bro! This is a great analogy and works perfectly for me. My songwriting is like an EDSEL!

[d. meyers]

I cant find a reference lads, but I'm pretty sure "middle 8" refers to the "b" in the old aaba(prime) 32 bar form. I've only heard it used to refer to those eight bars in a tune slow enough to make them distinct from the "a" part and its reprise. The fact that Lennon was using Broadway terminology is a good lesson for those who like Beatles tunes and care to imitate their style (not to mention sucsess)- there is a HUGE treasure trove of songs untapped by most contemporary pop musicians.

[Twangmeister]

I do believe this was the Lennon/McCartney (or is it now McCartney/Lennon) vernacular for the bridge. In "We Can Work It Out," for example, Lennon added the "Life is very short/and there's no time/for fussing and fighting my friend" section to Paul's verse-with-built-in-hook (subsituting as a bona fide chorus). Or, think of the part in Harrison's "Something" that goes: "You ask me if my love will grow/I don't know/I don't know, etc. Being the philosophical sort, George adds this questioning sort of commentary into an otherwise straightforward tune about some special lady (or some Hindu goddess? ;-)

A cool place for a bridge is right before or right after an instrumental break....er, rippin' Tele solo!...to make some pithy point before heading back into a chorus or verse. Seems as though this was more prevalent in 60's and early 70's writing, but, like any creative endeavor, it's fun to challenge oneself with new/old concepts.

BTW, for me, listening to any Beatles song is a lesson in economy, melody, and tasteful arranging. Call me old school, but they sure don't write 'em like that anymore!

Just my 3¢!

[Tim Bowen]

I definitely prefer tunes that have a great bridge, to those that just milk the verse ---> chorus thing, but it depends on the song. I like U2, but some of their tunes wear me out, as there's barely a "B section", much less a bridge.

I'm certain that I'm biased, but I feel that my bandmate is a world class writer, who I'm fortunate to work with. He has a real knack for writing bridges, and they're often my favorite part of his tunes. He also likes to write different changes for solo sections, which is a cool way to move beyond the dreaded "gratuitous guitar solo syndrome".

I'm partial to bridges with some chromatic movement in the bass. I guess dinking with the relative minor or major of the key center is considered a cop out, but I still think it can be effective now and then. Modulations need to be handled with kid gloves and taste.

[el_extranjero]

The bridge often has some relation to the structure of the song. For example, if you're writing or playing a song in CMaj using a I IV V, the verse would consist of the chords C F G. The bridge might include the II chord in a II V I ( D G C ).

Another example would be to do another progression off the primary progression. For example; again in CMaj, the verse in I IV V, CFG, and the bridge uses G as the I and goes I IV V from G (G C D) ...

ok, maybe that's a bad example as the chords are the same, but how about if you did a II V I from G? Then G would be the II, F would be the I, and C would be the V... :)

Ok, how about if we did a II V I from the IV of C Major?? :) Then the II would be F, the V would be Bb and the I would be Eb.

Gee, wasn't that fun? :) It's actually WAY easier than that when you think of it in terms of fretboard patterns. Regardless, my point was....

The bridge, although difficult to remember for us guitar players, often is connected to the remainder of the song in some logical way and is easier if you think of it that way!

[Poppatwang]

let's call James Brown. He's always asking someone to
"Take me to the bridge!"

& a tip of the hat to Page & company for Zepplin's
homage to the Godfather "The Crunge"

[televiking]

Mc Cartney said in his biography that "middle eight" was a term used by Tin Pan Alley writers about a 8 bar- long musical interlude (a bridge in effect) and that he and John started to use the term early on in their writing to name a "third" part of the song (y´know, verse, chorus, middle eight) regardless of the lenght of the part. Only later did they find out that the 8 referred to the number of the bars used originally by TPA writers.
Guess I only made this more complicated

Love and peace

[cg73cmc]

Originally Posted by televiking

Mc Cartney said in his biography that "middle eight" was a term used by Tin Pan Alley writers about a 8 bar- long musical interlude (a bridge in effect) and that he and John started to use the term early on in their writing to name a "third" part of the song (y´know, verse, chorus, middle eight) regardless of the lenght of the part. Only later did they find out that the 8 referred to the number of the bars used originally by TPA writers.
Guess I only made this more complicated

Love and peace

Televiking! You're the man! This was bugging the bejabbers outta me! I'll have to read that bio -- didn't even know he had one out! Thanks!

[televiking]

Yes he has a bio called Many Years From Now.
Exellent read, humorous and informative.
Here's a link to amazon for the book
Even if Amazon is UK, you can get the ISBN number so you can ask your nearest bookshop to get a copy.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...624458-9230238

[stevedenver]

wheres that confounded bridge..its getting clearee to me, in fact

well I have to admist its getting better, a little better all the time....

as for the Paully McC bio - I enjoyed a great deal-it is certainly EVIDENCE THAT SIR PAUL IS THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE -that is to say, he thinks his middle eight is the best part of any song....

but all in all it is a good insight into what influenced him and his world-and what made the Beatles more than a bit different...a good read

[Unburst]

Originally Posted by cg73cmc

Then I started thinking ... Is the MIDDLE EIGHT just some british term for BRIDGE? HELP!

Yes it is, in the UK we refer to the bridge as the middle 8.

Here the Bridge is usually a short link section between the verse and the chorus.