Roy's pots ...

flip · May 23rd, 2003, 09:07 PM

Being a huge fan of Roy Buchanan's I've been working on absorbing his patented volume swells and tone wah's into my style over the last few years, with OK results. But ...

Recently I read that the pots on Nancy's volume and tone controls were such that they were 75% open with only a quarter turn from completely rolled off - a quick taper I guess you'd call it.

The stock pots on my 52RI have a lot slower taper than that, which means that there's a lot off rolling up to do before I can get the volume up suffiently for the swell effect to kick in nicely, especially at lower amp volumes. Same with the tone pot. Either I need a much longer pinky or ...

Anyone have any idea what value the pots need to be to achieve or approximate Roy's setup? I reckon this would help a lot. Course no one is ever going to play 'em like him but its a great effect to have in your toolkit if you can get it right, especially for blues and such.

Preferably I'd like it so that the new pots don't change or colour the tone too much, just the taper if ya know what i mean.

.Any advice appreciated.

Impala · May 28th, 2003, 10:21 PM

that effect. Remember he was a friend of Roy's; that's where he got the idea definitely. Maybe someone knows the specs on Fender's Danny Gatton Model and can help you out. I've also heard about linear taper versus audio taper pots. I can't recall right now but by specifying one or the other you're sure to get what you're after. Good luck!

Jim Collins · May 28th, 2003, 10:57 PM

You have audio taper pots, and that is what you want.

Over the years, audio taper pots have changed. They are not built with the same taper they used to be built with. You might find some that have tapers like the old days, but is it worth it? Maybe, but I don't think so.

Personally, I think the real magic behind Roy's volume swells was in the amp settings. He dimed all his amp's controls except for the reverb control. He controlled everything from the guitar's volume and tone controls. In other words, the amp was louder and brighter than he would normally need, and he'd typically play with the volume and tone controls of the guitar backed off.

When the amp is that loud, volume swells are a lot easier, and the particular taper of the pot is less of an issue. What is important is the looseness of the pot -- how easy is it to turn the thing -- and how smooth is the jump from off to on -- does it go from no volume to too much in an instant? If your volume doesn't have an unacceptable jump like that, and it is easy enough to turn, leave it alone.

Mark Davis · May 28th, 2003, 11:52 PM

When Seymore Duncan looked at Roys 53 Tele Nancy he said it was totally stock even had the original wiring with the muffled neck pickup sound.

SD actually used Roys guitar to make the wiring diagram for an old Tele.

When Gatton and Roy were in DC Roy took one of his Teles to Gatton cause the tone control pot went out.

Gatton put in a new pot and Roy accused Gatton of stealing the pickups cause the tone was so different from the original sound. As the story goes they got into a big heated discussion and werent as good of friends after that.

But the Tele Roy used on all those Polydor albums was a totally stock 53 Tele played wide open thru a Vibrolux Reverb.

flip · May 29th, 2003, 02:06 AM

Thanks to Impala, Jim and Mark. Great advice. So Nancy WAS stock!

I agree that the swell effect would be easier to pull off with the amp's volume controls completely dimed. Unfortunately I don't play in large enough venues to do that. But I'll take your advice and keep the pots as they are, and instead just keep on playing it until the pots loosen up some for a smoother dial-in.

As regards the Gatton/Roy relationship I read in the Carson bio that Gatton's guitar tech allegedly ruined a/the pickup on Nancy one time when Roy leant her to Gatton, which is what I thought caused bust up between them. Roy retired her soon after.

Who knows? Thanks once again.

Mark Davis · May 29th, 2003, 02:21 AM

I think Gatton did some tricks to the pots to make them turn smoother like bending every other wiper back or something to that effect.

Jim Campilongo · May 29th, 2003, 09:03 AM

....and he said his Vibrolux wasn't on 10 when he recorded his 1st album . It made sense to me on my next listening of that record.
I think some of the most dramatic tone and volume swells I've ever heard are on "Wayfairing Pilgram " ( from the album ?? ) Man , that guitar is crying !

Good thread ! -Jim

sean001 · May 29th, 2003, 04:34 PM

Quote:

As regards the Gatton/Roy relationship I read in the Carson bio that Gatton's guitar tech allegedly ruined a/the pickup on Nancy one time when Roy leant her to Gatton, which is what I thought caused bust up between them. Roy retired her soon after.

Here's flame for the fire and something I have wondered since reading the Roy biography....could Danny Gatton's guitar tech, the one who supposedly ruined "Nancy" have been none other than Jay Monterose? Not saying that is the case but it is not that much of a stretch...is it?

Mark Davis · May 29th, 2003, 05:04 PM

Jay M was Gattons guitar tech but I always thought Gatton did all his own work. Great stories about Gatton punching a hold in an archtop with a screwdriver for a pot to be mounted in etc the magic dingus box etc were all built by Danny.

Adam Waldron · May 29th, 2003, 05:43 PM

Keep it coming folks....

Love to hear the Roy and Danny stories....

Thanks,

Adam

MandyMarie · May 29th, 2003, 07:16 PM

I agree!

Keep sharing those stories guys so we can keep reading!

GREAT avatar too by the way Mark! If you include that photo of Roy this thread has covered almost all my Tele lovin' bases :D

Mark Davis · May 29th, 2003, 08:45 PM

Mandy here is the full size one. Roy Nichols taught Roy Buchanan alot of stuff. Roy B lived in Pixley 45 miles from Bakersfield. Roy Nichols could play that screaming Tele blues and Western Swing all styles.

Ringo · May 29th, 2003, 10:15 PM

I could be wrong but seems like I've read that a lot of guys who like to do volume swells ( like Roy & Danny) used to use the sealed Bournes pots, some were supposed to be so smooth and fast that you could roll the volume pot back hard and it would hit the end and come back up some!
I have played some guitars that the pots are super smooth and easier to do volume swells with.

Beyond that, there ARE differences in pots even among the same brand , some are just "looser" than others, and the tapers vary as well.
Also I think you can "adjust" the taper somewhat by adding a cap/resistor somehow?

Don Mare · May 30th, 2003, 12:45 AM

Hi,
I do a tribute thing around here called, *Buck Cannon*... a pun for *Buchanan*. Because the project is doing so darn well!
(I just now bought *www.buckcannon.com* and I'll have the site under construction soon.)
The band is reciving lots of attention.... from across the US and here by a few members of *The Southern California Blues Society*

OK...................................
Finding the Volume pot is the hardest... First you'll need loose ones... second you need to install at least 6 of those loose ones..and to listen to the swell span, Then I use the best one.
Prior to being employed at Lace I would beg the guitar stores to let me feel the loosness of the pot... by going through all of there stock! ( cool stores around these parts) but let me warn you after market pots are usally all tight... I hit six stores and came home empty handed once!

GOOD NEWS...Finding the Tone pot... not so bad at all,,, any loose one will do,
THE TONE CAP will actually squeez it all down to where it does every thing within about 3 increments..... I use .1 thru .2 and toss out the .o22 or .o47's.

Diming a 35 Fender watt amp actually squishes it up... and it is not as sharp or really as loud and painfull as the lower settings of 4-5. It sorta stalls the notes and builds volume momintium as the note is held... Btw reverb is at 2.
It really messes with the amp and it really reacts very differently then at regular settings... it can actually be not as loud depending on what your playing at the time...
Funny thing at this setting..... is the guitars tone knob...it will almost totally silence that roaring dimed 35 watter...
even a .022 tone cap when rolled back at the guitar almost kills the volume to a pratice level.

Finally... the best thing I learned to do to sound like Roy was to think like him...
Don't burn up your best chops till the end of a solo... or you'll fizzle.
build your solos ...slow and easy at first then build volume and speed to a climax at the end... some time the climax is just one note or that first soft like you started with.
Think of a good preacher workin a room... you can't just get up their and say a few short words then start yelling real fast then jump back and forth between the two...
You would scare off your members!..most guitarist I hear locally at the jams "Spin out lomg before the end of their solo.
Its a maturity thing learning to save your best for last...
do it and the room like the church will follow it and shout and jest right to the end where you climax them.

Dagnabit now.... I just gave away my secret!!!

~~~Good luck with your guitars & Roy tunes guys!.~~~
Don Mare,
"Buck Cannon" Blues Band

Mark Davis · May 30th, 2003, 02:04 AM

Don If your ever close to Bakersfield give me an email.

I'd love to hear your Roy B tribute band.

Pedalworld · May 30th, 2003, 03:36 AM

:D

MandyMarie · May 30th, 2003, 04:37 PM

Mark, I didn't realize that! Thanks so much - that's REALLY cool to know! I'm never less than amazed by Roy (Nichols that is, I should have said that in my previous post) 's tastefulness. He sure has influenced a lot of people, he'll also definitely be missed.

By the way, I recently added 1MEG pots to my Esquire and I couldn't be happier, I should have done it a loooong time ago...

Tele295 · May 30th, 2003, 04:58 PM

Don - I can't wait to hear the Buck Cannon band.

At the time Roy's pickups were allegedly screwed up, I think Danny still had his repair shop (in Berwyn Heights?). Apparently, there were some overzealous assistant techs working there that had practices not good for business. In Jay's defense, I don't think Monterose was on the scene. There is another story about what created the rift between Danny and Roy: Danny had loaned Roy his pristine 59 Twin, and it came back with cigarette burns all over the top. I can't vouch for the truth of this any more than I can vouch for the pickup thing. But they both make good stories.

Flip- you don't need to play in a huge place for the dimed amp/rolled off guitar trick, until you really open her up. Just keep it down, and you can play a pretty big amp in a small place. Dig the rolled off neck pickup on the final/fadeout verse of Messiah - what a cool tone! I think Roy used it again in "Hot Cha" from Live Stock, and on a bootleg of "Soul Dressing." One of my favorite Roy tones.

Mark- I seem to remember the screwdriver punching being done on Danny's J-200 RI for the volume knob.

Don Mare · May 30th, 2003, 06:42 PM

Seymour Duncan,
Simply thinks NANCY's pots were the culprut once changed to the newer ones the old DC rating changed...
causing the same old pups to sound way different..

Thats the story i prefer...

BTW>>> a quick toss together form of the BUCK CANNON BLUES BAND may play in the Bar Room of Martinis blues Lounge 12-5 sunday June 1st. Huntington Beach CA.. www.martinblues.com

Everyone who can Please try to make it out...

or some of you please make it out agian...*TELE295*

Kingtone · May 30th, 2003, 07:03 PM

I belive I heard the same story as Don, Seymor said that the original pots in Nancy had a resistance reading of around 239K, and after they were changed out the new ones could of been as high as 270K. weather or not we think that it would have that much effect on tone Roy sure did.....

May 23rd, 2003, 09:07 PM	#1 (permalink)
flip TDPRI Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 47	Roy's pots ... Being a huge fan of Roy Buchanan's I've been working on absorbing his patented volume swells and tone wah's into my style over the last few years, with OK results. But ... Recently I read that the pots on Nancy's volume and tone controls were such that they were 75% open with only a quarter turn from completely rolled off - a quick taper I guess you'd call it. The stock pots on my 52RI have a lot slower taper than that, which means that there's a lot off rolling up to do before I can get the volume up suffiently for the swell effect to kick in nicely, especially at lower amp volumes. Same with the tone pot. Either I need a much longer pinky or ... Anyone have any idea what value the pots need to be to achieve or approximate Roy's setup? I reckon this would help a lot. Course no one is ever going to play 'em like him but its a great effect to have in your toolkit if you can get it right, especially for blues and such. Preferably I'd like it so that the new pots don't change or colour the tone too much, just the taper if ya know what i mean. .Any advice appreciated. __________________ Flip "Swing is based in confidence. It is the grace that you acquire after years of paying dues. Swing is the dividing line between those who can play and those who can't" Sonny Sharrock

May 28th, 2003, 10:21 PM	#2 (permalink)
Impala Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: San Juan, Puerto Rico, USA Posts: 253	Danny Gatton got the pots on his '53 reworked to get... that effect. Remember he was a friend of Roy's; that's where he got the idea definitely. Maybe someone knows the specs on Fender's Danny Gatton Model and can help you out. I've also heard about linear taper versus audio taper pots. I can't recall right now but by specifying one or the other you're sure to get what you're after. Good luck!

May 29th, 2003, 02:06 AM	#5 (permalink)
flip TDPRI Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 47	Thanks guys Thanks to Impala, Jim and Mark. Great advice. So Nancy WAS stock! I agree that the swell effect would be easier to pull off with the amp's volume controls completely dimed. Unfortunately I don't play in large enough venues to do that. But I'll take your advice and keep the pots as they are, and instead just keep on playing it until the pots loosen up some for a smoother dial-in. As regards the Gatton/Roy relationship I read in the Carson bio that Gatton's guitar tech allegedly ruined a/the pickup on Nancy one time when Roy leant her to Gatton, which is what I thought caused bust up between them. Roy retired her soon after. Who knows? Thanks once again. __________________ Flip "Swing is based in confidence. It is the grace that you acquire after years of paying dues. Swing is the dividing line between those who can play and those who can't" Sonny Sharrock

May 29th, 2003, 09:03 AM	#7 (permalink)
Jim Campilongo Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Brooklyn , New York Posts: 258	I read an interview with Roy.... ....and he said his Vibrolux wasn't on 10 when he recorded his 1st album . It made sense to me on my next listening of that record. I think some of the most dramatic tone and volume swells I've ever heard are on "Wayfairing Pilgram " ( from the album ?? ) Man , that guitar is crying ! Good thread ! -Jim

May 29th, 2003, 10:15 PM	#13 (permalink)
Ringo Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Memphis TN Posts: 1,910	pots I could be wrong but seems like I've read that a lot of guys who like to do volume swells ( like Roy & Danny) used to use the sealed Bournes pots, some were supposed to be so smooth and fast that you could roll the volume pot back hard and it would hit the end and come back up some! I have played some guitars that the pots are super smooth and easier to do volume swells with. Beyond that, there ARE differences in pots even among the same brand , some are just "looser" than others, and the tapers vary as well. Also I think you can "adjust" the taper somewhat by adding a cap/resistor somehow?

May 28th, 2003, 10:57 PM	#3 (permalink)
Jim Collins Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 309	You have audio taper pots, and that is what you want. Over the years, audio taper pots have changed. They are not built with the same taper they used to be built with. You might find some that have tapers like the old days, but is it worth it? Maybe, but I don't think so. Personally, I think the real magic behind Roy's volume swells was in the amp settings. He dimed all his amp's controls except for the reverb control. He controlled everything from the guitar's volume and tone controls. In other words, the amp was louder and brighter than he would normally need, and he'd typically play with the volume and tone controls of the guitar backed off. When the amp is that loud, volume swells are a lot easier, and the particular taper of the pot is less of an issue. What is important is the looseness of the pot -- how easy is it to turn the thing -- and how smooth is the jump from off to on -- does it go from no volume to too much in an instant? If your volume doesn't have an unacceptable jump like that, and it is easy enough to turn, leave it alone.

May 28th, 2003, 11:52 PM	#4 (permalink)
Mark Davis Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bakersfield Ca. Age: 58 Posts: 12,476	When Seymore Duncan looked at Roys 53 Tele Nancy he said it was totally stock even had the original wiring with the muffled neck pickup sound. SD actually used Roys guitar to make the wiring diagram for an old Tele. When Gatton and Roy were in DC Roy took one of his Teles to Gatton cause the tone control pot went out. Gatton put in a new pot and Roy accused Gatton of stealing the pickups cause the tone was so different from the original sound. As the story goes they got into a big heated discussion and werent as good of friends after that. But the Tele Roy used on all those Polydor albums was a totally stock 53 Tele played wide open thru a Vibrolux Reverb.

May 29th, 2003, 02:21 AM	#6 (permalink)
Mark Davis Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bakersfield Ca. Age: 58 Posts: 12,476	I think Gatton did some tricks to the pots to make them turn smoother like bending every other wiper back or something to that effect.

May 29th, 2003, 05:04 PM	#9 (permalink)
Mark Davis Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bakersfield Ca. Age: 58 Posts: 12,476	Jay M was Gattons guitar tech but I always thought Gatton did all his own work. Great stories about Gatton punching a hold in an archtop with a screwdriver for a pot to be mounted in etc the magic dingus box etc were all built by Danny.

May 29th, 2003, 05:43 PM	#10 (permalink)
Adam Waldron Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Adelaide, Australia Posts: 607	Keep it coming folks.... Love to hear the Roy and Danny stories.... Thanks, Adam

May 29th, 2003, 07:16 PM	#11 (permalink)
MandyMarie Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Indianapolis, IN Age: 28 Posts: 2,466 65 Photos	I agree! Keep sharing those stories guys so we can keep reading! GREAT avatar too by the way Mark! If you include that photo of Roy this thread has covered almost all my Tele lovin' bases :D

May 29th, 2003, 08:45 PM	#12 (permalink)
Mark Davis Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bakersfield Ca. Age: 58 Posts: 12,476	Mandy here is the full size one. Roy Nichols taught Roy Buchanan alot of stuff. Roy B lived in Pixley 45 miles from Bakersfield. Roy Nichols could play that screaming Tele blues and Western Swing all styles.

May 30th, 2003, 12:45 AM	#14 (permalink)
Don Mare Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Long Beach, CA. Age: 50 Posts: 455	Buck-Cannon a Roy tribute blues band Hi, I do a tribute thing around here called, Buck Cannon... a pun for Buchanan. Because the project is doing so darn well! (I just now bought www.buckcannon.com and I'll have the site under construction soon.) The band is reciving lots of attention.... from across the US and here by a few members of The Southern California Blues Society OK................................... Finding the Volume pot is the hardest... First you'll need loose ones... second you need to install at least 6 of those loose ones..and to listen to the swell span, Then I use the best one. Prior to being employed at Lace I would beg the guitar stores to let me feel the loosness of the pot... by going through all of there stock! ( cool stores around these parts) but let me warn you after market pots are usally all tight... I hit six stores and came home empty handed once! GOOD NEWS...Finding the Tone pot... not so bad at all,,, any loose one will do, THE TONE CAP will actually squeez it all down to where it does every thing within about 3 increments..... I use .1 thru .2 and toss out the .o22 or .o47's. Diming a 35 Fender watt amp actually squishes it up... and it is not as sharp or really as loud and painfull as the lower settings of 4-5. It sorta stalls the notes and builds volume momintium as the note is held... Btw reverb is at 2. It really messes with the amp and it really reacts very differently then at regular settings... it can actually be not as loud depending on what your playing at the time... Funny thing at this setting..... is the guitars tone knob...it will almost totally silence that roaring dimed 35 watter... even a .022 tone cap when rolled back at the guitar almost kills the volume to a pratice level. Finally... the best thing I learned to do to sound like Roy was to think like him... Don't burn up your best chops till the end of a solo... or you'll fizzle. build your solos ...slow and easy at first then build volume and speed to a climax at the end... some time the climax is just one note or that first soft like you started with. Think of a good preacher workin a room... you can't just get up their and say a few short words then start yelling real fast then jump back and forth between the two... You would scare off your members!..most guitarist I hear locally at the jams "Spin out lomg before the end of their solo. Its a maturity thing learning to save your best for last... do it and the room like the church will follow it and shout and jest right to the end where you climax them. Dagnabit now.... I just gave away my secret!!! ~~~Good luck with your guitars & Roy tunes guys!.~~~ Don Mare, "Buck Cannon" Blues Band

May 30th, 2003, 02:04 AM	#15 (permalink)
Mark Davis Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bakersfield Ca. Age: 58 Posts: 12,476	Don If your ever close to Bakersfield give me an email. I'd love to hear your Roy B tribute band.

May 30th, 2003, 03:36 AM	#16 (permalink)
Pedalworld Banned Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 936	pots... :D

May 30th, 2003, 04:37 PM	#17 (permalink)
MandyMarie Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Indianapolis, IN Age: 28 Posts: 2,466 65 Photos	Mark, I didn't realize that! Thanks so much - that's REALLY cool to know! I'm never less than amazed by Roy (Nichols that is, I should have said that in my previous post) 's tastefulness. He sure has influenced a lot of people, he'll also definitely be missed. By the way, I recently added 1MEG pots to my Esquire and I couldn't be happier, I should have done it a loooong time ago...

May 30th, 2003, 04:58 PM	#18 (permalink)
Tele295 Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Haunted Amp, CA Posts: 3,265 14 Photos	Don - I can't wait to hear the Buck Cannon band. At the time Roy's pickups were allegedly screwed up, I think Danny still had his repair shop (in Berwyn Heights?). Apparently, there were some overzealous assistant techs working there that had practices not good for business. In Jay's defense, I don't think Monterose was on the scene. There is another story about what created the rift between Danny and Roy: Danny had loaned Roy his pristine 59 Twin, and it came back with cigarette burns all over the top. I can't vouch for the truth of this any more than I can vouch for the pickup thing. But they both make good stories. Flip- you don't need to play in a huge place for the dimed amp/rolled off guitar trick, until you really open her up. Just keep it down, and you can play a pretty big amp in a small place. Dig the rolled off neck pickup on the final/fadeout verse of Messiah - what a cool tone! I think Roy used it again in "Hot Cha" from Live Stock, and on a bootleg of "Soul Dressing." One of my favorite Roy tones. Mark- I seem to remember the screwdriver punching being done on Danny's J-200 RI for the volume knob. __________________ "Turn it up and it doesn't need any reverb." - Danny Gatton www.dannygatton.info Tiger Town Aces - Music That Bites Back In Redd we trust! Free Bill Kirchen! If lawyers are disbarred and clergymen defrocked, doesn't it follow that electricians can be delighted, musicians denoted, cowboys deranged, models deposed, tree surgeons debarked, and dry cleaners depressed?

May 30th, 2003, 06:42 PM	#19 (permalink)
Don Mare Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Long Beach, CA. Age: 50 Posts: 455	Seymour Duncan, Simply thinks NANCY's pots were the culprut once changed to the newer ones the old DC rating changed... causing the same old pups to sound way different.. Thats the story i prefer... BTW>>> a quick toss together form of the BUCK CANNON BLUES BAND may play in the Bar Room of Martinis blues Lounge 12-5 sunday June 1st. Huntington Beach CA.. www.martinblues.com Everyone who can Please try to make it out... or some of you please make it out agian...TELE295

May 30th, 2003, 07:03 PM	#20 (permalink)
Kingtone Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Camillus, NY Age: 49 Posts: 538 5 Photos	I belive I heard the same story as Don, Seymor said that the original pots in Nancy had a resistance reading of around 239K, and after they were changed out the new ones could of been as high as 270K. weather or not we think that it would have that much effect on tone Roy sure did.....