Top-load v.s. string-thru-body

[pullchord]

Huge difference? Just bought one of those $130 Douglas (Rondo) Tele's (how bad can it be for $130?), and noticed it's a top-load. Could I not drill the holes myself and install the ferruls? Am going to drop a set of Lawrence Keystones in it for starters...

[Chris Clemens]

As far as I know, it changes the sustain a bit (less fat) but cause to the less string tension it's easier to bend strings...

[Bad Chile]

Originally Posted by Chris Clemens

As far as I know, it changes the sustain a bit (less fat) but cause to the less string tension it's easier to bend strings...

Technically, no change in string tension.

Why?

Becuase tension is one of the fundamental inputs into determining the frequency of vibration of a string. The other two are length and mass. Since the scale length and mass of the string does not change in the "top loader vs. string through body" discussion due to the fact that neither the bridge and the nut do not change locations nor the string mass changes, it follows that since the tuning does not change the tension does not change.

It may feel that way to you, but the physics does not change.

[Chris Clemens]

Originally Posted by Bad Chile

Technically, no change in string tension.

Why?

The other two are length and mass. Since the scale length and mass of the string does not change in the "top loader vs. string through body"

Realy!?!? Isnt it so that length does change? And angles in strings build up tension?!?!

[Muddslide]

There are lots of people that will tell you they can discern the difference in tonal characteristics of two identical guitars if they have pickguard screws made of different materials.

There are people that will tell you that if you have two identical guitars but one has a bone nut and one has a tusq nut, the difference in the sound they produce is like night and day.

There are people who would write a book on the differences in sound production of a Tele made from ash as opposed to alder.

In short, I think people go a little overboard. I've been playing so many years and have owned so many Teles...maybe my ears just aren't as refined as the nose of a world-class wine taster, but to me, the difference in tone and sustain between a string-through and a top-loader is negligible and barely worth mentioning.

To answer your question, yes--this is a mode you can do...drill some holes and slap in some ferrules and make it a string through. I just personally wouldn't bother.

If you have decent pickups and a good amp that has some tweakability, you should be good to go. Folks have gone so nuts over The Quest For The Perfect Magic Tone that they forget to just sit back, dial in a sound that works for them, and play.

[pullchord]

Got to agree with Chris. Though it may be minimal, the length of string required to go thru body is approx 1.5" longer - small in ratio to total string length, but nonetheless longer.

[Doug 54]

We have a few physics folk who will tell how it really is.

But I know from my navel gazing experiences that top load eases bendability

and

loosens up the mids/bass a bit.


but, who am I but a bus driver - driving at life's stimulus package drive-thru store...?

[Verne Bunsen]

Yeah, I think mr chile was only taking into account nut-to-saddle string length, in which case his math is probably correct. But theres a lot going on mechanically after the saddle, and I side with chris and doug, she bends easier top loaded. But I like the nature of the tone when strung through the body, the increased break angle of the string over the saddle and more substantial downward force on the saddle make for a very different dynamic from top load. Don't get me wrong, top load is great too, but everyones got a preference

[Bad Chile]

Originally Posted by Verne Bunsen

Yeah, I think mr chile was only taking into account nut-to-saddle string length, in which case his math is probably correct. But theres a lot going on mechanically after the saddle, and I side with chris and doug, she bends easier top loaded. But I like the nature of the tone when strung through the body, the increased break angle of the string over the saddle and more substantial downward force on the saddle make for a very different dynamic from top load. Don't get me wrong, top load is great too, but everyones got a preference

You, sir, are correct.

Tension in the string remains the same, however, the force (which is a vector, not a scalar) is different because of the downward break in the string.

[Five-O]

Let me see if I can figure this out, how does the string length matter, the only distance of consequence should be the distance between the nut and the saddles, and of course it matters if there is a sufficient string angle across these points, thus the plus of having the string through body, I think. Other wise wouldn't we have to take in consideration how much string we leave hanging out of the tuners ? But I'm just a regular guy trying to make some sense of all this, so don't chop me up too bad.

[indiobravo]

Typically whenever someone says that toploaders bend easier it's because they have A/B'ed them personally. This has been my experience - and i do not have a light touch - still i can tell a very big difference.
When someone says that toploaders don't (or shouldn't) be easier to bend it's usually a lesson in physics. I am not saying the latter are wrong, but just once I would like to hear someone say i have two teles, one top and thru, and they feel exactly the same.

because otherwise it doesn't matter to me how much science you throw at this - toploaders are much easier to bend than string thrus.

[cobra94]

This topic has been discussed before I have changed my MIM from toploader to thru body and yes there is a difference.

The "tension" of the string is the same because through physics, this gives you the proper pitch BUT what most people neglect is "effective string length". This is what Verne was eluding to "what happens behind the saddle".

Thru body breaks at a very sharp angle after the saddle thus when you are bending (effectively pulling the string along the string axis towards the headstock) the string component along the string axis behind the saddle is very short compared to the top loader, roughly it's about 1/4" vs 1". This difference allows the toploader to stretch easier, the end result being you have to bend the string more to acheive the same note.

Tail stop guitar owners know this can be changed because you just raise the tail stop and you decrease the break angle.

That's it in a nutshell.

Cheers

[Doug 54]

CAN...

an analogy be made with Gibson tailpiece guitars like a LP-- and top load VS string thru guitars??

Many peeps who play a Gib type guitar like to minimize 'break angle' -- even to the point of wrapping over the top of the stop tailpiece.
They will talk of bendability and more depth in tone.

And you have many who like to torque down the stop tailpiece with all the force of the Sham-Wow!! guy trying to kiss a San Diego h* !!!

They will talk of more susutain (but I think what comes thru is more upper mids and hi's, not quite more sustain)


that's my stepping out-of-da-box analogy of the string thru/ top load issue


/ /

[Brett Faust]

Cobra, with all due respect it seems you have it reversed.

"the string component along the string axis behind the saddle is very short compared to the top loader, roughly it's about 1/4" vs 1"."

The top loader has a much shorter afterlength on the string behind the saddle. That is the main reason for easier bending. The longer the string length, the greater the elasticity of the string, meaning the string must travel farther to bend to the same pitch.

As for sharper tone,it comes with the greater break angle of the string through.
The body wood also is a bigger factor when you go string through.

Well that's my 2 cents,hope it helps.

[zoobear]

I agree with everyone.

[63dot]

Originally Posted by Bad Chile

Technically, no change in string tension.

Why?

Becuase tension is one of the fundamental inputs into determining the frequency of vibration of a string. The other two are length and mass. Since the scale length and mass of the string does not change in the "top loader vs. string through body" discussion due to the fact that neither the bridge and the nut do not change locations nor the string mass changes, it follows that since the tuning does not change the tension does not change.

It may feel that way to you, but the physics does not change.

That's true, but for some reason (admittedly cosmetic), I like my tele to string through the body and I prefer the old three saddle style even though I know six saddles is better for intonation.

Also I know the color of the tele won't change the sound much if at all, but I like the more vintage colors and for some reason a candy apple green tele or a tele with a carved sterling silver pickguard just don't do it for me. Give me a butterscotch tele any day over the fancy pants teles of Fender's Custom Shop.

On the other hand, I like my Gibson/Gibson style guitars to top load, and I am not a fan of the thru body tailpiece like the Korina Vs, or some later strung through the body Flying Vs. But it's just personal taste as I am sure if a Korina V had a stop tailpiece, it would probably sound nearly the same if not identical to a through the body stringing.

[DOGGONE]

63dot ..you're right about the tradition of what a tele should look like. As far as tonal difference between a top loader and a string through the body tele, I a&b'd two '82-'84 era teles through my twin reverb and I could'nt hear any difference either way. I did notice easier string bending with the top loader, but the string-through had 10s and the top loader had 09's, so this gave the advantage to the top loader. Although this might tempt me to put some 10's or 11's on the top loader and for a fatter tone and still allow good bending action.

[musicmatty]

All I could add to this is thread is this...before you assume anything, put in the pups of your choice and play it. You may like the sound and feel of your top load without having to do anything else. I love top loads...they certainly have their merits...a little more jangle to MY ears..and certainly much easier to re-string.

[pullchord]

Interesting....how the discussion here seemed to gravitate towards ease of string bending relative to string length - which is why I have contemplated for awhile now, using a reverse headstock. That makes the top "E" string about 5" shorter from tuning peg to bridge/ferrul. My Les Paul with 10's bends way easier than my Strat with same.

[surfco]

I prefer string thru body.

[Ronkirn]

what we all prefer or think about "tension" and/or bending, doesn't mean cack... the OP needs to go play a few of each and decide for himself.... personally I prefer egg salad over ham salad... I just like the sound it maKes as it dribbles out and lands on the floor... that's just me.... others may like the sound an empty caulk tube makes as it hits the ground... who am I to decide.

Ron Kirn
Now I'm hungry....

[Slow Reflexes]

After much mental head scratching punctuated by repeated thoughts of, "He can't possibly mean that... " I've realised that you like the sound IT MAKES.

At least, I hope so.

[Verne Bunsen]

Oh man, I'm nominating that for "Best (Worst?!) Typo Ever". I'll never look at egg salad OR ham salad the same way again. Thanks Ron, I'll be laughing about that one all day!

[microphonic squeal]

Top loaders are brighter, other things being equal

[Nighthawk]

Originally Posted by Muddslide

There are lots of people that will tell you they can discern the difference in tonal characteristics of two identical guitars if they have pickguard screws made of different materials.

There are people that will tell you that if you have two identical guitars but one has a bone nut and one has a tusq nut, the difference in the sound they produce is like night and day.

There are people who would write a book on the differences in sound production of a Tele made from ash as opposed to alder.

In short, I think people go a little overboard. I've been playing so many years and have owned so many Teles...maybe my ears just aren't as refined as the nose of a world-class wine taster, but to me, the difference in tone and sustain between a string-through and a top-loader is negligible and barely worth mentioning.

To answer your question, yes--this is a mode you can do...drill some holes and slap in some ferrules and make it a string through. I just personally wouldn't bother.

If you have decent pickups and a good amp that has some tweakability, you should be good to go. Folks have gone so nuts over The Quest For The Perfect Magic Tone that they forget to just sit back, dial in a sound that works for them, and play.

Great post. +1.

[Ronkirn]

Oooppps who put the K so darn close to the L anyway..

rk

[starjag]

Originally Posted by Verne Bunsen

Oh man, I'm nominating that for "Best (Worst?!) Typo Ever". I'll never look at egg salad OR ham salad the same way again. Thanks Ron, I'll be laughing about that one all day!

+1 hilarious!

[Teleblooz]

Originally Posted by Muddslide

There are lots of people that will tell you they can discern the difference in tonal characteristics of two identical guitars if they have pickguard screws made of different materials.

There are people that will tell you that if you have two identical guitars but one has a bone nut and one has a tusq nut, the difference in the sound they produce is like night and day.

There are people who would write a book on the differences in sound production of a Tele made from ash as opposed to alder.

In short, I think people go a little overboard. I've been playing so many years and have owned so many Teles...maybe my ears just aren't as refined as the nose of a world-class wine taster, but to me, the difference in tone and sustain between a string-through and a top-loader is negligible and barely worth mentioning.

To answer your question, yes--this is a mode you can do...drill some holes and slap in some ferrules and make it a string through. I just personally wouldn't bother.

If you have decent pickups and a good amp that has some tweakability, you should be good to go. Folks have gone so nuts over The Quest For The Perfect Magic Tone that they forget to just sit back, dial in a sound that works for them, and play.

Ahhh - the sweet sound of reason...
Thanks, Mudd!

[Slow Reflexes]

Originally Posted by Ronkirn

Oooppps who put the K so darn close to the L anyway..

rk

Yeah, but what's your excuse on the N and T?

[TG]

There's difference in playing 'feel' when you alter overall string length and the break angles, both of which are different in toploader and string thru teles. The 'effort' needed to bend a string...which includes fretting...changes slightly and it makes a guitar feel different. I don't know the exact science involved but I suppose it has to do with the length of string you have to stretch and, with break angles, how much force is being exerted 'downwards' on the saddle/nut/etc.
I think the word 'deflection' was mentioned somewhere.

Incidentally, that reminds me of the other difference between a string thru and a top load tele. The lesser break angle over the saddles of a toploader sometimes results in the strings slipping on the saddle with heavy strumming.

But to the OP, I don't think you have to change your guitar to a string-thru unless you want to. Topload doesn't necessarily mean inferior.

Just to mention...
Years ago before being aware of any of this I changed a strat trem block and noticed a change in playing feel, even though I'd changed nothing else and had even reused the same strings. The .009s I had on suddenly felt too thin. The only difference was the depth of the ball ends in the 2 blocks, making the overall string length change.
A similar thing happened when I changed ferrules in a tele (I forget why). The new ones set the ball ends a ways deeper into the body and the next few gigs I found that the .009s I used felt slightly looser so I went to .0095s and it felt right again. Out of curiosity I swapped the ferrules back and it changed back again.
These incidents got me started thinking about all this stuff and I guessed (wrongly) that the actual string tension changed...especially after reading an anecdote somewhere about someone changing the anchor point on a bass guitar and having a tuner pulled out when he went back to pitch. But as the tension over the scale length has to be the same to make a certain note it had to be something else going on. There were some heated online discussions about it, I recall.

The bass incident mentioned above (which might not even be true for all I know) still makes me wonder about whether or not there's any difference in the amount of pull/force on the tuners and ball ends when you change string length and tune to pitch.
Anybody know?

[LOTF]

I changed my Squier from a top-loader to string-thru and am very satisfied with the results. Sustain, lows and mids are significantly improved. This is through a set of Duncans (Jerry Donahue and '54 Vintage) which were installed a year previously.

I feel I got my money's worth and made the guitar a lot better. Some people might like top-loaders better, however, and may not agree with me.

[cc9cii]

Originally Posted by TG

Anybody know?

I've seen this article mentioned in several places.

[Verne Bunsen]

Originally Posted by cc9cii

I've seen this article mentioned in several places.

Wow, that was very thorough, thanks for the link!

[pullchord]

TG, laws of physics and properties of mass definitely confirm that the desired pitch of a vibrating string are functions of string length, tension, AND the gauge or thickness (mass) of the string itself. The equivelant low "E" string (and there are usually 2 - even 3 on a Blutner) on a piano requires far greater tension than that of the guitar's. It's about 5 times thicker and on a grand. 3 times longer. So, yes there is a difference in your case, however negligible.

[Doug 54]

CAN...
an analogy be made with Gibson tailpiece guitars like a LP-- and top load VS string thru guitars??

Many peeps who play a Gib type guitar like to minimize 'break angle' -- even to the point of wrapping over the top of the stop tailpiece.
They will talk of bendability and more depth in tone.

And you have many who like to torque down the stop tailpiece with all the force of the Sham-Wow!! guy trying to kiss a San Diego h* !!!

They will talk of more sustain.
(but I think what comes thru is more upper mids and hi's, not quite more sustain)

that's my stepping out-of-da-box analogy of the string thru/ top load issue

[TG]

Originally Posted by cc9cii

I've seen this article mentioned in several places.

Thanks. That said what I've been trying to for ages. I always have trouble finding the terminology.

[telechaser]

Unless its a TOM I prefer string through. But I don't really know anything so forget I said anything.

[Beerfish]

String theory...Reading that artical{made my head hurt a little like when I read stephen Hawkins}seem to me if you tune the guitar then welded the nut and bridge there would be no tension change between top loader and thru but in the real world it seem to me the tension between the nut and bridge depends on the total length but I'm just a simple beerfish

[Beerfish]

hold the bus beerfish maybe I should switch the word tension for compliance

[Beerfish]

I've now totaly confused myself