Buck, Don, & Teles.......

[Bill Hullett]

I read a piece of a thread here yesterday that spoke of Buck Owens "tuning down" and some offered their opinions as to why........So I broke out my Buck Owens collection tonight and here are some of the results I found, as well as my take (for what thats worth ....as to why I think they did what they did)

Here's what I discovered:

1. "Second Fiddle" G flat
2. "Under Your Spell" A
3. "Above and Beyond" A flat
4. "Excuse Me, I Think I've Got A Heartache" A flat
5. "Foolin' Round" C
6. "Under The Influence Of Love" G
7. "Nobodys Fool" A
8. "Act Naturally" G
9. "Loves Gonna Live Here" A flat
10. "My Heart Skips A Beat" A
11. "Together Again" D flat
12. "Close Up The Honky Tonks" D flat
13. "Hello Trouble" D flat
14. "A~11. G flat
15. "Tiger By The Tail" E
16. "Cryin' Time" A flat
17. "Open Up Your Heart" A flat
18. "Sams Place" A

The only corrilation between the keys selected and wether or not the band was in standard tuning or in a "De~tuned" mode seemed to be the range in which the vocals sat.....Buck was great about placing the song so the the second part harmony was right at the peak of the range of himself or Don (whoever the harmony duties befell......they varied back and forth about 50/50 according to the Rhino session booklet that I'm studying tonight) .
I don't believe that they were trying to second guess radio or trying for extra big bottom etc.(infact their records were E.Q.ed extra bright and thin actually)........like new acts might do , because I can only find one example where Don even made use of a detuned big "E" string...on the solo of "Loves Gonna Live Here"......more times than not the guitars are playing in the mid to upper voicings and the acoustics are capoed high as to stand out....and the bass plays strickly closed position, which leads me to believe that only Don would tune down to get the advantage of the open strings....because the bass wasn't making use of the low notes that would have been available with the detune...and all the acoustics are actually capoed up (for example: "Loves Gonna Live Here" Don's tuned down a complete halfstep....with the big E tuned down to C#.....and the acoutic is capoed at the 6th fret and playing out of a "D" position.....all the while the bass is in "closed position" A flat standard tuning....so they were all over the sonic map so to speak...Interesting stuff to digest , thats for sure....Going by the studio shots in the booklet it looks as though most of the stuff was cut on a three track Ampex.....And the wildest thing that I saw in checking out the liner notes was that "Cryin" Time" and "Tiger By The Tail" were cut on the same three hour session Dec. 1st. '64.........as well as "Together Again" and "Close Up The Honky Tonks" Jan. 28th '64 ..............& "A~11" and "Hello Trouble" June 10th '64............A pretty majical time for Capitol records when you think what was going down between Bakersfield and Liverpool!!!!!!!!


JMHO....
Bill Hullett

[Bill Hullett]

Another thing that struck me as very different from todays recording was.......Today the market place is very "album oriented" as opposed to "single oriented"...today we'll get booked for 3 or 4 days straight to record an entire albums worth of material on a given artist....all of Bucks sessions were just a three hour session here and a few months later maybe another session...etc....Singles were drawn from these sessions and then albums were nothing more than compilations of the artists "singles" that given year.....I think that it made for a better record really in hindsight...because you never were cutting any album filler.....always going for the radio hit!

JMHO...
Bill Hullett

[Mur]

I agree ..Buck sang in every key imaginable (even in the fifties) ..everything was based around his vocal.

[trag-o-caster]

Oh it was great when you was a kid, trying to figure this stuff out by ear!

Same thing with Hendrix a few years later.

What REALLY got me trying to play along with a John Lee Hooker album. Not only would he tune, and play ANYWHERE, but sometimes his tuning would be microtones off from pitch, y'know what I mean? So that way, you'd have to re-tune your own guitar, over and over, to play along with the album. Very frustrating!

[Bill Hullett]

a Trag Quote....... Trying to find the happy medium between Buck Owens and Jimi Hendrix...............

No wonder you were confused as a child!!%%&&(*?

Bill Hullett

[tdowns]

Bill,
Thanks for such an insightful post.

First of all, where did you get the Rhino session booklet?

After my mediocre attempt to play "Tiger by the Tail" as an instrumental, I quickly saw how playing in E with standard would not render the solo at all. The hammer -on of the open big E to the 1st fret and the quarter tone bend of the 3rd string could not be possible standard tuning. This was what clued me in to the lower tuning before I officially knew it was the case.

10 of 18 songs are not in natural keys. But several songs don't matter for guitar because no solos or fill are used.

Tuning low on guitar causes lots of problems. Unless you go way up in string gauge, the strings are very loose. The inital attack pitch is higher due to looser strings (sitar effect). You may achieve more twang that way, but are you are generally more out of tune. I don't see the benefits other than faking out everyday pickers.

"Workin' Man Blues" eluded many since it appears to be played in A flat with a capo on the 4th fret. You can't make the fills and solo sound right without it.

So did Don tune low to make the availability of open strings easy, or did he have a desire to elude admiring pickers?

Your post represents a stark contrast between the session work standards back then and current day stuff.

Bill, Thanks for this wonderful set of information.

[Bill Hullett]

I've got a boxed set of Buck Owens (3 Cds ) and a killer booklet put out on Rhino...R2 71016.

In the booklet there is a picture of a very young Don holding a late 50's white blonde tele behind him is a tweed 4~10 bassman with a big Buck Owens logo stenciled on the brown grillcloth....I'd kill for that amp!!!!!!

Bill Hullett

[Scotland]

You know, posts like this choc full of great information is what I love about this forum. Great artists such as Bill and Terry go out of their way to give us information that we just could not get otherwise. I love the way both Bill and Terry play and any information they give colours the way I play. My style of playing has changed considerably since I found the TDPRI (for the better I might add) and it's hardly surprising when folks like Bill Hullett take out some considerable time to pass on their invaluable and vast experience to us.
Thank you !!

Scotland beat me to it. But thanks Bill and Terry for all the great info. :-) (And yeah Trag, I too misspent a fair amount of my youth hunched over a phonograph, dropping the needle on the same groove over and over again trying to decipher those same Don Rich secrets...) ;-)

Bill, it's also a funny coincidence about your reaction to the tuning discussion. After reading that earlier thread I got off on my own tangent and started doing a little research – came up with some interesting info, too. Did you know there was a movement afoot to reestablish the "scientific" C=256Hz standard?

http://www.schillerinstitute.org/mus...ning_hist.html

http://www.schillerinstitute.org/music/rev_chart.html

That works out to something like A=432 (or almost 30 cents "flat" by today's standard!) I even retuned a couple of guitars that low to see how they sounded, and it sure did mellow 'em out. :-)

Anyway, cool stuff. And definitely a bonus to get such great info from guys like Terry and Bill. Thanks! :-) CS

[Tele-Whacker]

Thanks Bill, for the research and time put into the information. What started this whole thing, (my thread- "why tune down") was, I was watching a VCR, the other day, (three actually) that was taped in Okla. City, March 15th 1966. The very first show on the first video, the second show, on the second video, and third show on the third video. I was a huge Buck Owens fan, and still am a fan of his, and the band that opened so many doors to me musically.
On the first video, the first song (after buckaroo for an opening theme) is "Act Naturally". The finger positioning is in the appearance of being in "A" but to play along with it on a standard tuned guitar, one will have to play in A flat . All the songs are played in the other "NORMAL" finger positions: ie "E" (E-flat) "C" (B) "G" (F#) .
Appearently, they chose not to take the time to re-tune for some of the songs, (at the t.v. station on Mar.15th 1966) and just play them where they were used to playing them.
Another interesting thing about the videos, is Tommy Collins was a guest on almost every show, and he played the same finger positions, on his own flattop so he must have also been tuned down. Oh yeah! and this! the very first day of taping, Don Rich was playing a gold metal flake double bound Telecaster, and by the March 1967 show (and from then on till the 1970's shows) he was playing a silver metal flake double bound Tele. Buck also plays one identical to it on a couple of tunes. There is one show where Buck played "Buck's Polka" on Don's Telecaster and Don is seen in the background playing rythem on Bucks Fender flattop.
I borrowed these videos from our drummer, but I'm looking for a set of my own. There are a lot of things that come to mind watching them:
Fay Hardin is a guest on one show, and although you see Tom Brumely appearing to kick the song off, I believe it is a previously recorded sound track with Ralph Mooney on Steel, and it sounds like Roy Nichols on the guitar fills. They do not show the Buckaroos backing her up past the kickoff. - There is one tune where apparently, Don lost his pick (off Screen) and is seen using a thumb pick on another portion of the song, however he's using a flat pick the rest of the show. (droping a pick - We've all been there)
On one song they show Tom Brumely playing the ride, and Buck shouts words of encouragement to him, and Tom seems to think he made a mistake, and almost stops playing, looks up with a very serious, confused look, and realizes that he IS supposed to be playing, and goes right back to it. These Tapings of what I will always consider to be the highth of my inspiration to play guitar, and as good as it gets. I must add that by 1965 I was also a huge Merle Haggard fan. - - Still am!

[Tele295]

Bill - what's the chance that they fooled with the tape speed when they mastered the disk, thus changing the pitch? I know they did that with some of Chuck Berry's records to knock some of the Southern-ness off his voice. I've done that just fooling around with recording, and found that it tightens up the bass considerably, and makes the mix a tad more punchy. I mean, if Don played in D (as he was wont to do - Buckaroo), maybe they kicked it up a half-step to Eb? I don't have the reference videos to compare what key they would have used in concert, so I may be full of beans. Just a thought.

[Johnny Isaacs]

It's defiantly tuned down. Don Rich used a 10-52 set on his Tele. Fender made Buck and the band gold and silver sparkle Tele's, a champagne sparkle bass for Doyle Holly, a blue sparkle Rodger's drum kit for Willie Cantu and Tom Brumley had a sparkle Steel. Semi Mosley painted their other guitars red, white, and blue.

Johnny Isaacs

[Buckocaster51]

I just watched the three available VHS Buck Owens Ranch collections. I see they are now out on DVD. Great stuff. I don't know if there was ever a tighter live band. The earlier episodes impressed me the most. Live to tape. The later shows are edited with laugh and applause tracks. Might even be a bit of air guitar being played. <g>

A must watch for Buck and Don fans.

[Mark Davis]

Originally Posted by Bill Hullett

I've got a boxed set of Buck Owens (3 Cds ) and a killer booklet put out on Rhino...R2 71016.

In the booklet there is a picture of a very young Don holding a late 50's white blonde tele behind him is a tweed 4~10 bassman with a big Buck Owens logo stenciled on the brown grillcloth....I'd kill for that amp!!!!!!

Bill Hullett

Alot of times Buck and Don would both use that amp at the same time.

Those Bakersfield sound mixes cut right thru the cheap car radio speakers of the time. WHere alot of the rock type music was heavy on bass and drums Bucks stuff was designed to hear the vocals very clearly.

I once had a 1957 Stringmaster Steel guitar I bought from Buck it was used in his studio all thru the 60's and 70's.

I lived in Oklahoma from 1950-1969 and we watched Buck all the time. A furniture store in Okla City sponsored Bucks show so when it was time for a new couch we drove 30 miles to OKla City in a friends pickup and when my mom and dad found a couch they liked and paid for it to our surprise Don Rich was working there and helped us load that couch into the truck.

[ye olde fretmonkey]

Much to my sweet wife's chagrin, I have watched those Buck Owens Ranch videos over and over and over since she bought them for my birthday last year (I wish I had known that DVD versions were around the corner!!). Things are pretty spontaneous and almost raw in many places, so much so that I have to wonder what sort of antics were going on off camera. I don't much care for the ones from '70 and '71, though...5 seconds of the Hager Twins is too much for me, plus it's very strange to see the Buckaroos playing Gibson guitars.

Is it just me, or does Mr. Mathis seem a bit likkered-up whenever he's on camera?

[Buckocaster51]

Is it just me, or does Mr. Mathis seem a bit likkered-up whenever he's on camera?[/quote]

You talking about the Foreman? He only gets $36/week you know. <g>

I think he is one of the Mathis brothers who were the chief sponsors of the show.

Just a hanger on though as he apparently never rated a Nudie Suit.

Bill Mack, the DJ and writer of Leann Rhimes' "Blue" also hosts one. I listened to Mack on some Dallas-Ft Worth station a whole bunch during the 60s and early 70s.

[Redd Volkaert]

Trivia;

Quote:
In the booklet there is a picture of a very young Don holding a late 50's white blonde tele behind him is a tweed 4~10 bassman with a big Buck Owens logo stenciled on the brown grillcloth....I'd kill for that amp!!!!!!

Bill Hullett


That big 'Buck Owens' on the grill cloth was painted by hand by a local sign painter, the father of Don Markham (Merles longtime sax player & earlier Bucks bass player & later sax player, {The Bakersfield Brass}) 8) 8)

What a cool thread Bill!!
Redd

[fezz parka]

Originally Posted by Bill Hullett

I've got a boxed set of Buck Owens (3 Cds ) and a killer booklet put out on Rhino...R2 71016.

In the booklet there is a picture of a very young Don holding a late 50's white blonde tele behind him is a tweed 4~10 bassman with a big Buck Owens logo stenciled on the brown grillcloth....I'd kill for that amp!!!!!!

Bill Hullett

Bill, can you check who the remastering guy(s) were on the box set? I can't find any credits on the web. I'm curious if Bill Inglot & Dan Hersch worked on this one. That could explain the thinness and brightness factor.:D

[txjonc]

I know the Silver and Gold Sparkle Tele's were made for Buck, Don and another for one of the Fender guys, the pictures from the 60's show them with maple cap necks and I've seen recent pictures of Buck with a Silver Sparkle with a Rosewood board. Did he change the neck? Is this a newer Tele?

[spyder]

Ho...the couple times I was around Owens and the Buckaroos...they threw their amps on chairs...tuned up a little and pulled the trigger....it was quick-hitter concerts at its best....I remember one show ...following a quick setup...Owens strapped on his telecaster and remarked to no one in particular...*do we need to tune up any?*...to my knowledge, the band tuned pretty much to standard pitch.....as Mr Hullett comments...I've always felt the detuned stuff on the albums was to accomadate the vocals one way or the other....later, spyder

[ne4tt]

from the booklet.

jamie

[holndav]

One is from my birthday...as in day and year...cool!

I just tuned one of my teles to Eb last night before reading this today...cosmic coincidence? I think not.



Beee-oootiful guitar!

My first comment upon seeing the DVD was how much a part of Buck's show Don was, and how I understood how Buck never really was the same after Don. Sorry if that offends anyone but those harmonies and the fun they seemed to always be having on stage were just amazing.

My father in law's first comment..."Hey, those are the faces I've been trying to teach you to make while you play, David"!

Thanks for the comments: I love that collection. It stays in the rotation of my car CD player, has since I got it.

David

[ne4tt]

from the booklet.

[ne4tt]

Remastering and multitrack mixdown by Bill Inglot,
Engineered byJohn Strother.

from the booklet.

[rcrecelius]

Does anyone have the Live at the White House album? Its been a long time since I played along with that album but I think TBGT is in F on that recording. But that was on vinyl too...maybe mine was playing a bit fast.

I love all this BO talk...I remember once as a teenager cruising the streets and "hangin out" I became aquainted with this guy that I had never met before that night. We BS'd about various things and finally the topic turned to music. He said he liked BO but the way he said it...he said it as if he knew I was gonna make fun of him or something. Of course to that I was like hell yeah, me too!
BTW...I was a teenager in the early 80's when most teens didnt even know who BO was unless their parents watched Hee Haw.

[Bill Hullett]

I'm glad that you guys enjoyed the Buck & Don stuff...Its interesting to try and backwards research why they sometimes didwhat they did....

Chris.......

That tuning link is wierd!!!! I'll stick to A=440 thank you!


Telewhacker......I agree with you once they had tuned flat they would have chosen to stay that way for the entire show...I've done a bunch of TV and they absolutely hate it when you stop...they want to (at all costs) keep the tape rolling as if it were live even though its taped...the same amount of time for commercials etc...just as if you were live on the air!!! It wouldn't suprize me if some of the guests sang to their records too....I haven't seen those shows in about 30 years I'll have to get a copy and check em out they're killer!!!!! The next time you put on an episode try to envision you stepping up to the plate with a band and running that show non stop at the same pace that you're watching it....it'll give you a whole nother dose of repect for them!


Tele 295.....re: tapespeed....I can't say for sure but I know that with my own experience to alter a song as much as a fulll 1/2 step really starts messin with the whole sonic deal.....


Mark Davis......Incredible!!!!! Kinda takes the mystique outta the Buckaroos don't it!

Fretmonkey.......It would be ashame for your wife to think that you didn't appreciate her gift to you.....just keep watchin and show her how much you care for her!!!



Redd.........Thats cool!!!!!!! sooo when do I get the amp??????????????



Fezz.....you're correct on the remaster credit Bill Inglot!

Spyder......I saw B & the Buckeroos circa 1969 and it was the same way ....they were at De Anza college in San Jose ,Ca on the football field on the bed of a flatbed semi trailer I was directly in front of Don and Buck and visited with Don for a few short minutes at the end of the show as they were breaking down their own amps...(it was a MUCH different time in those days!!!!) .it was about as formal of a concert as going to see your buddies play at a nieghbors B~B~Que! It was fantasic!!!!!!!!! I figured it out the other day that Don was a whopping 28 years old when I saw him.........WOW! sadly He died at only 33

Holindav
I agree.....seeing Buck and Don work in the flesh, you got the feeling that they truely enjoyed working together!

Terry......
The Booklet came with the Rhino box set....I'm lovin hearing this stuff again....I pull it out about every 5/6 years and it still thrills me every time I do!

Bill Hullett

[Kingtone]

I found this and thought it may be of interest.....

Buck live

[Ramblin Ray]

I lived in Tacoma, Wa. from '75 to '87, and got to play with guys who knew Buck back in his early days there. Was thrilled to play with Nokie Edwards a bit, who also played with Buck on occasion. Apparently, there was a vibrant Country Music scene on Pacific Avenue back in the '60's.

[Paul in Colorado]

I way be way off base here, but I have another theory about the tunings. Maybe Buck tuned his guitar to what he thought was an "E" without using a reference pitch and everyone tuned to him. I remember bands doing that all the time when I first started out. "I tuned it to the piano at home, but it's been in the trunk of my car all day."

[jam]

Seeing Buck in Bakersfield last summer was a real pilgrimage for me--definitely one of those "boy am I glad I did that" experiences. Just walking around the Crystal Palace and seeing all that memorabilia in real life was intoxicating.

JAM

[0le FUZZY]

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<li>This iss the stuff a inner-NET junkie, TELECASTER lovin rascal like me dreams about and why I hang in no matter watt.



Please visit my page

[fezz parka]

That explains the extra brightness & thin-ness. Maybe Bob Irwin at Sundazed will get a crack at more of the Buck catalog. That guy has a great pair of ears. Of the Inglot remasters I own, I actually remaster his remasters so it doesn't tear my head off. :D

[trag-o-caster]

Originally Posted by Bill Hullett

a Trag Quote....... Trying to find the happy medium between Buck Owens and Jimi Hendrix...............

No wonder you were confused as a child!!%%&&(*?

Bill Hullett

Ya like that do ya? I had my dad, and his fiddle one one side of me, and my big brother and his record collection on the other.

Then there was Mama - who didn't approve of NONE of it!

Devils music y'know?

[ne4tt]

From the booklet.



From Jerry Brightman-Slide Station

"Gene Moles custom paint."

[trag-o-caster]

WOW! That bottom picture....

Ol' Buck really means business, whatever he's a-doin' there!

[jlrich]

In the recent issue of Country Weekly magazine there is an article on Buck, with great picture of him and a red,white & blue tele. 8)

[tdowns]

[Buckocaster51]

I put this one together out of eBay parts and painted it with Krylon. <g>

http://www.guttenberg.k12.ia.us/dikk...asterFront.jpg

Now if I can just learn Buckaroo.

[Donnie Skaggs]

Yee Haw---this is making me ready for the twangfest on Broadway tonight!!! I love all the trivia and pics you guys have of Buck and Don--makes me proud to play a tele. :D :D :D :D

[ne4tt]

Buck Owens & The Buckaroos on Sundazed