Pink Paisley Paper

[aztwang]

Rafa..Great Job...Looks amazing...Question, is it an illusion or do I see almost a line or speration, seam in the silver. Most noticable last picture below the switch plate running vertical. Also in the 3rd picture running parellell with the sides of the bridge between the bridge and end of the body.

[cmatthes]

Quick observation, but the '80s MIJ stuff looks like the patterns were traced off of the originals. Not sure exactly how the process was done, but a number of the blossoms on the older pattern have very distinct, precise lines coming from the blooms, whereas the newer paper is more "blobby", which would be the effect of a less exact tracing.

[tomtheguitarguy]

Well stuff like this doesn't do anything to keep the patience in check . . . a Zendrive w/ Crook Paisley Pattern:


http://www.thegearpage.net/board/sho...light=zendrive

[tomtheguitarguy]

BTW,

Great job on that First Sample, Rafa! Keep up the great work! We're all pullin for ya!

[dogggone]

Great job Rafael !
You can count me in if it comes to fruition that you are able to produce more.

[Buckocaster51]

I took some time this morning and took the four (4) paisleys from the piece of '84 paper and matched them up the best I could with this scan of a '68.



you can see that they are not the same shape...except sort of...and the '68 design is much busier than the '84.

we'll never know for sure, but I'll bet that the new stuff was simplified for production reasons which of course relates to money.

Somebody that lives in Fullerton needs to start doing some detective work to get to the bottom of this stuff.

Somewhere there is somebody who can answer many questions.

[1charger69]

Originally Posted by tomtheguitarguy

Well stuff like this doesn't do anything to keep the patience in check . . . a Zendrive w/ Crook Paisley Pattern:


http://www.thegearpage.net/board/sho...light=zendrive

Ill bet ya that was extremely waaaaay over priced lol

[thekillingjoke]

I could go for some pink paisley paper if more's produced.

[dlabstudio]

the 84 paper may have been done by dye sublimation. it is how a lot of wall paper is being made now.

Originally Posted by TDPRI

Buckocaster51 sent me his '84 Paisley paper sample that he bought. I've just had a little time to look at it.

Couple of things.

1. It is not silk-screened. It is either offset printing or rotogravure. I'm not sure which yet.

2. The colors of the pattern are not correct for some reason on the '84 sample. Which is why it doesn't look right on the guitar.

3. Using this sample I could source out the background paper, and then have a printer give me an estimate to offset print this.

4. It was a not a 4-color-process printing. None of the colors are half-toned. It is four spot colors: Dark Red, Dark Pink, Light Pink and Green. I could determine the exact PMS values for each of these colors, but then, that would be creating new paper with incorrect colors.

5. I don't consider this either gift wrap, art paper or wall paper. The background may be one of those, but is too thick to be gift wrap. I think the whole thing was created for Fender. That they did not use something that was already available and off the shelf. Which is why we can't find any more of it.

I ran an ad agency for 25 years. I've printed thousands of items. I've used print shops all over the country. I could get my printing and paper reps together to unlock the secrets of the background paper. Create the necessary 3 step graphic separations of the background and then estimate the actual PMS colors of what this is supposed to be.

I'm confident it could be done. I would be expensive and would cost quite a bit to produce a limited run of the paper. But having this in my hand, I'm fairly confident that it could be done.

I'm just not sure I will or can do it. But I might.

[TDPRI]

Originally Posted by dlabstudio

the 84 paper may have been done by dye sublimation. it is how a lot of wall paper is being made now.

Could be. But looks more like offset printing to me from the way the ink sits on the foil.

[Buckocaster51]

Paul, I will concede to you your years of experience in the biz. There is much of this stuff that I just pretend to think that I might know.

Take a look at this...



it has always been my contention that those "blobs" of ink along the edges are an artifact of a screening process.

Will other printing processes have a similar look?

Whatever the process, in that area of the '84 paper, the red ink missed the mark a smidge, eh?

[TDPRI]

Registration problems are common in all kinds of printing. Each piece of paper printed will have different registration issues. The paper flexes in the press at speed.

Also, this design isn't "trapped". Today a design where colors abut are trapped precisely. In the time before computer design things were trapped by hand and via a subtractive camera process.

Logically it could be silk screened, but since I've got it here in my hands I can look and see that it doesn't look like it is. But I haven't had it reviewed yet by my friends in the printing biz.

[Buckocaster51]

It's not the off-registration printing.

It's the "saw tooth" edge on those red lines...and on the edges of the other colors when we can see them, like the pink in the lower right.

The ink/paint just looks like it has been squeezed through little holes...like holes in a screen.

I have seen silk screened items with that same look.

Laser printers and ink jet printers do the same thing, but on a much, much smaller scale.

Shoot, for all I know, all printing processes may do the same thing.

[TDPRI]

Well, yes and no. Most regular printing is made up of a collection of dots and is printed in 4-color process, with the four colors CYMK (Cyan, Yellow, Magenta and Black) mixing together to create all 3 million colors.

But I don't think this is a process color, I think it is solid PMS colors. Which is to say that the colors are chosen from a a pallet of thousands of Pantone ink colors. Three are specific "spot" colors. In which case they would not be dots. They'd be solid lines.

The reason they don't like like silk screening to me is the type of ink and the relatively tight registration between the colors. Silk screening is a much more manual process and not this tightly registered.

While I've had 30 years experience in this, I'm never 100% positive. So, I'll have to find out to be sure from some experts that I know.

[varakeef]

This may not be relevant to 80's paisley reissue, but I think that according to Telecaster book I have (Duchossoir... you know the "Book") the modern Paislies in James Burton telecaster were silk screened.

On the other hand the question of how 1984 paper is done isn't the real beef here. We can buy reissue Pink Paislies, but we don't love them because they don't look like 1968 version. Basically, we want either better or even perfect paislies...

[TDPRI]

The Tele Bible calls it "wallpaper" but that's what everyone called it back then. Some of use doubt very much it was "wallpaper." In truth, it doesn't say much about the Paisleys.

The '84 paper may have the wrong colors and, it may have a different silver embossed background but I think that it was printed the same way as the 68 paper.

I don't know for sure, but that's my guess.

[dlabstudio]

there are a couple of other details in this image that would lead me to suspect that it was screen printed as well. in the light pink area there is some discoloration (the blotchy darker pink), this commonly caused by either the screen breaking down during the printing process or the back of the screen being wiped down during the process with a bit of smearing causing a transfer of ink to areas not intended. (having said that, it could also have been cause by 25 years of scuffing and rubbing etc even if it was stored carefully) you can see it in the green area as well. the jagged lines are also a pretty strong indication it was screen printed, it will often happen when a courser mesh count screen is used. not having the paper in hand though, it is difficult to tell, does the ink have any dimension to it? like if you were to look at it through a loupe, does it appear raised? based on what i can see, if i had to gamble, i would put my money on screen printing.

one thing i would like to point out is, if there is a version 1 (the 60's paper) and a version 2 (the 80's paper) why not come up with a definitive version 3 which utilizes a more contemporary means of production? it seems like it would fall right in with the evolution of this design and in the end, i don't think, that if given the choice between using a difficult process or a less difficult process, that fender would have have chosen the more difficult one? unless of course it is about authenticity in which case, reproducing the design becomes a mute point.

Originally Posted by Buckocaster51

Paul, I will concede to you your years of experience in the biz. There is much of this stuff that I just pretend to think that I might know.

Take a look at this...



it has always been my contention that those "blobs" of ink along the edges are an artifact of a screening process.

Will other printing processes have a similar look?

Whatever the process, in that area of the '84 paper, the red ink missed the mark a smidge, eh?

[RCinMempho]

Thank you all for sucking me in to a thread about a guitar I never really liked in the first place.

You guys have me following this like a soap opera.

[dlabstudio]

csi paisley.

Originally Posted by RCinMempho

Thank you all for sucking me in to a thread about a guitar I never really liked in the first place.

You guys have me following this like a soap opera.

[TDPRI]

Originally Posted by dlabstudio

does the ink have any dimension to it? like if you were to look at it through a loupe, does it appear raised?

I've looked at it through my 8X loupe -- I don't see much in the way of dimension to the ink, and this includes where there is ink built up on ink. So that makes me feel like it's offset. But I do see some splatter. Which could be silk-screening.

As for the "dots" I see those, but I'm not sure it's a remnant of the printing process. It looks hand drawn -- I'm sure of it -- and the dots look more like pen marks than printing dots.

I'll try to get some printing folks I know to look at this. And, get some more definitive answers. I'm pretty tied up with the Fundraiser at the moment. So as soon as that gets going I'll have more time.

You know, the bulk of my silk-screening experience is with fabrics. Banners and T-Shirts and stuff. Which is very thick ink. I also have a little experience with silk-screened posters, which isn't as thick an ink as for fabrics but is still pretty thick. This ink just isn't very thick at all.

But it does appear to be an additive process with the light pink as a background to everything and then the dark pink followed by the green and then the red. So, that would indicate silk-screening or even letter press. I don't know Rotogravure that well. But it could be that too.

Roto was used for "art paper" so perhaps that might be possible.

PS. I've based my initial opinion about it being offset printed entirely on the fact that the ink isn't thick enough for screen printing. Other than that it bears all the evidence that it was screen printed.

[varakeef]

Here's my take on the subject... on different lights, first indoors then outdoors.




There's a golden gift wrap paper at the bottom glued on to the body. Then there's clear coats. After that there's a printed paisley patterns on clear sticker over it. Then some more clear coats.

[Buckocaster51]

I would say that turned out OKAY!

Do you think you have enough levers and gadgets on it?

I take it you like your Hipshot?

Good work and thanks for the update.

[varakeef]

Originally Posted by Buckocaster51

Do you think you have enough levers and gadgets on it? I take it you like your Hipshot?

Thanks! Yeah, it looks like a guitar with dental braces...

Probably the most fun gadget I've ever installed on a guitar. Very addictive, this may only lead into getting a pedal steel eventually.

[mojocasterman]

that came out very well indeed. Congrats!

[JohnnyAtomic]

Originally Posted by varakeef

Here's my take on the subject... on different lights, first indoors then outdoors.




There's a golden gift wrap paper at the bottom glued on to the body. Then there's clear coats. After that there's a printed paisley patterns on clear sticker over it. Then some more clear coats.

AWESOME!!!!