Nut quality/cut affects fretted chords/notes???

[Ignatius]

I've been playing a long time and I know a thing or three about guitars - or at least I think I do until I learn something new on the interwebs. The hard part is filtering out the ballyhoo, poppycock, and balderdash.

I just read a post on another forum where a few people were insisting that a well cut, good quality nut affects the tone of the guitar, even for fretted notes and chords.

I've always believed that the moment you fret a note, you remove the nut from the equation. That said, I have a Tele that has a Mexican Nashville Deluxe neck on it (el cheapo nut) and that guitar seems less lively than my other Teles. Made me go 'hmmm.....'

I thought I'd come to the TDPRI and get the authoritative last word on the subject. So if you know your nuts, please chime in.

[Ronkirn]

I've always believed that the moment you fret a note, you remove the nut from the equation.

My thoughts exactly.. the nut effects 6 notes.... that's 'bout it.. except on a 12 string guitar...

Ron Kirn

[jkingma]

Originally Posted by Ronkirn

My thoughts exactly.. the nut effects 6 notes....
Ron Kirn

...and a bunch of harmonics.

[superbadj]

It's easy for people to post anything they want to.

It's a bit harder for them to explain why what they're saying is true.

When you fret a note, nothing moves except the string between the fret and the bridge.

For that matter, people claim to hear sonic differences in fretboards. Some say it's the hardness of maple vs the softer rosewood or ebony. Some say Maple has more mass. Well, hmm....the string rings between the fret and the bridge, and never touches the fretboard (on the ringing section of the string), so how could the hardness matter? And the fretboard slice (on rosewood or ebony, or ever 2-piece capped maple necks) is so thin, is there really any way that the mass difference (if there is one) could matter enough to hear through an amp?

Guitar players are voodoo/mojo loving fools sometimes (and I'm absolutely not immune!). Most of it is just that: voodoo.

[dilbone]

I wouldn't say the nut can effect the tone of more than 6 notes...but it does limit the ability to intonate if it isn't cut properly.

To sharp the notes on the first several frets is obviously an issue of a poorly cut nut... but not a tone issue as suggested...

[Telemarkman]

Originally Posted by superbadj

Some say it's the hardness of maple vs the softer rosewood or ebony.

The Janka Hardness Scale: The Janka hardness test is a measurement of the force necessary to embed a .444-inch steel ball to half its diameter in wood. It is the industry standard for gauging the ability of various species to tolerate denting and normal wear, as well as being a good indication of the effort required to either nail or saw the particular wood.

According to this test, ebony has a hardness value of 3220, rosewood 1780 and hard maple 1450 - which means that both rosewood and especially ebony, are considerably harder than maple.

However, the often thick finish on a maple fretboard makes it seem/feel harder, but this is not the case if we look at the wood itself.

[JDaveG]

Originally Posted by dilbone

I wouldn't say the nut can effect the tone of more than 6 notes...but it does limit the ability to intonate if it isn't cut properly.

That's kind of my take, too.

It can affect the SOUND of the guitar, since a poorly cut nut can cause string buzzing, poor intonation, and can even cause the guitar to go out of tune on bends, etc.

But affecting the base TONE of the guitar? Yeah, only on those 6 open strings.

I typically look for durability and/or lubricity (preferably both, but that's asking a lot) in nut material. I'm not looking to improve the tone.

[superbadj]

Originally Posted by Telemarkman

The Janka Hardness Scale: The Janka hardness test is a measurement of the force necessary to embed a .444-inch steel ball to half its diameter in wood. It is the industry standard for gauging the ability of various species to tolerate denting and normal wear, as well as being a good indication of the effort required to either nail or saw the particular wood.

According to this test, ebony has a hardness value of 3220, rosewood 1780 and hard maple 1450 - which means that both rosewood and especially ebony, are considerably harder than maple.

However, the often thick finish on a maple fretboard makes it seem/feel harder, but this is not the case if we look at the wood itself.

Hmmm....didn't know that! Yeah, i've always felt that people's preferences between maple fretboards or darker woods (rosewood, ebony, etc.) was because of finish...the fact that maple often has a slick hard finish that feels more slippery for bends, and rosewood and ebony typically aren't finished at all, so they "grip" the strings and your fingers a bit more.

But I also assumed that maple, since it is so preferred for necks (along with Mahogany), was harder.

But regardless, we agree: it's about the finish affecting the feel, not the wood actually changing the tone.

[PixelMover]

Good topic.

Ron, I have a USA Strat with the stock nut. People are telling me though, to install a new bone nut. Will this give me any noticeable tone difference?

I have no idea what a nut costs but the labor will be what an hour or two? $200 for the whole deal?

For this money I can put in new Fralin Hots

[mellecaster]

Originally Posted by PixelMover

Good topic.

Ron, I have a USA Strat with the stock nut. People are telling me though, to install a new bone nut. Will this give me any noticeable tone difference?

I have no idea what a nut costs but the labor will be what an hour or two? $200 for the whole deal?

For this money I can put in new Fralin Hots

I'm not Ron, but I do have a Repair business, Myself and many others charge about $65.00 total for a hand cut installed Bone nut....Most think they can hear a difference....the operative work being THINK...but mostly so they can Brag to their Pals, that they have a Genuine Bone nut...Your USA Strat has a fine Factory nut as it is...might just need the slots looked at, and Filed.

[pengipete]

There will be some vibration through the neck that will cause some interaction with the nut. I can't imagine that this will in any way translate into a tonal effect but a loose nut may vibrate and buzz.

Of course the nut does more that simply provide the string length - it needs to be properly cut and of the right material to avoid snagging the strings when bent or even during the minute amount of movement when fretted but I wouldn't call that a tonal effect.

[fullerplast]

Originally Posted by Ignatius

I've always believed that the moment you fret a note, you remove the nut from the equation.

No, an improperly cut nut will do horrible things to your intonation in any fretted notes around the first four frets. It establishes your string spacing and the closeness to the edge of the fretboard for the outer strings. It determines how well your guitar stays in tune and it determines what happens to your tuning if you bend a string or use a tremolo. A guitar with a poor nut can make a guitar miserable to play.

As for isolating just the element of tone, almost all of the tonal impact due to the material of the nut will be on the open strings. While that is important too, IMHO the relative importance of the nut cut and material goes more towards the other elements previously mentioned.

[PixelMover]

Originally Posted by mellecaster

I'm not Ron, but I do have a Repair business, Myself and many others charge about $65.00 total for a hand cut installed Bone nut....Most think they can hear a difference....the operative work being THINK...but mostly so they can Brag to their Pals, that they have a Genuine Bone nut...Your USA Strat has a fine Factory nut as it is...might just need the slots looked at, and Filed.

+1 Thank you for the honesty Mellecaster.

[Jim Lutz]

Originally Posted by fullerplast

No, an improperly cut nut will do horrible things to your intonation in any fretted notes around the first four frets. It establishes your string spacing and the closeness to the edge of the fretboard for the outer strings. It determines how well your guitar stays in tune and it determines what happens to your tuning if you bend a string or use a tremolo. A guitar with a poor nut can make a guitar miserable to play.

As for isolating just the element of tone, almost all of the tonal impact due to the material of the nut will be on the open strings. While that is important too, IMHO the relative importance of the nut cut and material goes more towards the other elements previously mentioned.

+1

Also, an improper depth of the nut slot will really mess up the intonation up the neck. I'm a stickler about the string spacing too, and that emanates from the nut. I hate the E strings falling off the neck if they're too close to the edge. But if the strings are TOO close together, then open chords are a mess up at the first 3 frets.

imho, ymmv.

[Ronkirn]

Try this... I mean Really... go to any decent guitar shop... and honestly look away and have a really good guitarist play several guitars without first becoming familiar with the guitars sound or any aspect of the guitars being played… then try to identify the nut material, fret board wood, material the frets are made of, paint, etc etc... or, how loud the shirt the guy playing the guitar is..

My continuing point is, most of the changes I see guys want to incorporate in their guitars would be analogous to going from 87 octane to 93 or whatever in their fuel tank... for most, their driving would never reveal any difference AT ALL, except when they look in their wallet.

Now that said,,, DO NOT think I am dissuading anyone from “modding” their axe to their liking… sometimes having what you want strapped around your shoulders is far more important than any “sonic reality”. And if some tiny piece of guitar “bling” makes ya happy, damn man, don’t ask, just do it…

But do not, for a moment thing that adding some “whatever” to your guitar, or buying a new one made out of all “period correct” goodies will make you a better player EXCEPT by virtue of the psychological factors that come into play.

Therefore I can say, absolutely definitively the following statement is true and empirical. Anything you choose to change about your guitar will absolutely change it, making it sound better and you play better, unless it doesn’t.

Allow me to interject, my initial reply was made under the assumption that the nut IS correctly cut, seated and glued in the slot.

Ron Kirn

[twangcaster1]

Originally Posted by Ronkirn

Therefore I can say, absolutely definitively the following statement is true and empirical. Anything you choose to change about your guitar will absolutely change it, making it sound better and you play better, unless it doesn’t.

Allow me to interject, my initial reply was made under the assumption that the nut IS correctly cut, seated and glued in the slot.

Ron Kirn

[pengipete]

"Therefore I can say, absolutely definitively the following statement is true and empirical. Anything you choose to change about your guitar will absolutely change it, making it sound better and you play better, unless it doesn’t." - Ron Kirn, January 2009

Classic - you should use this as your sig.

[Ronkirn]

How's that?

rk

[Mark Davis]

I agree with Ron. If your not looking at a guitar all you can tell is if it sounds good or bad to you.

You cant hear the body wood or neck wood or fret size or radius or if its poly or nitro.

You cant tell what brand of strings or what pickups are in it. You cant even tell what amps used either all you can tell when not looking at a guitar player is if it sounds good or bad to you what you think sounds bad someone else might actually like too.

[TG]

Originally Posted by Ronkirn

Try this... I mean Really... go to any decent guitar shop... and honestly look away and have a really good guitarist play several guitars without first becoming familiar with the guitars sound or any aspect of the guitars being played… then try to identify the nut material, fret board wood, material the frets are made of, paint, etc etc... or, how loud the shirt the guy playing the guitar is..

Perhaps I'm wrong and someone can correct me, but I honestly cannot remember anyone around here ever claiming to be able to do that.

Here's something you can do. Go to a guitar shop and do the same thing with someone playing a new Gibson SG, a Les Paul and an ES335. I'd be very surprised if you could tell which one is being played.
Does that 'prove' there's no difference between them? Not at all.

But maybe buy them and play them out in different environments for a while. Or ask players who have.
There will be differences.


As far as I can tell, there's no definite consensus around here that any particular material for any particular body part always makes an improvement or even a consistent type of tonal quality. Or that cost and 'desirability' is always proportionate to subjective sound quality/improvement.

But we do hear differences when we change things around. To expect us to believe otherwise is like expecting us to believe every telecaster on every shop wall is exactly the same sound wise and that we shouldn't worry about choosing one over another in that regard. That ain't gonna happen.
Change a guitar part = it becomes a new guitar to some extent = its tonal/response characteristics change.
Exactly how they will change it's impossible to say. But we do enjoy looking into it and discussing it.
And if I recall correctly, we don't always get posts rabbitting cliches about what should happen according to 'internet BS', so we aren't all hearing what we 'expect' to.

Originally Posted by Ronkirn

My continuing point is, most of the changes I see guys want to incorporate in their guitars would be analogous to going from 87 octane to 93 or whatever in their fuel tank... for most, their driving would never reveal any difference AT ALL, except when they look in their wallet.

Actually, anyone who gets higher octane fuel isn't hoping to become a better driver...they're hoping their car becomes better to drive. Different thing.
And note that any effect would probably be subtle and only noticable after driving quite a distance and only to the driver...not to passengers or other drivers.
And it wouldn't be noticable doing an A/B test on the gas station forecourt.

[musicmatty]

I can chime in here on this..cuz I just got 3 of my Tele's back from having there nuts replaced with a Bone nut.

$50.US a pop for each Axe..Yes..I noticed a difference right away. I won't go as far to say the big difference is because it is now bone...but I will say this...The nuts are now cut precise and sounds fully tuned in the lower register for the open chords.

A guitar is an instrument of precision...it should be if it is crafted correctly. A nut is no less important in the whole sum of the sound in terms of pitch and tuning. Yes, you may be fretting notes higher up that the nut has no value to..but think how fast your fingers are fretting and pulling off leaving notes to ring open which the nut does effect... a nut not cut very precise, will leave those notes ringing with a pinch sound or even a bit of wobble..which sounds sloppy to my ears.

After playing in a live setting yesterday with 4 other muscians and having are gig rigs somewhat cranked up...My axe sounded like it hasn't before..TIGHT..just being honest.

I would recomend to any one who is serious about playing and who appreciates a good sound..perhaps even to the point of being anal..like I am...to have their axes handed over right away to a nut specialist and have it cut correctly, before I would make any other mods.

[Ronkirn]

I honestly cannot remember anyone around here ever claiming to be able to do that.

Interestingly, I don’t believe I stated that anyone has made such a claim, however, for those in a quandary as to what nut material, pickups, paint, or whatever, it will make for an honest self evaluation, should they actually want an evaluation.

If you are pondering a change, and you go honestly listen to a number of guitars blind, and find you can detect no difference you may just save a nice hunk of change. Being honestly introspective about one’s own abilities is always a good thing.

As for the difference between a MACK Tuck and a Porsche, or to counter the next volley, a Mercedes and BMW, sure, most with a functioning brain stem could tell the difference, but here I believe we were talking about more subtle nuances.

But we do hear differences when we change things around.

Exactly, do a search on my stereo speaker self examination…

The psychosomatic effect of knowing what we are listening to is overwhelming in all but the most disciplined. Then there is the ability to recall accurately, the latent auditory experience, if not repeated in within about 30 seconds. By that I mean… lets say you want to change a bridge… here’s the short version of what happens…

You play the guitar in its present configuration, deciding you do not like the sound… determining the bridge is the culprit… you choose a likely candidate to replace it with, citing glowing reviews, and perhaps some friend’s experience.

So de-tune….and remove the strings….remove the old bridge, install pup in the new one… reassemble guitar, restring… intonate, and get it setup… and play… time, if you’re good, about 30 minutes…

Results: You play it, you like the sound… making the determination the bridge is totally responsible…

What really happened (in many, far too many cases) <weasel clause since every damn word I type is being hyper analyzed…. First, remember, you played the guitar to gain a reference… ask about anyone with the fancy letters after they’re name and they will tell you, you cannot accurately remember precise sound that long… in reality only about 30 seconds… so by time the bridge was replaced and retuned you reference had vanished.

But.. You removed screws and re installed screws, just doing that on an existing bridge will alter the “tone”, as will “fooling” around with the pickup, oh yeah, did you reposition the pickup to exact parameters didn’t you? Very slight movements will result in altered tones… and what of the strings… removing the existing ones and re string with the same set will alter the response and tone due to the flexing and releasing of tension. And replacing them with new strings???. . . well that change in sound can be heard by all but the deaf…

Then there is the added re-enforcement of “your head” again… you have heard a certain “whatever” is the greatest, you spent probably too much money for that “whatever”, and install it. It violates the basic psyche of homo-sapiens to say.. “opps.. I screwed up…” so you conclude, to reinforce your initial decision to “pull the trigger”, it sounds great.

But this is just the tip of a VERY complex iceberg… There are so many variables involved that assigning any one change to tone improvement is something only the misinformed would extol.

The reason I take the approach I do is, I see every day, people asking about aspects of guitar construction, much of which is nothing more than folklore, hoping that such application will in someway do what quality practice will do. Follow my approach; you become well informed and better guitarists, able to make intelligent decisions about your gear based on pragmatism. Follow the crown and you get lost in an endless quest for “tone”, not to mention the money it costs.

Someone that has a nut changed and notices a remarkable improvement causes me to wonder.. Did they take the guitar and plug it in right there in the shop? Carry it home and do so in their “music room”.. or notice the improvement when playing a “gig”. What we’re talking about is music, at its most basic, it’s just vibrations in the air… look around where you are, right now…. Everything you see will effect the sound you hear….some greatly, some barely perceptible, but effect it, it will. I guarantee you the three “rooms” I mentioned would affect that sound far more than any nut could ever do so. Perhaps we should be discussing changing the room.

Ron Kirn

[TG]

Seriously Ron. That was opinionated, patronising, chock full of assumptions and bore little relationship to my (or anyone else's) post. Do you read other people's posts at all? And if you do read them do you actually think about them? Doesn't seem like it. You didn't respond to the points I raised, you just preached your gospel...again...including the usual insinuations that anyone who doesn't agree with you is foolish and misguided.

'Follow my approach; you become well informed and better guitarists, able to make intelligent decisions about your gear based on pragmatism.'

What the hell? Are you supposed to be our messiah or something? Reading a line like that seriously tempts me to put the forum censor to the test.

You're going to have to go on my ignore list, I think. I'm gonna lose it if I read any more of this sort of thing.

[Ronkirn]

I would be honored to be on your ignore list.. I just spoke with Bill Lawrence about your posts... I'll stay with Bill's philosophy...

Ron Kirn

[PixelMover]

I write far too many emails a day to have the time nor desire to micro-analyze every word in a post. Appreciate the posts and professional opinions Ron. The crux of your argument is clear.

[stephent2]

Originally Posted by Ronkirn

My thoughts exactly.. the nut effects 6 notes.... that's 'bout it.. except on a 12 string guitar...

Ron Kirn

Here we agree Ron (until you get to the 87 octane to 93 thing, my Saabs and I always can tell the difference).

I know we talking tone in the OPs post but a poorly cut nut will effect playability for the first three frets.

[fullerplast]

Part of the reason for the differences of opinion is simply the ambiguity of the OP's post title and content. To be perfectly clear, yes the nut quality and cut absolutely affects fretted chords and notes per the title of the OP. This is where TG, myself, and a few others are coming from.

As for tone itself, per the content of the OP , don't expect a life changing experience between two nuts of different materials if all else is identical. Yes, there can be a difference. Drop several nut blanks of various materials on a hard surface and you can hear the difference. This difference as a percentage of the composite instrument tone will be very small however. This is where Ron is coming from.

Another way to summarize all this is to say that a good nut won't necessarily make a terrible guitar great..... but a poor nut can make a great guitar terrible. Since most guitars fall somewhere in the middle, it's safe to say that you can never realize the full potential of a guitar without having a well cut nut, regardless of material.

[dilbone]

wow, this has been fun to watch...

an incredible wealth of info here...and sometimes fireworks too, I love this place.

Not even mentioning all the physical things that can/may affect the tone of a stringed instrument, the room dynamics as Ron mentioned, and the temperature and density of the air...our brains all interpret sound in different ways...my brain is different than yours...how can I even explain what I hear to you??? I mean the mechanics of our freakin' ears haven't even been discussed yet...lets talk about how my incus, malleus, and stapes are slightly different shape and mass than yours and let's not even talk about the ear drum and its tension and elasticity...and we still haven't even gotten to the brain yet...

All of this is subjective to each listener even if we can account for all of the physics of the sound before it ever gets to the ears of the hearer...

Tone is in the brain of the beholder...or the underpants, as I've seen around here before...

Just like our discussion of string gauge and tone...my brain thinks that 11's sound better right now...that might actually change...I've got 10's on one guitar right now...and I like it...uh oh, I've got a problem now...

[purpletele]

"Just like our discussion of string gauge and tone...my brain thinks that 11's sound better right now...that might actually change...I've got 10's on one guitar right now...and I like it...uh oh, I've got a problem now."

-dilbone

yep, me too. I have multiple guitar personalities.

Regarding the original post, I think the proper function of the nut is much more important than it's factor on overall tone.

[Tom S]

Thanks Ron, for the helpful, common-sense posting. Much appreciated.

[Ronkirn]

'Preciate it....

RK