Neck Radius Question

[tc6969]

Whats the flattest off the shelf neck I can get without a bunch of custom work.

I'm gassing for an Esquire slider and I just want to bolt it on, do a new nut and go to work.

I know I've seen 12" and maybe 14". Is that about the flattest?

[newtwanger]

Many sell compound 10-16" very nice.

[cowardm]

Doesn't Warmoth make a 10-16" compound?

[Lafayette]

I have experience with Warmoth and USACG necks. I'm partial to USACG, as their customer service is head and shoulders above Warmoth. USACG can do any radius you want and even offer you advice if you're unsure (e.g. if you want flatter but still need to bend, you'll be placing your order with an actual guitar player who has a frame of reference).

[ficklepie]

Yes, Warmoth has a 10-16" compound available.

Can't offer any comparisons of customer service at Warmoth vs. USAGC, but after I ordered from Warmoth last year, I received a call from them asking if the Earvana nut I also ordered was going to be for that particular neck. Turns out I should have ordered a flat base, not a curved base, on the nut, and the guy's call saved me some trouble. But USAGC is much more of a custom shop than Warmoth, so I would expect their customer service to be better overall.

[woodman]

at USACG, you get the personal touch. Warmoth was like that back in the day, but my theory is they grew so much it ain't like that anymore. i've never gotten bad service from Warmoth, but it has gotten less personal.

[tc6969]

Looks like its game on boys!

I just scored a sweet swamp ash Esquire body that's already crying out for a La Cabronita style pick guard.

I will be talking to the fine folks at USACG on Monday!

ETA copied from their site

"Our 7-1/4" to 9-1/2" compound radius, the 10"-16" compound radius, and any straight radius is available upon request at no additional cost. 7-1/4", 9-1/2", 10", 12" are the most common straight radii."

[tc6969]

Somewhere along the line, I need to learn how to play one of these darned things!

[BigDaddyLH]

I wonder if you can just ask for a flat (infinite radius) fretboard? Can't get bigger than infinity

[jhundt]

you could do something bigger than infinity - go for negative 12" radius...

[A440]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLH

I wonder if you can just ask for a flat (infinite radius) fretboard? Can't get bigger than infinity

Darn it...I'm getting a headache trying to imagine a circle with an infinite radius now.

[jefrs]

A straight line is a circle of infinite radius.

[Telemarkman]

Originally Posted by jefrs

A straight line is a circle of infinite radius.

Yeah, but then it's no longer a circle, I guess ...

[A440]

Originally Posted by jefrs

A straight line is a circle of infinite radius.

wouldn't a straight line have to connect with itself to be a true circle? if a straight line was truly infinite it would never connect with itself.

[Frontier9]

Is it better to say a straight line has an infinite radius? (leave out that circle part)

[A440]

Originally Posted by Telemarkman

Yeah, but then it's no longer a circle, I guess ...

I agree (I think!). I don't think a straight line can be a circle in a pure mathematical sense. Although within the physical universe it is possible that if you travel a very long distance from point A in a straight line, you will arrive back at point A, creating a circle with a very large, but not infinite, radius.

Who would have thought that telecasters could inspire such a debate.

[tc6969]

I cut a 12" piece of string and drew a radius with a pen and 12" is still pretty humpy.

I did find Musikraft and they offer a 16 in radius.

Those quarter sawn necks are sweet!

[BigDaddyLH]

The math is pretty easy. For example, when the neck is 2" wide, the hump is 0.0417" (12" radius) or 0.0313" (16" radius) high. The difference is a hundredth of an inch. Can someone check my math?

[tc6969]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLH

The math is pretty easy. For example, when the neck is 2" wide, the hump is 0.0417" (12" radius) or 0.0313" (16" radius) high. The difference is a hundredth of an inch. Can someone check my math?

So unless I go full house custom and get a truly flat neck, I wont be able to tell the difference between 12" 1nd 16"?

[jefrs]

Originally Posted by Telemarkman

Yeah, but then it's no longer a circle, I guess ...

No, it's still a circle.

formula x^2 + y^2 = r^2

Which probably means the circumference of the universe is a straight line.

And why the Earth is flat.

[smsuryan]

i have a warmoth neck..i think its 10-16...with 6230 frets...but i havent put it on a guitar yet! still sitting next to the warmoth body i havent done anything with either...i guess i need to stop playing for a bit and put it together!!

[Telemarkman]

Originally Posted by jefrs

No, it's still a circle.

Then draw it ... Hee, hee!

Originally Posted by jefrs

And why the Earth is flat.

Well, I already knew that ...

[boris bubbanov]

Originally Posted by tc6969

So unless I go full house custom and get a truly flat neck, I wont be able to tell the difference between 12" 1nd 16"?

Once you get to 16", things get pretty subtle.

Hey, the Guitar Centers in the Orlando area each had a Spalted Maple HH Tele the last time I was in each store. Special Korean Fender model, 18" radius. Call, see if they might still have one, and play that for the feel of it.

++

10-16" compound radius is one of the things that Warmoth actually does routinely well; so IF that's what you end up wanting. My suggestion is, avoid the "Pro" version, get the Vintage Modern ones.

++

Following up on Woodman's sage advice, I think the reason Warmoth once had a very cool reputation was: Because Tommy Rosamond worked there in those days, way back then.

[dconeill]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLH

I wonder if you can just ask for a flat (infinite radius) fretboard? Can't get bigger than infinity

Just being weird here.

Did you know there are various levels of infinity?

The set of positive integer numbers is infinite.

The set of all integer numbers is infinite, but is twice as large as the set of positive integer numbers

The set of all rational numbers is infinite, but is infinitely larger than the set of all integer numbers.

The set of all real numbers is infinite, but is infinitely larger than the set of all rational numbers.

And so on.

So - how flat do you want your fingerboard?

[BigDaddyLH]

Originally Posted by dconeill

Just being weird here.

Did you know there are various levels of infinity?

The set of positive integer numbers is infinite.

The set of all integer numbers is infinite, but is twice as large as the set of positive integer numbers

The set of all rational numbers is infinite, but is infinitely larger than the set of all integer numbers.

The set of all real numbers is infinite, but is infinitely larger than the set of all rational numbers.

And so on.

So - how flat do you want your fingerboard?

I studied math and computer science in another lifetime, so I know about cardinality: aleph-naught and all that. So I can be picky and point out that whilst the set of positive integers is a proper subset of the set of all integers, it's "the same size" since they can be put into one-to-one correspondence. The rationals are the same size as well.

But a fat back neck, now that's big!

[BigDaddyLH]

And as for the question "how flat can you go?" -- Is there something wrong about a totally flat neck? Works for classical guitar. I have a vague memory of some shredders going for it as well.

[A440]

Originally Posted by Telemarkman

Then draw it ... Hee, hee!

ROFL

[jjkrause84]

I'm surprised no one has bothered to mention that there are both 9.5 and 10 radii.....do we really need both?

[Runn3r]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLH

And as for the question "how flat can you go?" -- Is there something wrong about a totally flat neck? Works for classical guitar. I have a vague memory of some shredders going for it as well.

...standard on classical guitar which has been around ...oh ...for a hundreds of yrs....

...but then again ...how would one go about gettin da twang and da cowboy chords sounding just right if there isn't a roundish fretboard surface? :D

...totally unpossible ....


...and wht's with all this INFINITY talk?!?


...surely the obvious nomenclature for a flat radiused fretboard surface be ZERO radius ...ie NO radius ....cos err...there is NO circle/cylindrical surface....

[BigDaddyLH]

Originally Posted by Runn3r

...surely the obvious nomenclature for a flat radiused fretboard surface be ZERO radius ...ie NO radius ....cos err...there is NO circle/cylindrical surface....

Zero != No

[Runn3r]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLH

Zero != No

in a wurld where 1 = Yes/True and 0=No/False ...i afraid i have to disagree...

...for disagreement's sake...of course....

[quonsar]

The term "flat radius" is self-contradicting. :P

[nvilletele]

Originally Posted by A440

wouldn't a straight line have to connect with itself to be a true circle? if a straight line was truly infinite it would never connect with itself.

Sorry, but that is not (necessarily) the case. You just have to get out of thinking only in terms of Euclidean geometry. Space is curved . . . though the terminology is itself not completely correct, one "end" of a straight line meets the other "end" at infinity.

Think of two parallel lines . . . under Euclidean concepts, they never meet.
But think of two such parallel lines (line A and line B), and consider a third line (or line segment), going from a point on line A (call this point A') to line B (call this point B). Then keeping the line segment starting at point A', move it from point B' and run along line B. The line segment starting a point A' gets longer and longer as you run it further down line B, going away from point B'.

Then ask at what point (i.e, how far down line B) does the line segment between these two lines stop touching line B and become identical to line A (and parallel to line B) ? At infinity.

Another way of thinking this is that parallel lines do meet . . . . at infinity. Not possible in Eucldean geometry, but easily done in non-Euclidean. Remember, space is curved . . . think of longitude lines . . . they all meet at the poles, but essentially run "parallel" to one another.

Ouch, brain starting to hurt.

[Groovey Records]

so what's the point ?

Theory and practice!

[Dave_Strat]

34A is pretty flat, but a lot of fun to play...

[A440]

Originally Posted by nvilletele

Sorry, but that is not (necessarily) the case. You just have to get out of thinking only in terms of Euclidean geometry. Space is curved . . . though the terminology is itself not completely correct, one "end" of a straight line meets the other "end" at infinity.

Think of two parallel lines . . . under Euclidean concepts, they never meet.
But think of two such parallel lines (line A and line B), and consider a third line (or line segment), going from a point on line A (call this point A') to line B (call this point B). Then keeping the line segment starting at point A', move it from point B' and run along line B. The line segment starting a point A' gets longer and longer as you run it further down line B, going away from point B'.

Then ask at what point (i.e, how far down line B') does the line segment between these two lines stop touching line B' and become identical to line A (and parallel to line B) ? At infinity.

Another way of thinking this is that parallel lines do meet . . . . at infinity. Not possible in Eucldean geometry, but easily done in non-Euclidean. Remember, space is curved . . . think of longitude lines . . . they all meet at the poles, but essentially run "parallel" to one another.

Ouch, brain starting to hurt.

Point taken and agreed with...I should have specified that in Euclidean geometry an infinite straight line would never connect with itself.

[BigDaddyLH]

So guitar necks inhabit a non-euclidean space? I learn something new on TDPRI every day!

[gonzo]

i have a 12" radius custom neck from USACG.


excellent quality.

to me, the 12" radius is the perfect compromise between super flat modern shredder necks, and old school.

there is another element here to custom necks, that has not been discussed...

the truss rod.


the choice here, to me, is the difference between a somewhat dead sounding neck, and one that has the 'tap tone' to it.... one that is lively, and sounds as if it's tranferring lots of good tone vibration.

the 'double' truss rod used in the modern construction versions of the warmoth neck, might make the neck more stable and easier to adjust, but in my opinion, it kills the tone of the neck.

[dconeill]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLH

I studied math and computer science in another lifetime, so I know about cardinality: aleph-naught and all that. So I can be picky and point out that whilst the set of positive integers is a proper subset of the set of all integers, it's "the same size" since they can be put into one-to-one correspondence. The rationals are the same size as well.

When I was in grad school I remember two math profs had a seminar on exactly this question. One argued from your point of view, while the other argued from the point of view I posted earlier. Their arguments were considerably deeper than I can be, but it almost became religious in nature. Some of the faculty supported one, some the other. I certainly can't reproduce their arguments at this late date.

While I understand the mapping argument, the other has a lot of appeal.

[neocaster]

I was told there would be no math...