Help me date my Tele

[Telebuddy]

Hello all,

I have an oldish telecaster and need a bit of a hand in dating it before moving it on (I only have rom for one guitar in my life - my CS Esquire).

Some pics of serial numbers, pots etc have been posted on the following:

http://s258.photobucket.com/albums/h...e/1975%20Tele/

Would appreciate any help/opinions anyone on here can give.

Tanks!

Ian.

[ajgus]

"Help me date my Tele"

Just be yourself. The rest will come naturally.

Seriously though...use the serial number. By the looks of it, I would definitely say '70s. It has that huge hump where the upper bout meets the neck pocket.

[Telebuddy]

Originally Posted by ajgus

"Help me date my Tele"

Just be yourself. The rest will come naturally.

[ajgus]

Check out this site. Select 'Fender', enter your serial number...

http://www.guitardaterproject.org/

[dan1952]

The pots are from the 49th week of 1973, which would lead one to think it's most likely a 1974.

[slack]

Originally Posted by ajgus

Check out this site. Select 'Fender', enter your serial number...

http://www.guitardaterproject.org/

Since you can't date a vintage Fender guitar by the serial number, and neck plates are easily swapped, that site is pretty much useless for anything more than cursory research.

[slack]

Telebuddy, it appears to be 74 or 75. To narrow it down even more you would need to post pics of the neck butt, neck base, neck pocket and there is a code stamped on the bottom of the bridge pickup bobbin (under the baseplate). If you have the info (but not the pics) I would ask what is stamped on the neck butt or base, if the neck pocket has five or six holes in it and what names are stamped there, and what's stamped on the bottom of the bridge pickup bobbin. I would also ask if the F tuners have holes in the bottom of the gear housing, with the shaft visible, or if they are fully enclosed. (Edit: Nevermind about the tuners, I enlarged one of your pics and can see that the tuners are pre-1976.)

[ajgus]

Originally Posted by slack

Since you can't date a vintage Fender guitar by the serial number, and neck plates are easily swapped, that site is pretty much useless for anything more than cursory research.

Point well taken. However, assuming its his and he knows it to be all original, I think its an adequate tool for at least narrowing down the time frame of its origin. No?

[slack]

Originally Posted by ajgus

Point well taken. However, assuming its his and he knows it to be all original, I think its an adequate tool for at least narrowing down the time frame of its origin. No?

I did say "that site is pretty much useless for anything more than cursory research." So yeah, if provenance is known, it is amongst much info on the web that can give someone an idea of how old a guitar is.

It's like the serial number dating info available in the resources section here, and at Fender's site, though - it's incorrect.

[KevinB]

It looks like a very nice guitar - definitely mid 70s. Is there some damage to the back of the neck, or is that just wear? And has it been dropped, or is that just wear from a heavy strap?

Anyway, it's probably worth more than your CS Esquire!

[Telebuddy]

Cheers for the responses so far! Will look at getting some more pics over the weekend.

I'm not the only owner (I'm only 34!) but have had it for about 4 years now. Not sure of it's life before me although it looks like it has been gigged - definitely ageing on the body and possibly some nicotine staining.

As for the neck it has some wear on it and also looks like it has had a little bit of filler to smooth it out.

As far as cost goes I'm really not too sure what something like this would fetch - I really can't see it ever replacing my CS Esquire!

[TG]

Originally Posted by ajgus

"Help me date my Tele"

Just be yourself. The rest will come naturally.

Damn. Beat me to it.

[ajgus]

Originally Posted by TG

Damn. Beat me to it.

An oldie but a goodie

[ole AZ]

Originally Posted by ajgus

"Help me date my Tele"

Just be yourself. The rest will come naturally.

This made me laugh...probably a bit too hard

[Telebuddy]

Originally Posted by slack

Telebuddy, it appears to be 74 or 75. To narrow it down even more you would need to post pics of the neck butt, neck base, neck pocket and there is a code stamped on the bottom of the bridge pickup bobbin (under the baseplate). If you have the info (but not the pics) I would ask what is stamped on the neck butt or base, if the neck pocket has five or six holes in it and what names are stamped there, and what's stamped on the bottom of the bridge pickup bobbin. I would also ask if the F tuners have holes in the bottom of the gear housing, with the shaft visible, or if they are fully enclosed. (Edit: Nevermind about the tuners, I enlarged one of your pics and can see that the tuners are pre-1976.)

I took a quick look last night - the neck pocket and bottom of the neck have five holes in them, obviously 4 for the screws and one extra hole.

Being a doofus I completely forgot to take some phots! Will get some up shortly.

Thanks for all the help so far - it's helping me clear stuff up! Some guy from eBay offered £1300 for it as he said there were clear indications that there were up to 5 years age difference on some of the parts (he didn't confirm which parts though!). Personally I don't really believe what he says so this thread really helps!

[KevinB]

Originally Posted by Telebuddy

Thanks for all the help so far - it's helping me clear stuff up! Some guy from eBay offered £1300 for it as he said there were clear indications that there were up to 5 years age difference on some of the parts (he didn't confirm which parts though!). Personally I don't really believe what he says so this thread really helps!

It's probably worth at least double, if not triple, what he offered!

To date the guitar you should take the neck off - it's very easy to do. The end of the neck will probably (but not necessarily!) have a date stamped on it. You can only see it with the neck off. While you are there. take pictures of any markings on the body's neck pocket.

[Telebuddy]

Originally Posted by KevinB

It's probably worth at least double, if not triple, what he offered!

Seriously? That sounds like a lot of money! I am talking in pounds.

The neck stamp is 13014214.

[KevinB]

Yes, UK pounds.

Here's a nice '79 at Elderly for $2,850.

[slack]

Originally Posted by Telebuddy

The neck stamp is 13014214.

I previously told you the guitar is likely a 74 or 75 model...

The last four digits in that neck stamp indicate 42nd week of 74 (and it was stamped well before the neck was even completed, much less installed on a completed guitar).

It is common (and correct) for the 7th digit in that 70s stamp to represent the year. However, there are lots of examples where that does not make sense (in this case, other clues dating it to the mid 70s and that stamp format not being used in 71). In those cases, like this one, you have to interpret the code in a way that makes sense (do that a lot and you recognize that the code is inconsistent, and sometimes the numbers are transposed).

[Telebuddy]

Originally Posted by slack

I previously told you the guitar is likely a 74 or 75 model...

The last four digits in that neck stamp indicate 42nd week of 74 (and it was stamped well before the neck was even completed, much less installed on a completed guitar).

It is common (and correct) for the 7th digit in that 70s stamp to represent the year. However, there are lots of examples where that does not make sense (in this case, other clues dating it to the mid 70s and that stamp format not being used in 71). In those cases, like this one, you have to interpret the code in a way that makes sense (do that a lot and you recognize that the code is inconsistent, and sometimes the numbers are transposed).

Cheers slack - that helps a lot!

Ian.

[blue metalflake]

Just to add to what Slack has advised, you have a code which may be contradictory to what it seems - I've struggled with such a code since I pulled the neck off my '73 for the first time, around 10 years ago.

As Slack says, code sometimes read model, neck, week, day, year but the last two seem interchangable.

Greg Gagliano did a lot on this and concluded that it was always model, neck,week, year, day.

On that basis, I had a guitar that had all the features of a '73 body, that I bought it in September '73 (and it needed some time to get to Ireland), yet appeared to have a '71 neck (ended 38 1 3). This of course was highly unlikely, as the coding system is recognised as having kicked in in '72. I now believe the last two numbers are transposed, and its week 38, day 1, '73.

Its more like looking at all the available evidence, and using it as a whole. Nothing on its own can be trusted to give an exact date, as they're all individual manufacturing codes/dates, rather than being co ordinated. Just like Slack says, use a bit of intuition and common sense, and hope to get near the right answer.

Bet you have a great guitar though.

[Telebuddy]

Here are some more pics - and thanks again for the helpful answers/advice so far:

[Telebuddy]

Bumped to see if anyone has any more helpful info on this.

Will also be adding this to the classifieds soon for around £1500.

Cheers,

Ian.

[jwells393]

I looked at all of the pictures in your PhotoBucket album. I didn't see a serial number for the guitar. If you don't want to post the entire serial number (very understandable), why not the first couple of digits and the number of digits?

[Telebuddy]

Originally Posted by jwells393

I looked at all of the pictures in your PhotoBucket album. I didn't see a serial number for the guitar. If you don't want to post the entire serial number (very understandable), why not the first couple of digits and the number of digits?

Whoops - bit of a schoolboy error. The serial number is 615232.

Will add a pic later. Cheers!

[slack]

Originally Posted by Telebuddy

Bumped to see if anyone has any more helpful info on this.

What other info are you looking for?

[Telebuddy]

Originally Posted by slack

What other info are you looking for?

Hi Slack - the added photos of the neck and neck pocket were in response to your post re what would be helpful to narrow it down more. I'mpretty convinced now that it is a 74 or 75 and not a partsocaster.

Really helpful responses on this one and they are much appreciated. I'm keen to not annoy the TDPRI community by keeping his thread running longer than is necessary. I think I have enough info now and have also built up a bit of knowledge!

Cheers!

[Dave Hopping]

Telebuddy's '75 looks a lot like my '75,although his is cleaner and less modded(mine has a brass nut and Schallers),which brings up a question.His has the 3 saddle bridge.Mine has a 6 saddle bridge,which was on the guitar when I bought it used in July '77.Which bridge is stock for '75?

[slack]

Originally Posted by Telebuddy

Hi Slack - the added photos of the neck and neck pocket were in response to your post re what would be helpful to narrow it down more. I'mpretty convinced now that it is a 74 or 75 and not a partsocaster.

I previously asked for pics or the date stamp and you provided the date stamp. I've got nothing to add to what I've already said; it appears to be a solid 75 Tele (nothing in the pics raise any concerns).

[slack]

Originally Posted by Dave Hopping

His has the 3 saddle bridge.Mine has a 6 saddle bridge,which was on the guitar when I bought it used in July '77.Which bridge is stock for '75?

Probably the 3-saddle. The 6-saddle became available in 75. It's my opinion that starting in 1975 Tele Customs left Fender with either bridge, but that most if not all regular Teles left with the 3-saddle, though the 6-saddle was available as optional hardware at dealers and shops. Thus, in the 70s countless 3-saddle bridges on Teles from the 50s, 60s and 70s were swapped out for the 6-saddle bridge.

[jwells393]

The serial number is 615232.

The following serial number dating information is from the vintage guitar guru's website.

580000 to 690000 = 1975

[slack]

Originally Posted by jwells393

The following serial number dating information is from the vintage guitar guru's website.

580000 to 690000 = 1975

That serial number dating info (which is all over the web, including in the resources section of this website) is often, if not usually incorrect. That data makes no sense, is outdated and has been proven an inaccurate resource for dating vintage Fender guitars. It's okay for ball-parking a guitar I guess, if you know it's entire provenance and are certain it's all original, if you don't want to properly date it.

[jwells393]

Originally Posted by slack

It's like the serial number dating info available in the resources section here, and at Fender's site, though - it's incorrect

So slack ............ are you saying the serial number dating information is always incorrect or sometimes incorrect. If I'm not mistaken you said yourself that it was a 74 or 75. I was just adding another source.

[slack]

Originally Posted by jwells393

So slack ............ are you saying the serial number dating information is always incorrect or sometimes incorrect.

Well, you selectively quoted me, from between sentences that answer your question.

I wrote:

Originally Posted by slack

That serial number dating info ... is often, if not usually incorrect. That data makes no sense, is outdated and has been proven an inaccurate resource for dating vintage Fender guitars. It's okay for ball-parking a guitar I guess, if you know it's entire provenance and are certain it's all original, if you don't want to properly date it.

So, no. I'm not saying that data is useless or always wrong. It can be right. It's just that in reality Fender serial numbers simply do not correspond to years like that, in some chronological order with clear cutoffs and stuff. That common and widely disseminated serial info is very often wrong.

---

Originally Posted by jwells393

If I'm not mistaken you said yourself that it was a 74 or 75. I was just adding another source.

I did. And more info, including the serial number, ended up supporting my original observation. But, the serial number: 1) Would be about the last thing to consider when dating a vintage Tele; 2) Only dates it to a range of years.

[jwells393]

Originally Posted by slack

But, the serial number: 1) Would be about the last thing to consider when dating a vintage Tele; 2) Only dates it to a range of years.

That's often true with the vintage dating information found on the Fender website but for the years 1954 through 1976, the guru's website matches serial numbers to specific years.

[slack]

Originally Posted by jwells393

but for the years 1954 through 1976, the guru's website matches serial numbers to specific years.

And I confidently assert that that is not possible with Fender serial numbers. It is possible to construct a database of serial numbers whereby you attribute those to specific years based on known guitars. Sure, you can be right a lot of the time, especially from, say, 54 to the early 60s; but this is not accurate dating.

So there's no misunderstanding here, can you please provide the link to the info and site you are referencing?

[jwells393]

http://www.provide.net/~cfh/fender.html

[slack]

Originally Posted by jwells393

http://www.provide.net/~cfh/fender.html

The serial number info on Clay's site is the same info on lots of sites. And, again, it's inaccurate.

[slack]

Some examples....

From that widely disseminated serial number dating info:

"S8 + 5 digits = 1977-1978"

S8 prefix serial numbers were used from 1978-1982 (and maybe early 1983). Just this afternoon someone asked me about a 1978 Tele with an S8 serial. He insisted it was from the 70s. It was full of 1981 date codes.

"580000 to 690000 = 1975"
"690000 to 750000 = 1976"

There are lots and lots of 1974 Fender guitars and basses with serial numbers in 600000s.

"280000 to 300000 = 1970"

Pg. 76 of Duchossoir's book references a Tele with 300612 serial and MAR70 neck stamp.

"370000 to 520000 = 1973"

Pg. 76 of Duchossoir's book indicates 400000s were used April 1973 to September 1976 (which I also don't agree with).

"L00001 to L20000 = 1963"

Pg. 78 of Duchossoir's book shows several serial numbers in that range with 62 neck stamps.

You get the idea. There is no dating a vintage Fender guitar by serial number alone, and there is no accurate serial number dating chart for vintage Fender guitars.