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golfnut · January 6th, 2009, 11:03 AM

I have a couple of pretty good guitars. I find that quality wise they are a step up from American Standard. My plan was to maybe buy a Tele style boutique like a Crook or Grosh. I've been playing my 52 Hotrod Tele and 62 Hotrod strat now for a few months and I'm beginning to wonder if it is necessary. I love my guitars. They aren't perfect but then neither am I. I'm wondering if some of the guitars imperfections actually add character to the guitar. Am I going to sound better or play better on a $4,000 guitar? Probably not. Is it going to feel better? Maybe.
Is spending the double the amount for a guitar actually getting me better all around? Or mainly just different? The 63 Tele that I used to own many years ago would probably be worth more than my guitars that I own now but I don't remember that it was any better than what I have now.
I'd like to know what justifies people to go out and buy a $4,000 boutique guitar instead of the better quality Fenders, such as the vintage series.

twangcaster1 · January 6th, 2009, 11:16 AM

"Better" is in they eye of the beholder. People like Bill Crook, Floyd Cassista, and others like them build great guitars that you can't compare to factory stamped cookie cutters. Fender makes great guitars and some of history's greatest music was recorded on the simplest and even flawed vintage Fender guitars, proving that they sound good, feel good, and they'll get the job done. However, if you have the money and it is what you want, you don't need to justify buying that Crook or Floyd. Just buy it and play it and if you like it, it's worth the money you spent for it. I've got an American Ash Telecaster with a Glendale Bridge and Saddles, Lindy Fralin pickups, a Plek Job, and a professional shielding job done on it and I easily consider it to be on the same level as a Crook or any other boutique tele. However, it certainly isn't just a "straight off the shelf of Sam Ash" telecaster. It's had some real upgrades and tweaking done to it to get it that way. It was expensive, but yeah, I definitely feel like it was worth it.

musicmatty · January 6th, 2009, 11:20 AM

Sometimes it's just the obsession of having and being able to say I spent such and such amount on my axe.

I have tried many guitars at different levels like most on here...not saying that I ownded any of them..just tried them out. None of the High end guitars played or felt any better than the cheaper ones that were set up properly. And to the contrary, I have experieced better sounding Cheaper guitars than most of the expensive one's.

The only guitar that I felt was an exceptional guitar and above all others that I had played, was an original Guild acustic before Gibson bought them. It was the best guitar ever in my hands.

getbent · January 6th, 2009, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by golfnut

I'd like to know what justifies people to go out and buy a $4,000 boutique guitar instead of the better quality Fenders, such as the vintage series.

Freedom of choice I'd guess. The range of choices when a guitar is commissioned is greater, the singularity of the instrument is probably a factor and in a world where we have to conform to all the rules and regulations imposed by others can be ignored all for the relatively paltry cost of a few thousand dollars.

For the people who want that experience it is well worth the money. It is my sense that when people can't detect the difference.. it doesn't exist... for them.

I'd say you have some pretty fancy guitars that lots of guys would say weren't qualitatively different from a mexican or japanese or american standard model... I'd imagine that you see a difference which is why you plunked down the extra money for them...

Justifying ones actions is purely dependent on the expectations of others which is a losing battle in many cases because a guy has to forego his own values to get there... I'd say, buy what you like and like what you buy.

superbadj · January 6th, 2009, 11:23 AM

Why do people buy them?

Hmmmm.....can of worms there.

Personally, I think there is a massive, massive, massive rule of diminishing returns as guitar costs rise.

Sure, there are some things that might, somewhere, make a difference. But I think it's much more minor than people like to think.

If you've got the money, and there's some $5000 guitar you want, and you can truly afford it, then go for it. Why not. It's what you want.

But I don't think there's much (or anything) that guitar can do that many, many other guitars at much cheaper price points can't do.

It's kinda like golf. People spend TONS on golf equipment (i used to work at a club). They were terrible, horrible golfers. And they had thousands of dollars of custom-fit equipment that they'd sell each year and buy something new because that was going to make them better.

But there was a dude there at the club that didn't have a lot of money, and could shoot in the 60's just about anytime he wanted, using pretty cheap equipment. It's not hte clubs, it's the golfer. Same for guitar. I've heard guys pull magic out of really cheap acoustics. And I've heard wankers just wank away on uber-expensive guitars.

In addition two a couple of Teles and a few other guitars, I have a Gretsch 5125, an excellent, big-ole hollowbody with outstanding DeArmond pickups in it. I really like the guitar, and I got it for a freaking STEAL. But for whatever reason, I still really, really want a Gretsch 6118 and/or a White Falcon. Why? Are they worth $1500 to $2000 (6118), and even more for the Falcon? Especially when you consider that my 5125 sounds and plays great and cost me....brand freaking new.....$400. Are they worth 4, 5, 6, 8 times as much? In terms of sound?? Absolutely not.

But I still want one. I may never actually justify the cost. But I want one. I love the two-tone smoke green on the Annie, and you just gotta love the over-the-top Falcon treatment.

But I would still only be as good as I am on the 5125.

Custom builders that can give you some quirky custom options, well that might be worth it I guess. But if you're just going a straight T-style........I just don't see it. Plus, there are guys like Ron Kirn that sell more "affordable" custom creations (compared to some of the guys out there). I'm sure the workmanship is top notch.

purpletele · January 6th, 2009, 11:24 AM

It also has alot to do with getting all the features you want that may noy be present in any standard production model. Most custom builders are still cheaper than having something built by the custom shop.

<jbc> · January 6th, 2009, 11:36 AM

So you mean like the standard models vs. the Custom Shop?

Doug 54 · January 6th, 2009, 11:48 AM

"ear" of the beholder.

Sent back a new Tom Anderson in Oct. It was pretty gd--- but not great like my other one.
My AS Fender T is fantastic.

u don't know 'til you play it.

rhinocaster · January 6th, 2009, 12:01 PM

If it's about impressing others, then someone is much better off playing a Fender and a Marshall than anything else. More players and non players know and are impressed by these names than any of the boutique stuff. In most cases, I've experienced that people think I can't afford the good stuff when I gig my boutique gear!

On the plus side, that probably makes it more resistant to theft at a show.

I play what I play because I like it. It really is as simple as that. I like the sound, feel and knowledge that I'm supporting a small builder that is carrying on the tradition of hand building gear.

There are lots of great guitars out there. Find something you like and play it!

PixelMover · January 6th, 2009, 12:43 PM

Can't say I have a highly experienced professional opinion but after playing a Hahn, a Kirn, and a handful of CS teles the other day, the Hahn and Kirn felt very solidly built. Can't make an off-the-cuff tone comparison because of the different Pups but the quality of craftsmanship in the Hahn and Kirn looked, and more importantly (to me) "felt" better.

I didn't have a 52' RI on hand to compare.

Whether you want to spend the $$$ is another matter.

If you can't tell the difference in sound then why spend the money?

GuitarJonz · January 6th, 2009, 12:58 PM

Get a low cost tele that you like the feel and acoustic tone of (MIM Classic 50s or 60s, MIJ 50's Telecaster, MIJ Squier, etc), then install premium pickups like Don Mare. In a blind taste test, nobody could tell the difference between it and the $5,000 guitar, or dare I say,

the $50,000 blackguard tele.

pengipete · January 6th, 2009, 12:58 PM

Slightly leading title here - "expensive" versus "good".

There's also the point that these are both subjective terms. My Baja is both "expensive" - compared with some other guitars - and "good" - compared with some other gutars.

When comparing two items like this you can only assess their value for money and that assessment especially on on luxury goods that are not essential for survival includes how they make you feel.

In other words - only you can decide if the money is well spent.

twangcaster1 · January 6th, 2009, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug 54

"ear" of the beholder.

Sent back a new Tom Anderson in Oct. It was pretty gd--- but not great like my other one.
My AS Fender T is fantastic.

u don't know 'til you play it.

Yeah, "ear" of the beholder is a little better, isn't it!

professir · January 6th, 2009, 01:06 PM

My view may be shaded a bit by hanging around the mandolin world, (where $5K gets you started, and a "good" instrument can be triple that) and the acoustic guitar world where a custom guitar from a luthier can be $10K. In both cases, the same discussion happens, "Why not just buy an off the shelf Martin, or Eastman?"

In the end, it comes down to personal preference. I play a custom guitar I had built for me 25 years ago and have never regretted a single moment or penny. Is it "better" then the Martin? Who knows, and frankly who cares. I wanted this guitar for a bunch of reasons, and I love it. My buddy loves his Martin. ALL of them are fantastic instruments, and worth to be played.

So, my advise is, get what you truly love and want, try to not buy to please others, and PLAY THAT GUITAR MAN!!!!!!! I have a friend that has more then 2 doz custom built mandolins, the cheapest being over $7K and he cant tune them. THAT is sin.

Oh yes, one more thing, post pics of it! I love eye candy.

blessings,
Ray

golfnut · January 6th, 2009, 01:09 PM

Thank you for all the replies. This really helps me work through this. I am one of those impulsive guys that will buy the biggest baddest because I'm told its the biggest baddest. This is the type of insanity I want to stop. I can definitely tell the difference between my guitars and the American standards or MIM. I'm not going to say better but just that the AS and MIM don't do for me what the Vintage series guitars do. Maybe thats just the sound I'm after. I'm sure I could have crook or whoever make me a guitar to perfection and I'd probably hear a difference but all I know is that I don't feel handicapped playing the guitars that I do. I really enjoy them. I'm through with the impressing "I've got a $3,000 whatever". So I'm thinking that maybe it isn't worth me ordering a custom. And I hate ordering a guitar spending all kinds of money before I get to play it. I have played the CS Nocaster and I like it good enough to some day buy one if I can get it with a 9.5 rad fingerboard.
I think for me the thing I have to get past is that I love the way my current guitars feel and sound and just be happy with what I have. I know that most of my allure to a custom boutique guitar is that I hear everybody talk about how wonderful and perfect they are. And who doesn't want wonderful and perfect.

hollowman · January 6th, 2009, 01:17 PM

I think it is natural for most people, especially here in the good ole USA, to want fancier, more expensive stuff, wether it be guitars or TV's or whatever. But for a buying decision, I thikn it comes down to your personal financial situtation... can you scratch that $4000 check without a sweat? then do it, if you must. You probably can re-sell if necessary, and not take too big a hit. If you can't afford it, then just be happy with what you have.

I am strongly considering a custom tele build by my local luthier. He is not famous yet, so i can have him build me a tele for about $1000, maybe a little more. BUT, it will be to whatever specs I want, neck radius, fret size, pickups, bridge, color, wood, etc... Now i could spend a little more and get a brand new Fender Am Std, but as i've found out in the local GC, I've never found one that I really like, 100%, enough to drop $1300 on.

Good luck, show us a pic if you go the boutique route!!!

Tim Armstrong · January 6th, 2009, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by getbent

Justifying ones actions is purely dependent on the expectations of others which is a losing battle in many cases because a guy has to forego his own values to get there... I'd say, buy what you like and like what you buy.

There's the crust of the biscuit, right there...

Tim

boris bubbanov · January 6th, 2009, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superbadj

Why do people buy them?

In addition two a couple of Teles and a few other guitars, I have a Gretsch 5125, an excellent, big-ole hollowbody with outstanding DeArmond pickups in it. I really like the guitar, and I got it for a freaking STEAL. But for whatever reason, I still really, really want a Gretsch 6118 and/or a White Falcon. Why? Are they worth $1500 to $2000 (6118), and even more for the Falcon? Especially when you consider that my 5125 sounds and plays great and cost me....brand freaking new.....$400. Are they worth 4, 5, 6, 8 times as much? In terms of sound?? Absolutely not.

But I still want one. I may never actually justify the cost. But I want one. I love the two-tone smoke green on the Annie, and you just gotta love the over-the-top Falcon treatment.

But I would still only be as good as I am on the 5125.

This is the essence of it.

We love guitars; and we're willing to pay more, because we can.

pengipete · January 6th, 2009, 01:52 PM

If I posted a photo of my wife and a photo of a Playboy model and asked for honest opinions on which was "best" the chances are that most men would prefer the bunny girl.

I'd pick Dee everytime cos she my perfect woman.

The same would count for a great many members - I know cos I've read a load of posts from chaps here who obviously adore their wife.

We all make choices that we can't explain outside of "it's right for me".

smoke · January 6th, 2009, 01:59 PM

So they can put it in their signatures for us to see?

Or

So they can write titles like on message boards:

OMG!!!!! CROOK TELE!!!!! OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TWANGTASTIC!!!!!! HAHN TELE!!!! WOW!!!!

Or

Perhaps because they like them best and have either the money to buy it or sufficient credit card limits to charge it.

getbent · January 6th, 2009, 02:01 PM

Okay, we have clearly established that Pengipete's wife reads the board.

Scott Auld · January 6th, 2009, 02:24 PM

I think it's a losing proposition to start to judge other people's motives as to why they do things, why the make certain choices, why they buy X instead of Z, etc.

We can make value judgments about actions - but not motives; IMHO. Unless you got a mind-reading machine.

Anyway.

Golfnut, the guitars you have right now sound real nice to me. So do the ones you're thinking about. But it doesn't matter what we think. :)

Scott Auld · January 6th, 2009, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by getbent

Okay, we have clearly established that Pengipete's wife reads the board.

ZING!

Tom S · January 6th, 2009, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by golfnut

I'd like to know what justifies people to go out and buy a $4,000 boutique guitar instead of the better quality Fenders, such as the vintage series.

There is no justification for it. None whatsoever. But no justification is required.

I have thought about this topic a bit over the years, as I could be called something of a guitar collector, but probably more accurately a guitar whore or guitar accumulator. Over the past 40 years or so, I've owned about 60 guitars, ranging in price from about $200 to $4000. I have loved guitars since I was a kid.

I am left with certain realities about owning guitars that I can relate pretty simply. While I don't regret owning any of my guitars, I can honestly say that once I had a guitar that was acceptably playable, I really did not ever NEED another. That occurred almost 30 years ago when I built my first partscaster.

Since then I have bought guitars to experience a wide range of styles, concepts and materials. Many I just couldn't resist for one reason or another. About half of them were teles or tele-style guitars, though, which in the grand scheme of things are far more alike than they are different. So why buy them? Who knows.

I have a Yamaha 102S tele-style guitar that I bought new about 10 or 12 years ago (or thereabout, I can't remember when they came out) for $209. I am 100% sure that any good guitar player could play the hell out of that thing, sound great, and not find it lacking. At this point I am convinced that I could not find another guitar at any price, that would exceed that guitar in playability by any degree worth mentioning. So it's not about need. The expensive guitars I've owned were inspiring, and in that capacity they spurred me to play. But I can't honestly say that any of them made me a better player. I sure did like 'em, though. And since I could afford them, that's all the justification I ever needed.

These days, I mostly play the guitars I scratch-built. They play well and make me happy. I will never buy another guitar...but it's been a long road.

Old Cane · January 6th, 2009, 03:10 PM

People pay that much because they can/want to/ need to. You need a guitar that feels good, plays good, sounds good and stays in tune. Some people can do that for $200, some for $2000. It's all about what you need/want/can afford. It's all about your tastes and ability to pay.

Jahmbie · January 6th, 2009, 03:53 PM

My AmStd Tele found me about 10 years ago. I was bound and determined to get a Tom Anderson after meeting him at summer NAMM that year. Only one shop in town had TA and usually sold within a week of arrival. I went to try them out and was ready to buy when I saw the Tele and picked it up. $600 later it was going home with me. Every other instrument has almost found me this way, they just feel right and I know it within 5 seconds. My only "one that got away" was a 1947 Gibson J-45 that a college girlfriend's dad had gathering dust in his closet and almost gave me. We broke up the next week.
I still look around, but most of the time I just want to get home and play my guitars.

pengipete · January 6th, 2009, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by getbent

Okay, we have clearly established that Pengipete's wife reads the board.

...and she's got sharp ears - you can still see the scratches around the keyholes.

Bill · January 6th, 2009, 06:45 PM

This album should be required listening for this discussion:

Tone Poems

Listen to some of the samples. It's David Grisman on mandolin and Tony Rice on acoustic guitar. They are playing a different pair of vintage instruments on each recording. Some are fine old Martins. But there are some cheapo (at the time) instruments on there as well. Try and tell the difference.

Bill

maestrovert · January 6th, 2009, 07:21 PM

my Grandpa had a sayin' that in my own experience has proven to be true many times over:
"Quality is always worth the price.....
.....but only to a point, after that you're just payin' for a name..."

i own some custom builds that are fine instruments indeed, but i also have cheap homebrew partscasters and lowly MIMs that are fine instruments as well....

Relative value judgements are relatively easy...

...really, the only question is: what's it worth to you ?

However, if one contemplates an instrument purchase hoping to impress someone else with one's possessions, then one's motives are based on falsehood....

jes' mho, ymmv

Mr.Reed · January 6th, 2009, 07:35 PM

Well I want to get my two cents in!!! Here is how I feel about it. So far in my life of guitars (roughly 4 years or so), I went from wanting a Gibson Les Paul, just cause Jimmy Page payed one (also I want the most expensive one :P), to constructing my own, and finding a sound that doesn't quite exist in guitars. However after my semester in comm 101, it's easy to answer the question of WHY people want them. In America and in other developed countries, you are often defined not by your net worth (as most people will never know this info), or your deeds (because that's a book no one cares to read), but more by the things you own, because they are the easiest to see. Now this may not be the most evident reason to you, but that's because it's culturally ingrained, so that you don't think of it, but that it's a thought that runs in the background. That being said... I still want a 12 string Rickenbacker :)

stevedenver · January 6th, 2009, 07:36 PM

much comon sense above
it is about what you want

there is also perhaps a presumption that isnt always correct

that something boutique is MORE expensive than the production equivalent

case in point my lentz t -imho much more than the 5-6 CS nocasters i auditioned and no comparison to a 52 RI-(i was far biased toward buying a fender product for a whole bunch of reasons-i changed and came full circle

the lentz was 300 less than the CS nocaster

also somewhat close was my Mission 5E3 kit with upgrade tranny and speaker-was hell bent to go Victoria or clark until i did side by sides-Mission was almost $500 less than the Vic with a jenson-and the Mission had a blue dog (yes my labor was free-my point is about the brand name thing versus value)

but yes i know this isnt usually the case with boutiques

as said, its only about what makes you happy-no need to justify

mudbean · January 6th, 2009, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by golfnut

I've been playing my 52 Hotrod Tele and 62 Hotrod strat now for a few months and I'm beginning to wonder if it is necessary. I love my guitars. They aren't perfect but then neither am I. I'm wondering if some of the guitars imperfections actually add character to the guitar.

O.K., you're drivin me nuts, I gotta know: what is not perfect about your Hot Rod '52 Tele?

mud

The S1W · January 6th, 2009, 08:11 PM

My favourite guitar ever is my '57 Cal-Beach Tele, also my cheapest. I play it all the time. And the more I play it, the more I like it. I've owned guitars that cost six times as much and played better, but I'm gonna play this one for the rest of my days, 'cause it gets better every day and has such a head start over anything else that they could never catch up in the mojo stakes. It 'aint that pretty, it's not pristine, it has a Lollar Charlie Christian in the neck but it's priceless to me.

Big Steve · January 6th, 2009, 08:28 PM

I have been playing, buying, building and trading guitar for about 25 years now. I have owned well over 100 guitars and probably closer to 200.

For the first 10 to 15 years, I didn't know much about good setups and moifying guitars. I just played them the way they came.

Then one day I took my guitar to a professional tech and had it set up and some pickups put into it. I was amazed at how much better a guitar could play with a proper set up. I then started have all my guitars set up.

I was then was lucky enough to run into Don Mare about 5 years ago at Sam Ash. We became friends and he helped me build my first parts tele. It turned out better than any tele I had ever laid my hands on. It was because he really knew teles and paid attention to every last piece and really got everything out of it.

Since I was lucky enough to meet someone who really knows teles whom share his knowledge I didn't have to pay the premium to get a great tele. Teles can be so much better than they come stock. It is a cumulation of a lot of little different things that all ad up. These great builders know these little things. People are willing to pay for that knowledge.

If you really want a top end tele, there are a lot approaches to get one. The big name builders are the quickest and easist way to get there but they are also the most expensive. Justify however you need to, but once you play a really great guitar, it is hard to go back and play lesser ones. And when I am talking great guitars, they can be had at all price points.

Some people are most interested in the names on the headstock, if that is the case, their only approach is the most expensive one.

Joe M · January 6th, 2009, 08:31 PM

OK, gotta throw in my two cents here....my entire small collection is all CS Teles and Strats (except for my first "good" guitar, a 1977 Strat). I always felt they were far and away better than any other guitar that Fender made. I used to feel a little guilty with all the money I have invested when I consider myself a mediocre player with 98% of my playing at home. Then I realized that it's something I can afford and am not ignoring any other financial obligations that I have. Other than a few beers here and there, I don't drink, never done drugs, way too old to chase women so this is my fun...

Anyway, back to the OP question....last week I traded an amp that I was no longer using for a custom built Revelator Esquire; not as well known as some other boutique builders like Crook or Nash or Kirn. To me, this guitar blows almost all of my Fenders out of the water. It looks like the real deal, plays like "buttah" and sounds better than most of my other guitars. Would I have paid +$3000 for it new?? Probably not, mainly because, unlike my Fenders, it was pretty much unknown guitar. Now that I've played it for a few days, I'm seriously thinking about having Eric make me something else to my specs, which probably will cost less than a Master Built Fender.

Bottom line, to paraphrase getbent....buy what you like and like what you buy......

golfnut · January 6th, 2009, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mudbean

O.K., you're drivin me nuts, I gotta know: what is not perfect about your Hot Rod '52 Tele?

mud

I don't know. I just keep hearing how perfect these $4,000 booteek geetars are and I get the feeling mine must be less than perfect.
When I'm playing my Hot Rod tele through my Z Stangray it sure sounds and feels perfect to me. I gotta quit gassing for stuff that I hear others bragging about I guess.

TerryOz · January 6th, 2009, 10:04 PM

I have tried Glendales and several others guitars of this level and they were OK...To me The BEST non vintage Telecasters you can buy are from the Custom Shop AND they are Fenders! They offer all the different models from before the CBS changes and some others...No need for Masterbuilt, which are great, you will be rapt with a well selected guitar from the Time Machine Series...I'd be looking for a Relic with the least relicing carried out on it, I think most would like the thinner finish and the slightly lived in feel...

rhinocaster · January 6th, 2009, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TerryOz

I have tried Glendales and several others guitars of this level and they were OK...To me The BEST non vintage Telecasters you can buy are from the Custom Shop AND they are Fenders! They offer all the different models from before the CBS changes and some others...No need for Masterbuilt, which are great, you will be rapt with a well selected guitar from the Time Machine Series...I'd be looking for a Relic with the least relicing carried out on it, I think most would like the thinner finish and the slightly lived in feel...

I love Fender Custom Shop guitars!

Still, non have knocked my Glendale out of my hands!

BeeTL · January 7th, 2009, 01:40 AM

I have nothing to add, but I enjoy these threads...

Mack · January 7th, 2009, 04:15 AM

I think as you 'grow' as a guitarist your ear and tastes develop to create an idea of what to you is the ideal guitar. I have been a PRS collector - at one point in time my collection was worth a small fortune and I bought on impulse and collectablility, yet today I have not a single PRS iin my herd. However I still have my Telecasters and my Les Paul - all of which I have owned from before my PRS facination and neither of which are worth anything close to even the cheapest PRS I owned. Why is this? Well, as good a 'players' as the PRS instruments were (are? thats a subjective one...), none of them gave me the tone in my head. Visually, they stopped floating my boat too - my heros simply wouldnt look right with a PRS I guess - Slash with a 10 top Single cut? Knoplfler with a Custom 24? Nah... the shoe dont fit. I gave up on the pomp and circumstance of a 10 top with gold plated baubles in favour of something that plays right, feels right, sounds right and yes - looks right. Even when I had the PRS's, my 'go to' guitar was a tele and this was the one guitar that other players always singled out for its tone and playability - not the $10k PRS's. PRS today lauds the arrival of Pauls hand made PRS '28' with a price tag somewhere in the stratosphere of around $30k... this is laughable and clearly an indication that the money side of things has affected his appreciation of his craft and who his products are aimed at. OK, if he sells it - and Im sure he will since there are a bunch of well healed collectors out there, then good luck to the guy. But for me and my back to basics approach, I just need my simple honest Tele to hit 80% of my needs and for the remaining 10%, I have a Les Paul and a Martin. Boutique? Been there, done that.... and Im still back with the Tele. Go figure.

Mack.

January 6th, 2009, 11:03 AM	#1 (permalink)
golfnut Tele-Holic Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Canada Age: 49 Posts: 974	Expensive boutique guitars versus Good Fender guitars I have a couple of pretty good guitars. I find that quality wise they are a step up from American Standard. My plan was to maybe buy a Tele style boutique like a Crook or Grosh. I've been playing my 52 Hotrod Tele and 62 Hotrod strat now for a few months and I'm beginning to wonder if it is necessary. I love my guitars. They aren't perfect but then neither am I. I'm wondering if some of the guitars imperfections actually add character to the guitar. Am I going to sound better or play better on a $4,000 guitar? Probably not. Is it going to feel better? Maybe. Is spending the double the amount for a guitar actually getting me better all around? Or mainly just different? The 63 Tele that I used to own many years ago would probably be worth more than my guitars that I own now but I don't remember that it was any better than what I have now. I'd like to know what justifies people to go out and buy a $4,000 boutique guitar instead of the better quality Fenders, such as the vintage series. __________________ CS Nocaster Martin HD28V Dr Z Stangray head - 2X12 Open back cab W/Celestion Blues. Dr Z Zverb Victoria Victorilux 3X10

January 6th, 2009, 11:16 AM	#2 (permalink)
twangcaster1 Friend of Leo's Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: SLC, UT Posts: 2,201 15 Photos	"Better" is in they eye of the beholder. People like Bill Crook, Floyd Cassista, and others like them build great guitars that you can't compare to factory stamped cookie cutters. Fender makes great guitars and some of history's greatest music was recorded on the simplest and even flawed vintage Fender guitars, proving that they sound good, feel good, and they'll get the job done. However, if you have the money and it is what you want, you don't need to justify buying that Crook or Floyd. Just buy it and play it and if you like it, it's worth the money you spent for it. I've got an American Ash Telecaster with a Glendale Bridge and Saddles, Lindy Fralin pickups, a Plek Job, and a professional shielding job done on it and I easily consider it to be on the same level as a Crook or any other boutique tele. However, it certainly isn't just a "straight off the shelf of Sam Ash" telecaster. It's had some real upgrades and tweaking done to it to get it that way. It was expensive, but yeah, I definitely feel like it was worth it. __________________ Louisiana Twangmaker

January 6th, 2009, 11:23 AM	#5 (permalink)
superbadj Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: roanoke, va Age: 35 Posts: 1,821 24 Photos	Why do people buy them? Hmmmm.....can of worms there. Personally, I think there is a massive, massive, massive rule of diminishing returns as guitar costs rise. Sure, there are some things that might, somewhere, make a difference. But I think it's much more minor than people like to think. If you've got the money, and there's some $5000 guitar you want, and you can truly afford it, then go for it. Why not. It's what you want. But I don't think there's much (or anything) that guitar can do that many, many other guitars at much cheaper price points can't do. It's kinda like golf. People spend TONS on golf equipment (i used to work at a club). They were terrible, horrible golfers. And they had thousands of dollars of custom-fit equipment that they'd sell each year and buy something new because that was going to make them better. But there was a dude there at the club that didn't have a lot of money, and could shoot in the 60's just about anytime he wanted, using pretty cheap equipment. It's not hte clubs, it's the golfer. Same for guitar. I've heard guys pull magic out of really cheap acoustics. And I've heard wankers just wank away on uber-expensive guitars. In addition two a couple of Teles and a few other guitars, I have a Gretsch 5125, an excellent, big-ole hollowbody with outstanding DeArmond pickups in it. I really like the guitar, and I got it for a freaking STEAL. But for whatever reason, I still really, really want a Gretsch 6118 and/or a White Falcon. Why? Are they worth $1500 to $2000 (6118), and even more for the Falcon? Especially when you consider that my 5125 sounds and plays great and cost me....brand freaking new.....$400. Are they worth 4, 5, 6, 8 times as much? In terms of sound?? Absolutely not. But I still want one. I may never actually justify the cost. But I want one. I love the two-tone smoke green on the Annie, and you just gotta love the over-the-top Falcon treatment. But I would still only be as good as I am on the 5125. Custom builders that can give you some quirky custom options, well that might be worth it I guess. But if you're just going a straight T-style........I just don't see it. Plus, there are guys like Ron Kirn that sell more "affordable" custom creations (compared to some of the guys out there). I'm sure the workmanship is top notch. __________________ ___________________________________________ www.dudleycreative.com Rhythm is an area, not a point! -My brother

January 6th, 2009, 11:36 AM	#7 (permalink)
<jbc> Tele-Meister Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Switzerland Posts: 473 4 Photos	So you mean like the standard models vs. the Custom Shop? __________________ . les cheaz

January 6th, 2009, 11:48 AM	#8 (permalink)
Doug 54 Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ohio, Dayton area Posts: 1,308	"ear" of the beholder. Sent back a new Tom Anderson in Oct. It was pretty gd--- but not great like my other one. My AS Fender T is fantastic. u don't know 'til you play it. __________________ "Cowboys to Girls"

January 6th, 2009, 11:20 AM	#3 (permalink)
musicmatty Tele-Holic Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Germantown Maryland Age: 42 Posts: 871 5 Photos	Sometimes it's just the obsession of having and being able to say I spent such and such amount on my axe. I have tried many guitars at different levels like most on here...not saying that I ownded any of them..just tried them out. None of the High end guitars played or felt any better than the cheaper ones that were set up properly. And to the contrary, I have experieced better sounding Cheaper guitars than most of the expensive one's. The only guitar that I felt was an exceptional guitar and above all others that I had played, was an original Guild acustic before Gibson bought them. It was the best guitar ever in my hands.

January 6th, 2009, 11:24 AM	#6 (permalink)
purpletele Tele-Holic Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Morgantown,WV Posts: 827 20 Photos	It also has alot to do with getting all the features you want that may noy be present in any standard production model. Most custom builders are still cheaper than having something built by the custom shop.

January 6th, 2009, 12:01 PM	#9 (permalink)
rhinocaster Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Oregon Age: 45 Posts: 1,863	If it's about impressing others, then someone is much better off playing a Fender and a Marshall than anything else. More players and non players know and are impressed by these names than any of the boutique stuff. In most cases, I've experienced that people think I can't afford the good stuff when I gig my boutique gear! On the plus side, that probably makes it more resistant to theft at a show. I play what I play because I like it. It really is as simple as that. I like the sound, feel and knowledge that I'm supporting a small builder that is carrying on the tradition of hand building gear. There are lots of great guitars out there. Find something you like and play it! __________________ Just because I "Don't" get it doesn't mean I "Won't" get it!

January 6th, 2009, 12:43 PM	#10 (permalink)
PixelMover Tele-Holic Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Boston Area Age: 32 Posts: 612	Can't say I have a highly experienced professional opinion but after playing a Hahn, a Kirn, and a handful of CS teles the other day, the Hahn and Kirn felt very solidly built. Can't make an off-the-cuff tone comparison because of the different Pups but the quality of craftsmanship in the Hahn and Kirn looked, and more importantly (to me) "felt" better. I didn't have a 52' RI on hand to compare. Whether you want to spend the $$$ is another matter. If you can't tell the difference in sound then why spend the money? __________________ "Should've taken a left turn at Albuquerque."

January 6th, 2009, 12:58 PM	#11 (permalink)
GuitarJonz Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Mass. Posts: 3,193 7 Photos	Get a low cost tele that you like the feel and acoustic tone of (MIM Classic 50s or 60s, MIJ 50's Telecaster, MIJ Squier, etc), then install premium pickups like Don Mare. In a blind taste test, nobody could tell the difference between it and the $5,000 guitar, or dare I say, the $50,000 blackguard tele.

January 6th, 2009, 12:58 PM	#12 (permalink)
pengipete Friend of Leo's Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: UK Posts: 3,557	Slightly leading title here - "expensive" versus "good". There's also the point that these are both subjective terms. My Baja is both "expensive" - compared with some other guitars - and "good" - compared with some other gutars. When comparing two items like this you can only assess their value for money and that assessment especially on on luxury goods that are not essential for survival includes how they make you feel. In other words - only you can decide if the money is well spent.

January 6th, 2009, 01:06 PM	#14 (permalink)
professir TDPRI Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Green Bay Wis Age: 54 Posts: 33	My view may be shaded a bit by hanging around the mandolin world, (where $5K gets you started, and a "good" instrument can be triple that) and the acoustic guitar world where a custom guitar from a luthier can be $10K. In both cases, the same discussion happens, "Why not just buy an off the shelf Martin, or Eastman?" In the end, it comes down to personal preference. I play a custom guitar I had built for me 25 years ago and have never regretted a single moment or penny. Is it "better" then the Martin? Who knows, and frankly who cares. I wanted this guitar for a bunch of reasons, and I love it. My buddy loves his Martin. ALL of them are fantastic instruments, and worth to be played. So, my advise is, get what you truly love and want, try to not buy to please others, and PLAY THAT GUITAR MAN!!!!!!! I have a friend that has more then 2 doz custom built mandolins, the cheapest being over $7K and he cant tune them. THAT is sin. Oh yes, one more thing, post pics of it! I love eye candy. blessings, Ray

January 6th, 2009, 01:09 PM	#15 (permalink)
golfnut Tele-Holic Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Canada Age: 49 Posts: 974	Thank you for all the replies. This really helps me work through this. I am one of those impulsive guys that will buy the biggest baddest because I'm told its the biggest baddest. This is the type of insanity I want to stop. I can definitely tell the difference between my guitars and the American standards or MIM. I'm not going to say better but just that the AS and MIM don't do for me what the Vintage series guitars do. Maybe thats just the sound I'm after. I'm sure I could have crook or whoever make me a guitar to perfection and I'd probably hear a difference but all I know is that I don't feel handicapped playing the guitars that I do. I really enjoy them. I'm through with the impressing "I've got a $3,000 whatever". So I'm thinking that maybe it isn't worth me ordering a custom. And I hate ordering a guitar spending all kinds of money before I get to play it. I have played the CS Nocaster and I like it good enough to some day buy one if I can get it with a 9.5 rad fingerboard. I think for me the thing I have to get past is that I love the way my current guitars feel and sound and just be happy with what I have. I know that most of my allure to a custom boutique guitar is that I hear everybody talk about how wonderful and perfect they are. And who doesn't want wonderful and perfect. __________________ CS Nocaster Martin HD28V Dr Z Stangray head - 2X12 Open back cab W/Celestion Blues. Dr Z Zverb Victoria Victorilux 3X10

January 6th, 2009, 01:17 PM	#16 (permalink)
hollowman Tele-Holic Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Kansas City Age: 45 Posts: 780	I think it is natural for most people, especially here in the good ole USA, to want fancier, more expensive stuff, wether it be guitars or TV's or whatever. But for a buying decision, I thikn it comes down to your personal financial situtation... can you scratch that $4000 check without a sweat? then do it, if you must. You probably can re-sell if necessary, and not take too big a hit. If you can't afford it, then just be happy with what you have. I am strongly considering a custom tele build by my local luthier. He is not famous yet, so i can have him build me a tele for about $1000, maybe a little more. BUT, it will be to whatever specs I want, neck radius, fret size, pickups, bridge, color, wood, etc... Now i could spend a little more and get a brand new Fender Am Std, but as i've found out in the local GC, I've never found one that I really like, 100%, enough to drop $1300 on. Good luck, show us a pic if you go the boutique route!!! __________________ "In a land where all are blind, the one eyed man is king"

January 6th, 2009, 01:52 PM	#19 (permalink)
pengipete Friend of Leo's Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: UK Posts: 3,557	If I posted a photo of my wife and a photo of a Playboy model and asked for honest opinions on which was "best" the chances are that most men would prefer the bunny girl. I'd pick Dee everytime cos she my perfect woman. The same would count for a great many members - I know cos I've read a load of posts from chaps here who obviously adore their wife. We all make choices that we can't explain outside of "it's right for me".

January 6th, 2009, 01:59 PM	#20 (permalink)
smoke Tele-Meister Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Shawnee, KS Age: 36 Posts: 248	So they can put it in their signatures for us to see? Or So they can write titles like on message boards: OMG!!!!! CROOK TELE!!!!! OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TWANGTASTIC!!!!!! HAHN TELE!!!! WOW!!!! Or Perhaps because they like them best and have either the money to buy it or sufficient credit card limits to charge it. __________________ Apostle of telecasters.

January 6th, 2009, 02:01 PM	#21 (permalink)
getbent Moderator Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: San Benito County, California Posts: 13,671 37 Photos	Okay, we have clearly established that Pengipete's wife reads the board. __________________ We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are

January 6th, 2009, 02:24 PM	#22 (permalink)
Scott Auld Tele-Meister Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: South Florida Age: 39 Posts: 477	I think it's a losing proposition to start to judge other people's motives as to why they do things, why the make certain choices, why they buy X instead of Z, etc. We can make value judgments about actions - but not motives; IMHO. Unless you got a mind-reading machine. Anyway. Golfnut, the guitars you have right now sound real nice to me. So do the ones you're thinking about. But it doesn't matter what we think. :) __________________ I love my computer because all my friends live in it.

January 6th, 2009, 03:10 PM	#25 (permalink)
Old Cane Friend of Leo's Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Murfreesboro, TN Age: 48 Posts: 2,272	People pay that much because they can/want to/ need to. You need a guitar that feels good, plays good, sounds good and stays in tune. Some people can do that for $200, some for $2000. It's all about what you need/want/can afford. It's all about your tastes and ability to pay. __________________ http://www.myspace.com/otiskeithwatkins

January 6th, 2009, 03:53 PM	#26 (permalink)
Jahmbie Tele-Holic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Berea, KY Posts: 919	My AmStd Tele found me about 10 years ago. I was bound and determined to get a Tom Anderson after meeting him at summer NAMM that year. Only one shop in town had TA and usually sold within a week of arrival. I went to try them out and was ready to buy when I saw the Tele and picked it up. $600 later it was going home with me. Every other instrument has almost found me this way, they just feel right and I know it within 5 seconds. My only "one that got away" was a 1947 Gibson J-45 that a college girlfriend's dad had gathering dust in his closet and almost gave me. We broke up the next week. I still look around, but most of the time I just want to get home and play my guitars. __________________ "I'm not responsible for anyone's gruntlement" - Lt. Col. Henry Blake

January 6th, 2009, 06:45 PM	#28 (permalink)
Bill Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bay Area, California Posts: 3,181 67 Photos	This album should be required listening for this discussion: Tone Poems Listen to some of the samples. It's David Grisman on mandolin and Tony Rice on acoustic guitar. They are playing a different pair of vintage instruments on each recording. Some are fine old Martins. But there are some cheapo (at the time) instruments on there as well. Try and tell the difference. Bill __________________ B i l l B a e c k WilliamBaeck.com

January 6th, 2009, 07:21 PM	#29 (permalink)
maestrovert Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Somewhere over the rainbow Posts: 8,024	my Grandpa had a sayin' that in my own experience has proven to be true many times over: "Quality is always worth the price..... .....but only to a point, after that you're just payin' for a name..." i own some custom builds that are fine instruments indeed, but i also have cheap homebrew partscasters and lowly MIMs that are fine instruments as well.... Relative value judgements are relatively easy... ...really, the only question is: what's it worth to you ? However, if one contemplates an instrument purchase hoping to impress someone else with one's possessions, then one's motives are based on falsehood.... jes' mho, ymmv

January 6th, 2009, 07:35 PM	#30 (permalink)
Mr.Reed Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Lake Stevens, WA Age: 20 Posts: 1,047	Well I want to get my two cents in!!! Here is how I feel about it. So far in my life of guitars (roughly 4 years or so), I went from wanting a Gibson Les Paul, just cause Jimmy Page payed one (also I want the most expensive one :P), to constructing my own, and finding a sound that doesn't quite exist in guitars. However after my semester in comm 101, it's easy to answer the question of WHY people want them. In America and in other developed countries, you are often defined not by your net worth (as most people will never know this info), or your deeds (because that's a book no one cares to read), but more by the things you own, because they are the easiest to see. Now this may not be the most evident reason to you, but that's because it's culturally ingrained, so that you don't think of it, but that it's a thought that runs in the background. That being said... I still want a 12 string Rickenbacker :) __________________ "There is nothing like the smell of "Twang" in the morning" - Arlo Last edited by Mr.Reed; January 6th, 2009 at 07:37 PM. Reason: first line

January 6th, 2009, 07:36 PM	#31 (permalink)
stevedenver Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: the mile high city Posts: 1,264 14 Photos	much comon sense above it is about what you want there is also perhaps a presumption that isnt always correct that something boutique is MORE expensive than the production equivalent case in point my lentz t -imho much more than the 5-6 CS nocasters i auditioned and no comparison to a 52 RI-(i was far biased toward buying a fender product for a whole bunch of reasons-i changed and came full circle the lentz was 300 less than the CS nocaster also somewhat close was my Mission 5E3 kit with upgrade tranny and speaker-was hell bent to go Victoria or clark until i did side by sides-Mission was almost $500 less than the Vic with a jenson-and the Mission had a blue dog (yes my labor was free-my point is about the brand name thing versus value) but yes i know this isnt usually the case with boutiques as said, its only about what makes you happy-no need to justify __________________ Im really a Les Paul guy at heart, but .....

January 6th, 2009, 08:11 PM	#33 (permalink)
The S1W TDPRI Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 31	'Surf's up' My favourite guitar ever is my '57 Cal-Beach Tele, also my cheapest. I play it all the time. And the more I play it, the more I like it. I've owned guitars that cost six times as much and played better, but I'm gonna play this one for the rest of my days, 'cause it gets better every day and has such a head start over anything else that they could never catch up in the mojo stakes. It 'aint that pretty, it's not pristine, it has a Lollar Charlie Christian in the neck but it's priceless to me.

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January 6th, 2009, 08:28 PM	#34 (permalink)
Big Steve Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 473	I have been playing, buying, building and trading guitar for about 25 years now. I have owned well over 100 guitars and probably closer to 200. For the first 10 to 15 years, I didn't know much about good setups and moifying guitars. I just played them the way they came. Then one day I took my guitar to a professional tech and had it set up and some pickups put into it. I was amazed at how much better a guitar could play with a proper set up. I then started have all my guitars set up. I was then was lucky enough to run into Don Mare about 5 years ago at Sam Ash. We became friends and he helped me build my first parts tele. It turned out better than any tele I had ever laid my hands on. It was because he really knew teles and paid attention to every last piece and really got everything out of it. Since I was lucky enough to meet someone who really knows teles whom share his knowledge I didn't have to pay the premium to get a great tele. Teles can be so much better than they come stock. It is a cumulation of a lot of little different things that all ad up. These great builders know these little things. People are willing to pay for that knowledge. If you really want a top end tele, there are a lot approaches to get one. The big name builders are the quickest and easist way to get there but they are also the most expensive. Justify however you need to, but once you play a really great guitar, it is hard to go back and play lesser ones. And when I am talking great guitars, they can be had at all price points. Some people are most interested in the names on the headstock, if that is the case, their only approach is the most expensive one.

January 6th, 2009, 08:31 PM	#35 (permalink)
Joe M Moderator Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,856	OK, gotta throw in my two cents here....my entire small collection is all CS Teles and Strats (except for my first "good" guitar, a 1977 Strat). I always felt they were far and away better than any other guitar that Fender made. I used to feel a little guilty with all the money I have invested when I consider myself a mediocre player with 98% of my playing at home. Then I realized that it's something I can afford and am not ignoring any other financial obligations that I have. Other than a few beers here and there, I don't drink, never done drugs, way too old to chase women so this is my fun... Anyway, back to the OP question....last week I traded an amp that I was no longer using for a custom built Revelator Esquire; not as well known as some other boutique builders like Crook or Nash or Kirn. To me, this guitar blows almost all of my Fenders out of the water. It looks like the real deal, plays like "buttah" and sounds better than most of my other guitars. Would I have paid +$3000 for it new?? Probably not, mainly because, unlike my Fenders, it was pretty much unknown guitar. Now that I've played it for a few days, I'm seriously thinking about having Eric make me something else to my specs, which probably will cost less than a Master Built Fender. Bottom line, to paraphrase getbent....buy what you like and like what you buy......

January 6th, 2009, 10:04 PM	#37 (permalink)
TerryOz Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: South Australia Age: 55 Posts: 240	Custom Shop Dude!!! I have tried Glendales and several others guitars of this level and they were OK...To me The BEST non vintage Telecasters you can buy are from the Custom Shop AND they are Fenders! They offer all the different models from before the CBS changes and some others...No need for Masterbuilt, which are great, you will be rapt with a well selected guitar from the Time Machine Series...I'd be looking for a Relic with the least relicing carried out on it, I think most would like the thinner finish and the slightly lived in feel... __________________ *Tele-Contented* *"Amateurs practice until they get it right...Professionals practice until they cant get it wrong!"*

January 7th, 2009, 01:40 AM	#39 (permalink)
BeeTL Tele-Meister Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Palm Harbor, FL Age: 44 Posts: 205	I have nothing to add, but I enjoy these threads...

January 7th, 2009, 04:15 AM	#40 (permalink)
Mack TDPRI Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 63	I think as you 'grow' as a guitarist your ear and tastes develop to create an idea of what to you is the ideal guitar. I have been a PRS collector - at one point in time my collection was worth a small fortune and I bought on impulse and collectablility, yet today I have not a single PRS iin my herd. However I still have my Telecasters and my Les Paul - all of which I have owned from before my PRS facination and neither of which are worth anything close to even the cheapest PRS I owned. Why is this? Well, as good a 'players' as the PRS instruments were (are? thats a subjective one...), none of them gave me the tone in my head. Visually, they stopped floating my boat too - my heros simply wouldnt look right with a PRS I guess - Slash with a 10 top Single cut? Knoplfler with a Custom 24? Nah... the shoe dont fit. I gave up on the pomp and circumstance of a 10 top with gold plated baubles in favour of something that plays right, feels right, sounds right and yes - looks right. Even when I had the PRS's, my 'go to' guitar was a tele and this was the one guitar that other players always singled out for its tone and playability - not the $10k PRS's. PRS today lauds the arrival of Pauls hand made PRS '28' with a price tag somewhere in the stratosphere of around $30k... this is laughable and clearly an indication that the money side of things has affected his appreciation of his craft and who his products are aimed at. OK, if he sells it - and Im sure he will since there are a bunch of well healed collectors out there, then good luck to the guy. But for me and my back to basics approach, I just need my simple honest Tele to hit 80% of my needs and for the remaining 10%, I have a Les Paul and a Martin. Boutique? Been there, done that.... and Im still back with the Tele. Go figure. Mack.