Top-load v.s. string-thru-body

[DOGGONE]

You guys made me curious about the sustain difference so I hooked up the top loader and the string-thru to a Korg analog tuner to time the sustain before the needle began to drop off. No real difference between the two teles. I'm sure this is not very scientific, but probably closer than I can get with my ears. In my opinion it's not worth the expense to convert from top loader to string-thru. If you want the string-thru, then go out and get yourself one. It' a great reason to get another guitar!

[Doug 54]

Try it on the SAME guitar, doing string-thru... then top-load,
using exact same stings, action-- etc.

THAT would be the true test.

.

[pfogle]

FWIW I've got both, and they both sound good to me...

[GuloGulo]

Even though the tension is exactly the same on both a top loader and string through body the break angle is not. Top loaders always feel slightly looser to me when properly set up, top loading does not have an excessive break angle and allows the string to ring more freely. The only downside is a lot of the sound is absorbed by the metal since the strings are anchored to the bridge.

G&L compensated for that with the mass on the bottom of their top load bridge they use that fits into the body.

String through adds another axis to the string itself with the angle. Instead of being pulled in one direction its now being pulled in 2 directions. Upwards then then to the nut. Its why string through guitars are used as the standard. It rings better, adds sustain to the body.. blah blah. Unless you use light strings, they always still have fairly tight feeling strings. Its the nature of the design.

[Gary in Boston]

Then there is the fact that Fender changed from string through to top load in 59' I think then changed back.............

Gary

[LuvN Guitars]

Originally Posted by Gary in Boston

Then there is the fact that Fender changed from string through to top load in 59' I think then changed back.............

Gary

Yes they did and some well known Tele players prefer the top loaders, can't remember just who at the moment, but I did read it somewhere. I believe Jimmy Page's Tele used on the early Zep recordings was a top loader? (Again read it somewhere.)

Whatever works for you I guess, but I don't think it's a better or worse scenario, just a little different.

[TeeBird]

Here's what's going on with string "tension".

The tension IS the same no matter what the string setup tuning to the same pitch with the same diameter and material of string.

However let me introduce a new term: stiffness. Stiffness (in this case) is the rate of tension increase with deflection. In this case deflection is string bending, though it could also be pulling on the end. Either way you stretch the string. Hooke's Law says that for an elastic material (such as most metals before they reach the plastic region) force and deflection are proportional by a constant k. k is the stiffness and is often expressed in SI as newtons/meter.

The longer the unconstrained portion of the string, the lower the stiffness. And, the different it will feel to bend to a certain pitch. The lower the stiffness, the farther you will have to bend. If the string is at pitch and can slide with no friction over the nut and saddle AND is infinitely long...you can never increase the pitch by bending the string.

Break angle: that will increase normal force on the saddle which should increase friction (tractive) force which would make the string seem stiffer. But if there is no friction on the saddle, break angle makes no difference.

I am a mechanical engineer. Enjoy!

[OnlyVees]

Waiting for Mr. Campilongo to chime in. Doesn't he use a top-loader? And I'm pretty sure he knows how to bend strings a little bit...

[telepath]

I appreciate good sound theory, I'm a duffer at Physics, so I wont challenge any theory , but, only this week I tried restringing my partscaster (which has option for both topload and string-through) as String-through.

It was previously strung top-load as I'd not concentrated while I was putting strings on it the very first time after finishing the project.
My other Tele is topload only, so absent mindedly, I strung the Partscaster as a topload 'by mistake', and thats the way it stayed until this week.

I'd decided to try it as a string-through this week, as I'd noted my 'strat' is 'stiffer' to play, and wondered if it was the string length.

Anyhoo - for absolute sure - Partscaster is now harder to bend, or at least feels like more resistance. It feels 'stiffer' now that it is string through.

Definitely more so than the other topload, where previously they were just about identical in feel.
Same strings as I always use - Rotosound 'Yellows' 10-46.

I cannot detect any difference/improvement in resonance, sustain nor tone.
Maybe if I had a more exotic wood it would make a difference but it is alder, its not too shabby.

Short uncientific answer after short unscientific trial -

I prefer the option to topload, and to take that option, and just get on with playing ;)

Physicists, Purists and Theorists may tell me i'm wrong, and I genuinely respect that, but . .. ;)

[Jimo]

The toploader feels like you have to push the string farther to get it to pitch on a bend----it feels looser....is that easier or tougher?---I can't decide---but just about everyone can FEEL the difference--the tone seems about the same...Les Paul's are toploaders and they sustain pretty good...lol.....JIMO

[pfogle]

well, I'm a lousy musician, but I was trained and have worked as a physicist in the area of vibrations, so I always avoided toploaders 'cos it seemed, well, obvious to me that they wouldn't sound as good...

Anyway, to cut a long one, I just picked up my first toploader ('89 MIK Squier) and I think I've just proven myself wrong yet again. It sounds and plays great, and I'm gonna leave it as it is. As for bending, I use 10-46 and I think my strat is easier to bend, but I think that's down to nicer, smoother frets, as the strat's had a recent fret-dress. I can't say whether either is 'stiffer' - they feel pretty much the same to me.

So - I'm sure there are differences, but seems they are pretty small compared to the other differences between guitars.

I bumped this thread because I wanted to know if I should drill the body - after reading the responses here, it's clear to me that there's not a lot of gain, so I won't. Sure, some others will disagree, but I'm happier now to keep the toploader as it is. The only thing I don't really like is the saddles, so I'll have a look around for alternatives...

[stagefright]

I'll chime in...and speaking of chime.... I play a 59 Esquire topload Relic and it rings and sings like no other Tele style (or other style) guitar I've ever heard.

I play in a setting where I use many different guitars (various Fender Custom Shop Strat and Tele Relics,LP reissues,61 SG RI) and usually to the same amount of people..1000 or so...on a regular basis.No other guitar, save the 61 SG RI, gets the compliments and questions like the topload Esquire. It's an ear magnet. I had a guy (experienced guitar player) literally run up to me from the back of the room after a gig and want to know what kind of Tele I was playing. When I handed it to him he goes...Oh, an Esquire...oh, a toploader...oh,man,what a sound! He and the sound techs,fellow players,friends all say the 59 Esquire Relic is the best sounding of any the guitars I use.
I can feel this in my hands and soul. I'm a country bumpkin and know nothing of physics,mechanical engineering and the like but I do know from experience and the reaction of other musical and non-musical people that this particular toploaded Esquire,like the Napolean Dynamite's Lyger, has mystical powers

[emu!]

From what I have READ...not tried...the biggest difference in top-loaders from string-thru is something called vibration transferance.

With the string-thru, there is more vibration transferance because of the added presure applied to the bridge/tail piece and onto the body of the guitar. The sharp angle adds the pressure. BTW, barrel bridges are supposed to allow more vibration transferance since there are 2 strings crossing one barrel. Two srings add more pressure than one, I guess. Some guitar makers even go as far as making sure the wood under the tail piece is NOT painted. They say paint will reduce vibration transferance. Can I tell the difference? Not my ears.

Personally, I like to attract insects onto my guitar, so I slap some gooey honey on the body before playing. The flies that land on my guitar add some sustain.

[flag72]

Im still confuse MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
Daniel

[igorBG]

Practically body-thru will sound fuller, strings will be more difficult for bending, but they will feel more stiff.
I don't know why it happens, but I converted my toploader and was able to hear are feel huge difference.
The work on the back is not perfect on my Tele, but I never regretted that, it really sounds better now.
One of the major improvement was the fact that 3 saddle vintage bridge is way better thatn 6 saddle vintage toplaopd bridge.

[telepath]

Igor

Just a thought - you changed the bridge.
It might (might) sound the same toploaded or string through - if it were 'toploadable'

I honestly think this will never be definitively proved either way.

Just go with what you enjoy I say - same maxim is generally true for all avenues in life.

And I certainly would not avoid aquiring a string through - that would be mad ;)

But I would not consider drilling to make a T-Type string through.
'purity of design' is a fair consideration but ..

.. who's judging? - and why?
and what about Stagefrights example of his Esquire?
(nice lil' story there BTW - liked that ;) )

[Doug 54]

CAN...

an analogy be made with Gibson tailpiece guitars like a LP-- and top load VS string thru guitars??

Many peeps who play a Gib type guitar like to minimize 'break angle' -- even to the point of wrapping over the top of the stop tailpiece.
They will talk of bendability and more depth in tone.

And you have many who like to torque down the stop tailpiece with all the force of the Sham-Wow!! guy trying to kiss a San Diego h* !!!

They will talk of more susutain (but I think what comes thru is more upper mids and hi's, not quite more sustain)


that's my stepping out-of-da-box analogy of the string thru/ top load issue


/ /

[Jim Campilongo]

Originally Posted by OnlyVees

Waiting for Mr. Campilongo to chime in. Doesn't he use a top-loader? And I'm pretty sure he knows how to bend strings a little bit...

" As far as the Toploader -- I think the feel and sound is a bit more "rubbery" than a standard Tele..."

That's the "press release" and I feel that is true. Toploaders are easier to play.

I think the toploader sound is a bit more compressed and in the worse case scenario - "burpy" ... but I like that compromise over the string -through worse case scenario ... glassy sounds that can pinch the inner ear.

I like the toploader jazz sounds too.

Just my own personal taste Tele brothers!

AND ..

Toploader strings are easier to change and it's a superior writing desk

[tomringg]

But can we here more about the Rondo guitar & what you think of it?

[boris bubbanov]

Originally Posted by pullchord

Huge difference? Just bought one of those $130 Douglas (Rondo) Tele's (how bad can it be for $130?), and noticed it's a top-load. Could I not drill the holes myself and install the ferruls? Am going to drop a set of Lawrence Keystones in it for starters...

The Keystones sound like a good idea.

On a Douglas, the answer is no, no difference. No matter the guitar, it'd never be a huge difference, anyway.

+++

As far as what is detectable and what is not. I simply ask those who can't tell anything apart from anything, can you match a diamond cutter in assigning grading, etc., of diamonds? Do you think your diagnosis of a knee injury is equivalent to that of the best orthopaedic surgeon, the one the rest of the doctors go to, the one that the multi-million dollar sports stars go to?

I think I'll go over and tell the diamond cutter and tell the superstar surgeon to just shut up. What could they possibly know?

I have met people who can and DO tell the difference on some remarkable things. Just because we can't tell.

[pfogle]

Humm.. I went back and had a rethink 'bout the tele. The two things that bugged me were that the screws stuck out of the saddles, which were very low, so with the toploader it didn't feel very stable.

I shimmed the neck with a bit of thin card, solved both problems. The saddles are now higher so no screws sticking up. and a sharper break angle over the saddles - better tone, more stable, now sounds awsome

easily kills the MIM blackout sss tele I had earlier in the year in every way. Now just got to replace the noisy jack and switch...

[Revv23]

Originally Posted by pullchord

Interesting....how the discussion here seemed to gravitate towards ease of string bending relative to string length - which is why I have contemplated for awhile now, using a reverse headstock. That makes the top "E" string about 5" shorter from tuning peg to bridge/ferrul. My Les Paul with 10's bends way easier than my Strat with same.

As a strat player I've done it both ways. I'm a southpaw who burnt out the frets on his lefty neck, so threw on a righty neck from a friends guitar that he forgot about. (how do you forget about your strat!? The poor thing just sitting there :( ). In terms of playability I couldn't tell a difference. Tone would have been the same but I went from maple to rosewood. Soon going back to my lefty neck doing a refret on it.



To the OP: Ron Kirn gave the best advice I think why not play it and see how you like it? That is after all what we buy these things for. Maybe someday you will see a tele at a guitar store someday and you can try string thru and if you like it you can start thinking about the mod. (I hope your guitar store has at least one tele! Oh the horror!)

[telepath]

Some of the most desired objects round here are vintage Esquires, and they may well be generally thought of as candidates for holy-grail tone-monstery.
Quite possibly a lot of these are gonna be Toploaders?

We can worry too much and hear too much in our worries and theories.

My Toploader 'Esquired' Partscaster has tone and sustain a plenty, though I am going to shift the bridge forward a little to increase break angle when I get round to it. Not 'urgent' ;)
And asides I'm thinking about that mainly because I play with my fingers and have a habit of moving the string laterally across the saddle when I pop notes, and so I want to try a bit more pressure there.
Gonna put notched saddles in the bridge too - or notch my current saddles which are 'notchless' Wilkinson compensated brass saddles.

I really like the playing feel of toploaders. Especially an Esquire style toploader.
I'm planning another build, and it will be a Toploader ;)

[Groovey Records]

Originally Posted by Jim Campilongo

" As far as the Toploader -- I think the feel and sound is a bit more "rubbery" than a standard Tele..."

That's the "press release" and I feel that is true. Toploaders are easier to play.

I think the toploader sound is a bit more compressed and in the worse case scenario - "burpy" ... but I like that compromise over the string -through worse case scenario ... glassy sounds that can pinch the inner ear.

I like the toploader jazz sounds too.

Just my own personal taste Tele brothers!

AND ..

Toploader strings are easier to change and it's a superior writing desk

Now if we could just get Jimmy Page to weigh in we may get a consensus

[3 Chord]

Toploader or stringthru, there probably is a difference in sound. But then again, all guitars sound different, even identical models.

I have one of each, I like them both.

[boris bubbanov]

I think there's another aspect that everyone is overlooking.

On a toploader the only thing holding the bridgeplate down is usually four #6 wood or sheet metal screws, from .75 to 1.25 inches long into God Knows what size and depth of holes. Meanwhile, the toploaded strings are trying to rip the plate off, possibly distorting or deflecting the plate, possibly rocking it into a different position vis a vis the body. On which it may or may not be laying flat.

Now. When you string through instead, the 6 saddle height screws are pressing down onto the plate in another location, just in front of the four mount screws. Possibly doubling the amount of pressure the plate is being held down at, and possibly distorting or deflecting the plate in another manner altogether. No forward rocking moment. And the strings enter the body at the back of the plate and anchor it even further. No-one at all trying to rip the plate off.

When you think of a Tele bridge plate as a diaphragm or drumhead onto which the bridge pickup is suspended, it is easy to understand how the guitar could sound quite different, most especially on stock .048 inch thick Tele bridge plates with no hot rodding or massaging.

What happens insofar as string compliance is concerned is IMO small in comparison to this overlooked consideration.

[Southern Ill Electrics]

I load them this way and Ol' Army Green seems to play a bit easier......





This is the sound that comes out of her :
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7393497



Here is a guitar Build for a fine young man deep in the heart of TEXAS.....



And she sounded good to me......
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7525061

play just as well,little bit more tension on her I guess.


You can poll the masses....ask a million players and you'll get the same amount of different answers........Each his own.

[sa paine]

On My partscaster I first set it up as a top loader, then went to string through.

Top was brighter, I liked the sound. Then I set it up with strings through. Maybe a bit more bottom end and I think stiffer feel too.

One thing for sure is, a string through body has more contact with the saddle. and a 90 dagree bend.

I think I may set it up as a top loader, I liked it ! maybe better.....for me anyway.

[absaroke]

I say more pictures like the ones above will help us all figure out which style we all prefer.

[ADK Teleman]

FWIW...who cares...I like the thru body...why...the sound..:) my preference...is it right or wrong??? Who cares it is my preference and I own it..:)

[rhomco]

She said "You should all string your dual loading tele bridge with every other string thru the body and the rest top loaded. In the debates you would "always" be right, you would have a 50% improvement in tone, a 50% improvement in bend ability and if you played a whole song all the way through without starting over to admire how good it now plays and sounds everyone would think you were on to something. Dammit..... she's never been wrong yet and you can ask her yourself!
Telies and wives define or lives,
Rob

[Donnie55]

I have a 1993 MIM Tele its a top loader , and I have parts esquire its a top loader. Both play great. Whats funny is just recently I sold a standard tele and I parted with that guitar because it felt stiff to me. It was a string thru. I never even thought about the issue of top vs string thru . Cool post,,, got me wondering now !!! Heres the MiM ...[IMG][/IMG]

[poorplayer]

Les Pauls are "toploaders" too, and they sound pretty heavy. Listen to some Jim Campilongo records to hear his tele tone, that's a toploader, sounds amazing. The first Led Zep album ain't bad either if you want an example of how heavy the toploader can get.

[BigDaddyLH]

One more thing about string-through-bodies: you can swap your ferrules for that Taipan Tone Tone Bar:



Yet another gizmo to play with!

[franchelB]

I've been tempted by the "string through the body" philosophy that I inquired about buying a bridge and have a guitar tech drill the holes. The labor and installation cost is more than what I'm willing to pay for!

[blimpo]

I wouldn't go to all the trouble of drilling for string-thru.
The difference will only be slight, if at all.

What I've heard for years still goes. Little changes don't make the guitar sound better. If you want to seriously improve how the guitar sounds- practice more..

[telepath]

Originally Posted by blimpo

I wouldn't go to all the trouble of drilling for string-thru.
The difference will only be slight, if at all.

What I've heard for years still goes. Little changes don't make the guitar sound better. If you want to seriously improve how the guitar sounds- practice more..

Some will tell you that little changes make all the difference.
It might, to them. Thats fine and if it is true, it is true.

It might not matter so much if you are enjoying a strum by the fireside caught up in the moment, or standing in front of a couple of hundred people, making them dance and sent home happy, or standing in front of a wall of thundering cabs in a stadium blowing people hair back.

So it could beg the question.. when exactly do these small, if even perceptible (tonal) differences make such a difference to anybody else?

Though it need not stop each of us shooting for the closest possible to what we want/expect.

[Doug 54]

SEE:

My above (somewhere there!!) Les Paul anaolgy to topload

[Doug 54]

here it is:

CAN...

an analogy be made with Gibson tailpiece guitars like a LP-- and top load VS string thru guitars??

Many peeps who play a Gib type guitar like to minimize 'break angle' -- even to the point of wrapping over the top of the stop tailpiece.
They will talk of bendability and more depth in tone.

And you have many who like to torque down the stop tailpiece with all the force of the Sham-Wow!! guy trying to kiss a San Diego h* !!!

They will talk of more sustain (but I think what comes thru is more upper mids and hi's, not quite more sustain)


that's my stepping out-of-da-box analogy of the string thru/ top load issue

[tboy]

Shorter fingers makes bending harder. Therefore, players with shorter fingers should eat ham salad.