Pink Paisley Paper

[varakeef]

Your right, TerryO.

My wife immediately noticed that the paisleys are closer to each other in the original than in the Fender reissue. It seems to me that Tokai is closer to original in that sense.

So there will be less background anyway.

[TerryOz]

As soon as you notice the criss cross effect and "the sea of silver" you know it isn't an original...The Tokai is very close for sure...I like what Rafael has done so far...The Silver backing will be a critical aspect...I feel he is very close to a good result here, it will be worth the wait...
TerryO

[PeterUK]

Originally Posted by TerryOz

As soon as you notice the criss cross effect and "the sea of silver" you know it isn't an original...The Tokai is very close for sure...I like what Rafael has done so far...The Silver backing will be a critical aspect...I feel he is very close to a good result here, it will be worth the wait...
TerryO

Sadly Rafael has logged on since 17th August so I fear it's the last we've seen of him.

I hope not, because like you, I like what he's doing.

Peter

[TerryOz]

Peter...Oh ye of little faith! It is less than a month then...He'll be round the place again soon I reckon...Might have a result for all to see... Hopefully...
Now breathe in, breathe out...
TerryO

[RedDirt]

Buckocaster sent me his files and I have some of them converted to vectors with a transparent background. Looking for texture files to add in, and then the right paper to print on.

Jumped ahead and did a logo:

[PeterUK]

Originally Posted by TerryOz

Peter...Oh ye of little faith! It is less than a month then...He'll be round the place again soon I reckon...Might have a result for all to see... Hopefully...
Now breathe in, breathe out...
TerryO

OK. OK. Deep breathes...

Peter

[Buckocaster51]

Originally Posted by RedDirt

Buckocaster sent me his files...

Well, that cat is out of the bag.



re Rafael, I think the guy is real busy with some other aspects of his life.

[Buckocaster51]

Originally Posted by varakeef

Your right, TerryO.

My wife immediately noticed that the paisleys are closer to each other in the original than in the Fender reissue....

Not sure that the paislyes are "closer" to each other, or if there is just more "stuff" filling up the space.

[TerryOz]

That's it more "stuff" filling up the spaces...Perfectly put! OK Bucko, come clean...Where is thing at mate?
TerryO

[PeterUK]

Originally Posted by TerryOz

That's it more "stuff" filling up the spaces...Perfectly put! OK Bucko, come clean...Where is thing at mate?
TerryO

C'mon Bucko, give us an update!

Peter

[Buckocaster51]

No update, but since absolutely everything I need to finish that project is within 2 feet of me as I speak, I should try to get motivated and do just that.

Maybe I can use that as justification to buy that new 24" iMac?

[rafael.braga]

Originally Posted by TerryOz

Peter...Oh ye of little faith! It is less than a month then...He'll be round the place again soon I reckon...Might have a result for all to see... Hopefully...
Now breathe in, breathe out...
TerryO

You're right Terry!!!! I'll NEVER let you down!

First of all, let me excuse me for this LONG time without posting . I'm very busy with many things at work. My vacation was programed to August, but as I could not go on vacation because my job is taking almost all my time, I could not have much progress within the PPP (Pink Paisley Paper). So, Im' very sorry for that.
Well... At least I could send my first prototype to my luthier... I need to test how the paper will react with the paint and the varnish. He promissed me that my guitar will be ready the next saturday, so cross your fingers!

Since I have not much to tell you right now, I'll post the last pictures I took from my guitar before sending it to my luthier.

God bless you all folks!

[TDPRI]

I looks good. Make sure he uses a Nitro Lacquer that yellows quickly with age. Or some sort of lacquer that is tinted golden yellow.

The only "problem" I see, is that the embossed weave pattern is in the design as well as the space between the design. It seems that in a real Paisley the two are separate and the paisley pattern is not embossed as yours seem to be.

I guess you printed the pattern on an embossed piece of paper. Rather than printing it on clear plastic and then overlaid that on top of the embossed silver paper.

[JohnnyAtomic]

Originally Posted by rafael.braga

You're right Terry!!!! I'll NEVER let you down!

First of all, let me excuse me for this LONG time without posting . I'm very busy with many things at work. My vacation was programed to August, but as I could not go on vacation because my job is taking almost all my time, I could not have much progress within the PPP (Pink Paisley Paper). So, Im' very sorry for that.
Well... At least I could send my first prototype to my luthier... I need to test how the paper will react with the paint and the varnish. He promissed me that my guitar will be ready the next saturday, so cross your fingers!

Since I have not much to tell you right now, I'll post the last pictures I took from my guitar before sending it to my luthier.

God bless you all folks!

wow that looks great, and i love the white pickguard w/ the paisley.

[rafael.braga]

Originally Posted by TDPRI

I looks good. Make sure he uses a Nitro Lacquer that yellows quickly with age. Or some sort of lacquer that is tinted golden yellow.

The only "problem" I see, is that the embossed weave pattern is in the design as well as the space between the design. It seems that in a real Paisley the two are separate and the paisley pattern is not embossed as yours seem to be.

I guess you printed the pattern on an embossed piece of paper. Rather than printing it on clear plastic and then overlaid that on top of the embossed silver paper.

A friend of mine told me that he is pretty sure,that this two pieces looking on the original 68's happens because when you apply the varnish on the paper, it gives you a tridimensional looking... Or something like this... I'm checking it with this first try! If it did not work, I'll think another way of doing that "flying paisleis" looking.

But that is the "spirit" of this forum! Keep giving me your opinions so I can improve my "PPP"

Thank you!
Rafa

[TDPRI]

Keep us informed as to how it turns out. But I think it's fairly well documented that the backing and the design are on two different sheets. That's always been one of the issues that make it hard to overcome.

[Buckocaster51]

That looks very, very good Rafa.

I don't know if I would agree with the assessment that the originals are two part. I just don't see that when I look at them.

However, I will agree that very little of the embossing is apparent through the paisley ink.

On my sample of what I have finally decided is the '84 reissue paper, the ink is most assuredly on the same paper as the embossing. The ink, which I think has been silk-screened, covers up more than a little of the embossing.

Once again, congratulations on a job well done.

[TDPRI]

Well, perhaps I shouldn't say it is so cut and dried -- two sheets. I've seen a sample that has two sheets. But not in my own hands. Just a photo of it.

It could be that the silkscreen fills up the embossed paper's indentions. I can't say for sure.

But in general, the embossing doesn't show in the paisley pattern.

[Buckocaster51]

Dave (the Dave up in LaCrosse) has invited me to come up and give his old paisley a good going over. I don't know if I could see anything with a hand lens and scanner that I can't see with the Mk II Eyeball, but one of these days I need to give it a try.

I have done very little screen printing. What I remember of what I saw in the 60s is that the inks/paints were very thick, slow drying stuff. Solvent based.

That would explain why the embossing dents are "filled up."

I am assuming that Rafa's paper is being printed with some sort of computer driven gizmo. The toner or inkjet ink that is being deposited on the paper will be much, much thinner than any 60s style screen printing ink.

Short of doing it "old school" I am not thinking of any way around it.

One kludge would be to print the paisleys AND the embossed pattern on flat paper. That probably wouldn't look right for a variety of reasons...among them the lack of shadows cast by the embossing.

But maybe we are just spitting hairs.

I am going to be very eager to see Rafa's work up close.

[TerryOz]

Great to see you back here Rafa, you are doing a great job with this...Just to add my 2 cents worth, the Paisley pattern looks terrific, as does the "Weave" pattern on the backing...Of course as TDPRI (Paul?) has said, the weave shouldn't show on the Paisley coloured areas, it should appear to be below and I tend to agree that there was a 2 part procees where the weaved silver backing was covered with a clear coat "film" with the Paisleys being part of that coat...I have two originals currently in my possession now and if I have a really good look at them, it looks as though it was done this way...Of course, I can't say for sure and have no real background in this area, but I can't see how the "Paisleys" don't show the weave pattern otherwise...As for a top coat, there are some that did yellow off and appear to be a Nitro type of finish, but most look to be a clear "white" poly finish that kept the original colour pretty much intact. I guess I haven't added much here that we don't already know, but I have to say that Rafa is on track with what he has done so far and I congratulate him on his work...It looks great!
Terry

[PeterUK]

...Peter likes this!

Great work Rafael and GREAT thread.

Peter

[TerryOz]

I took some pics of the two 1968 Paisleys I have...I am trying to show some of the differences in the "weave" when you look at it closely...You can see some of the weave pattern below the colour in the paisley pattern, but it appears buried below the coloured areas...I used the Macro setting to get in close...I think these pics are a pretty good representation....A couple of shots that show some worn through edges...IF there are two levels, a Silver weaved pattern base, with a Paisley on clear overlay, as I suspect, they are placed together prior to adhering this "sandwich" onto the body as there is one clean edge as you can probably see in the pic, at least that is what I am trying to show...
I look forward to your thoughts...More pics to come!

[TerryOz]

This of course is an intact Pink edge... As you can see, there is a heavy clear gloss coat over the "paper" which encases the body and gives a flat base for the Pink"Burst" edge

[rafael.braga]

Hey guys!

Well... I'm pretty sure that i have not used the right printing process yet! For this first sample, I have used a digital printer with solvent based ink. I have found a guy that does the silk screening process at home! Some kind of "old school" work, as Buco has mentioned. Hope this process gona give us a closer looking, and that the embossing will not show up inside the paisley pattern! But, looking with attention to Terry pictures, You can find on the 3rd one, at the left down corner, you can see the embossing under the light pink. Have you noticed it? It means that maybe it is a "one piece only" !!!! So, what I need to do, is try to add more ink to the paisley printing, to check if the embossing is totally filled with it, not showing up over the design!

Anyway, I'd like to thank you all again for all the kind sugestion and for the support! Lets get "pink paisled", everybody!

Cheers,
Rafa

[TDPRI]

Rafa,

I see that too. Only it could be something else. If they are two pieces it could be that the tops of the embossing pattern has worn into the paisley pattern at that point and etched some of it away.

Or it could be silk screening that fills the embossing.

I'm going to go one more time with a two piece process because I've done silk screening and while the inks are thick and could fill the embossed background, it wouldn't happen uniformly. There would be LOTS of thin areas where the ink wouldn't cover and fill completely and the embossing would show through.

But really, when you look at a lot of these guitars that just hasn't happened at all. The embossing is never in the paisley pattern at all.

[RedDirt]

I think I have to go with Paul on the two sheet concept, but it would have had to come from the factory that way. Several things to note:

1) In the light pink areas, you can see the base "pebble" pattern through.
2) In the dark pink and green areas, you can see a different "canvas" pattern.
3) In the background areas, there is never a visual hint of a clear sheet over the pattern, nor can you see and de-lamination or glue residue.

There is no way you could faithfully reproduce this without heat and pressure to laminate the sheets. I think that even with a vaccum press you would see glue somehow.

(There still has to be a good way to fake it though)

[TerryOz]

Hey Dirt...Good observations, Regards your comment on the glue residue, if it were a perfectly clear glue, it might not show up...
I am trying to get my head around the silk screen aspect, although I have been thinking that it was a two piece process myself...but a laymans imagination might come up with this...The imperfections in the patterns in the close ups might support the screening process, as I understand it to be a layering of colours over the previous layer...So, screen a maroon outline of the paisley pattern straight on a background, screen the pink areas and then the green etc...I guess the process would fill in the dimpled background accordingly, with the areas that had more layers (more ink) showing less of the dimpling...Of course it seems likely with mass production, that getting the layers lined up perfectly is unlikely, creating the offset aspect of the pattern in my closeup that is the one Dirt has commented on...Is this what you think Bucko?
TerryO

[TerryOz]

Actually, looking at that again, it looks as though the first screen would be the Pink, followed by a darker Pink, next the Green, followed by a lighter maroon outline, with the final screen, being the dark maroon...It does give it a dimensional effect and I am starting to lean toward this process now...I guess printing wallpaper and material was done this way...Just thinking outloud, late at night....
TerryO

[RedDirt]

There is no such thing as perfectly clear glue (in application).

Now that I have filtered more of this data through my brain, the layered screen print seems to be the best bet. Light pink went down first over all of the design area, and thus shows the pebble, dark colors went down last, and are showing screen marks.

[TDPRI]

The register between colors could still be that far off even if it were printed on a printing press. Even today with digital trapping and etc the registration between colors isn't perfect. It was less so then.

It makes sense that the two pieces were joined together at the place the paper was manufactured. I'm confident of that.

Even today, if you print the paisley on clear plastic, put spray mount adhesive on the embossed paper and combined the two pieces you wouldn't see any glue or adhesive and the two would stick together. Spray Mount adhesive is available in permanent or temporary formulations.

If I were Rafael, I'd print the paisley on clear plastic and simply do that -- use aerosol adhesive (Spray Mount is a brand available in art supply places) and stick the clear to his embossed paper and he'd be "there."

[Buckocaster51]

Originally Posted by TerryOz

...Is this what you think Bucko?
TerryO

Yup.

Four colors, four steps, four screens.

Light pink, dark pink, green, red.

There might even be a fifth color...a clear that was put on first to try to level the surface...but probably not.

A little scraping with a No. 11 blade on the paper might reveal what is going on.



But I probably wouldn't do it to mine.

I do know that on my piece of '84 paper there is (from the backside to the top) nothing but: paper, foil, pink, pink, green, and red.

Nothing between the ink and the foil, and nothing on top of the ink...and I have done some scrapings on that.

I can't imagine that "they" would have changed the process much between runs.

The embossing pattern probably changed because of availability.

I have know idea why the amount of "stuff" between the paisleys changed. There were probably new screens made, and whoever did it decided to save some time and probably some money.

It might have been done intentionally to prevent confusion between the originals and reissues. Martin intentionally made some minor changes in the pearl inlay between the pre-war D-45s and the reissues that they started to make in '68 for just that reason.

This is fun. Like I have said before, it is only 40 years ago that they were made. There has to be SOMEBODY SOMEWHERE that remembers the details.

Did they all sign non-disclosure agreements?

Does Mr. Fender have a roving band of thugs that will kneecap anybody that talks?

Has Vintage Guitar magazine, or any magazine for that matter, ever applied its journalistic resources into looking into the Pink Paisleys and the Blue Flowers?

When Rafa finds his "old school" screen printer, I'll bet he has a pony-tail!

[rafael.braga]

A friend of mine had a look at the pictures and told me that maybe they have used the rotogravure process to print it. Considering when it was produced (late sixties), he is 90% sure of it! He can't say with 100% sure because we have never seen this paper or guitar in hands. We (brazilian guys) just have saw it in pictures!!!

A quick search on google gave me this: "Other uses for the rotogravure process are in wallpaper and laminates for furniture where quality and consistency are desired"

I'll keep trying diferent wais for printing it... I'll also follow the sugestion, to print it to a transparent sheet, and have it added to the embossed background later!
Since we don't know really wich process was used to produce these paper, we'll never know if what we are doing is right or not! But my goal is to have it as closer as possible to the original, even if the whole process is totally different from what it was at that time!!!

Thank you very much guys! This forum is really amazing!

[Buckocaster51]

I remember seeing that rotogravure process on This Old House when they were touring a wall paper factory. Certainly seems reasonable to me when I think about it.

[rafael.braga]

Originally Posted by Buckocaster51

I remember seeing that rotogravure process on This Old House when they were touring a wall paper factory. Certainly seems reasonable to me when I think about it.

The only problem with the rotogravure process is the pricing for a low production. The cost of a rotogravure roll is very high! And we need four rolls (one for each color). So finding a lower cost solution, with high final quality can be added to my goal!

[varakeef]

The scan of a photocopy I've recieved earlier show that the layers of colours weren't necessarily in perfect aligment.

Or the time has taken it's toll and the colours have moved from their places.

[amped_esquire]

Or you could go real old school and apply wall paper with some nitro pink and clear sprayed on top. I don't know where you could get wallpaper thats pink like that but you might be able to find paisley wallpaper in a different color its fairly common.

[TerryOz]

Interesting, I have been reading about the Rotogravure process, it is essentially an industrial level setup, for big runs and was certainly a big part of the wallpaper manufacturing process...The paper Fender used was obtained from the Borden Chemical Company, from memory in Ohio (they haven't answered my emails)...Back in the day, it seems that this was a very popular and efficient way to do just this type of thing...Seems to me that the huge amount that they could do in a very small time would explain why the registering never improved, Fender probably only ever had the one order filled as the Paisleys were only around for a small time, being unpopular as they were...I must say, I am firmly in the one piece camp now! I have the guitars in front of me right now and it just looks like a piece of wallpaper "entombed" in clear lacquer...Question is, IS it in fact, just Wallpaper?

[varakeef]

Originally Posted by TerryOz

I have the guitars in front of me right now and it just looks like a piece of wallpaper "entombed" in clear lacquer...Question is, IS it in fact, just Wallpaper?

I never had any doubt about it. To me it is just wallpaper, but the question is "how to make one that looks like the real thing..."

[Buckocaster51]

Or maybe "gift wrap."

The piece of '84 paper that I have measures about 16 x 20 inches. Big enough to do a base body, but that is about it.

Was definitely not part of a roll of anything.

I guess that is why I have leaned to some sort of screening process. It would be roughly equivalent to screening poster or T-shirt.

No time now, but I will have to post some photos of it soon.

[TerryOz]

Hey Rafa...Just a quick observation...One of the really important aspects of getting this right is the registering being off...For example the the Green is outside the lines of the maroon outline, but as you can see pretty much all of the colours applied over the light Pink first colour slightly miss the target...I think that when it is "perfect" it loses some of the magic...If this is done using a version of screening, then perhaps this aspect can be copied? You know, if this was done using Rotogravure, they must have done a huge amount and someone, somewhere has some of the original stuff...One day it'll show up.
TerryO