virtuosos or something else

[Dave Yeats]

I have a philosophical question for you guys.

The setup:
I was telling somebody the other day that Jimmie Vaughan is the only guitarist who makes me want to buy a Strat. He said, "Yeah, but we can all play like Jimmie." He was thinking that virtuosos like SRV, Jeff Beck, Gatton, Hendrix, etc, were more exciting. (Even Van Halen, and Satriani, though not playing the kind of music he likes, were worthy of note because of their playing.)

My tastes, however, run more toward the simple, well-played part. (Maybe that's why I like blues, but not jazz.) I like Jimmie Vaughan, Mike Campbell, the Edge, Neil Young, Willie Nelson, etc. While some might call these guys virtuosos, I think they're playing simple stuff with feeling (or in a unique way that makes it interesting to listen to).

I may just not be that good of a guitarist, but I would rather play a sweet Jimmie Vaughan lick perfectly (and in the context of a song) than a super-complicated Van Halen tune (although, I'll admit, EVH is impressive).

So, some thought questions:

What's the difference between a virtuoso and other 'good' players?

What are some of your favorites in both camps?

Which to you prefer and why?

Remember, nobody's right or wrong here, I'm just curious what other guitarists are thinking.

[timgreene]

Eric Johnson is a virtouso, but IMO, kind of a sterile player.

Stevie ray Vaughn, plays simpler licks, but put tons of passion in to his playing.

[Oskar]

I just never gave it much thought, but I think it would depend on the performer, type of music and style, not to mention people's personal taste in all of those. IMHO Segovia is probably a virtuoso, Dave Gilmore is probably not, but then again, could Segovia play Pink Floyd like Gilmore can? I can certainly see where lines can be drawn, but I agree with you Dave that sometimes a very simple sweet line may be the best. I too like Edge a lot, mostly because he's different from other players. I'm sure this will generate a bit of discussion.

[Nick Fanis]

I really prefer MUSICIANS from virtuosos and good players.
A real musician will play exactly what the song calls for without draining the song but also without underplaying.
Some guys can do it with one note others with hundreds.I don't mind as long as it is tastefull and does not insult my ears!
For me guys like Brent Mason,Pete Anderson,The Edge,Andy Summers,Jimmy Nolen,David Gilmour and Joe Strummer are great guitarists/REAL musicians

['ol hank pank]

In his book, FZ said somthing to the effect is that a virtuoso can play ANYTHING.
Any style, and music genre. That to me is a virtuoso. To me hired gun type berklee players mean virtuoso, sight reading, all that stuff.
People like Beck (my fave player) develop and create new and exciting styles.
JV type players (I think of Keef and Joe Perry as well) can convey a feeling and attitude better than most of their peers.
MHO

[Mike Rice]

Like many others, I would guess, I don't try to sort out good guitarists from virtuosos. But I know I'm much like Nick in this area, and that is who's making music with it. Monster technique certainly doesn't mean you're a good guitarist, and sometimes I think it can be an impediment to being a good musician. Haven't we all met people who can play faster than lightning, but the problem is that's all they do.

I think the biggest flaw is in the comment "Yeah, but we can all play like Jimmie". We can probably play most of what EC has done over the years too. So that means we're as good as Clapton? Jeff "Skunk" Baxter had a column years ago in Guitar Player called Eclectic Electric that I used to really enjoy. He once wrote a column about knowing when NOT to play and included a story of being called in on a session, listening to the tracks, not adding a single note, and submitting his bill. The producer paid him and called him back afterward.

Almost every trip to the music store I hear some gonzo teenager ripping up the board with so much distortion that there's no evidence of any pick attack. It's fast, sometimes it's clean, and I can almost never imagine it fitting into the context of a song. Monster, but not musical.

On an old episode of MASH Charles is trying to convince a piano virtuoso not to give up just because he's lost a hand, and sends for pieces of sheet music written for one handed pianists. The pianist initially scoffs but is moved when Charles tells him that he's been playing piano all his life and that "I can play the notes, but I can't make the music".

There are always going to be gray areas, differences of opinions, and just plain subjective tastes. But by and large if you look at the names that we banty about on a regular basis as our heros or influences or whatever, they not only command the instrument, but the song. They make music.

[Geo]

Based on the popular guitar world definition as
seen and heard over the years........

I like a bit of the virtuosos here and there.
Think they were more popular to my ears in years past
than now. I still listen some and admire the talents especially
if their stuff sounds good to me.
I'll be straight up though some of the constant high speed
elaborate stuff (any style) can get old quick, give me ear fatigue
and even get on my nerves sometimes.
Others love it and that's fine. I certainly don't condemn it.

Think my "definition" of virtuoso has changed somewhat also.

With that, yes, the bulk of what I like and listen to tends to be
simplier going for good groove feel, sound and what it does in the
song itself. Airspace (or nuance?) can be as impressive as the
notes or chords in a song or solo.
That really isn't all that easy to always accomplish.

[62_Inca_Esquire]

well...since i play like a "countrified" version of Neil Young, i guess i dont have much room to talk... :)

[timgreene]

Originally Posted by 62_Inca_Esquire

well...since i play like a "countrified" version of Neil Young, i guess i dont have much room to talk... :)

Neil is pretty countryfied already. I remember seeing him at Mickey Gilley's in 1984?

[62_Inca_Esquire]

Originally Posted by timgreene

Neil is pretty countryfied already. I remember seeing him at Mickey Gilley's in 1984?

kinda....but i tend to do a bit more pedal steel type licks...
:) ....

i guess i shoulda said "a Neil Young/Buddy Miller hybrid... :)

i guess that tells you the kind of music "i" like ....


Last time i saw Neil is when i was doing stage hand work and he was out on the Harvest Moon tour, IIRC...the tour where the MG's were his backing band....John Hammond opened up for him. Great show....

ive heard "mixed reviews" about his new tour.

[timgreene]

Neil Young is a moving target musically. I dig almost all his stuff, the Trans, period is my least favorite. I got his autograph in Austin, during his Garage Band Tour.

[62_Inca_Esquire]

i tend to like his older stuff in general...Harvest, Zuma, etc...."everybody knows this is nowhere' has some of my favorite guitar playing EVER on it....nothing fancy...just cool, kinda sloppy hillbilly guitar :)

[Reno Sepulveda]

[quote="62_Inca_Esquire"][quote="timgreene"]

Originally Posted by 62_Inca_Esquire

i guess i shoulda said "a Neil Young/Buddy Miller hybrid... :)

i guess that tells you the kind of music "i" like ....


Last time i saw Neil is when i was doing stage hand work and he was out on the Harvest Moon tour, IIRC...the tour where the MG's were his backing band....John Hammond opened up for him. Great show....

ive heard "mixed reviews" about his new tour.

Put me squarely down in the Neil Young, Buddy Miller, Mike Campbell camp.

That said guys like Bill Frisell and Jim Camilongo are what I would call virtuosos and I love their stuff. They tend to concentrate on tone just as much as harmony and neither one of them seem like they need to show us all how fast they can play.

I loved the Greendale show by the way.

Reno

[Hucklebilly]

This thread makes me think of Buck Owens live at Carnegie Hall, which I was listening to this morning. Don Rich was playing those simple honky tonk licks that we've now all heard a million times, but they were all perfectly timed, in perfect taste, driving the songs forward. His playing is so infectious, it just puts a big goofy grin on my face. I can help but think this is a form of virtuosity.

[nocasterbert]

music to me is somehow like conversation,
some people talk in a high educated or elaborated language but what they say doesn`t seem to make much sense,
sometimes a simple talkin`person can bring in
more wisdom.

[BlueMidnight]

I like guys like Jimmie Vaughan, Buddy Miller, Mike Campbell and Pete Anderson also. What separates them for me, is they always seem to be playing for the SONG, instead of showing off, playing "Look what I can do!!" licks. I play along with Jimmie a bit, and it's not that easy. He's the master of subtlety, nuance and saying alot without talking too much.

[TeleMark]

In 2001 I went to the G3 tour with Vai, Satch, and Petrucci. I would classify all of the above (along with their bandmates) as virtuosi. Incredible technical ability, and (IMO), the ability to play what needs to be played. I know that all of the above (mostly Vai) get lumped into the "too many notes" camp, but he can play some very moving stuff, without ostentatious shredding.

This year's G3 included the first 2 listed above, along with Yngvie Malmstein. I've heard pretty poor reviews of his part of the show, along with the final jam, mainly because YM seems to get wrapped up in playing scales and shredding because he can. I'm sure he's a virtuoso, but I still don't own any of his records.

Others I'd classify in the Virtuoso camp:

Joe Pass (hey, he released albums titled this!)
Steve Morse
Leo Kotke
Paco de Lucia
John McGlaughlin (sure that's spelled wrong)
Pat Metheny

There's certainly more, but those jump to mind. Folks with incredible technical ability, but a sense of musical modesty, for lack of a better term.

Again, just my $0.02.

TeleMark

[Klaus Kemmerling]

Hello,
there are guitarists, that "impress" me because of their virtuosity (Steve Vai, Satriani, Steve Morse)- They play things/runs/scales and I cannot understand how they play these things. However - in most cases their music does not touch my heart in any way.

And there are players, that play fills/solos in a song and it touches me - not necessarily difficult/virtuoso things - just the right notes at the right place (E. Clapton, Larry Carlton, Jeff Beck, Popa Chubby). That's what i like better.

A player who combined virtuosity AND emotion / expression is Roy Buchanan. IMO he uses his virtuosity to transport emotions. That's what I like best. (Jeff Beck does this too in some cases).

Klaus

[dave_esmond]

i always say i'm more impressed by someone who play's something i wouldn't play rather then something i couldn't.....heck i don't think i've heard many players who can't play somethign i can't, that's not hard to do....but it's not often i hear someone play something really unusual.....i'd rather hear jim campilongo or bill frisell play their own unique version of a song, rather then someone who can play a million notes or knows just the right blues lick.....but that's just what my ears like....

d

[spyder]

Ho...to me virtuoso is more of a classical player/ singer term....I guess it means someone who has mastered their instrument or voice...and has distinguished themselves as such from other players in their class...I reckon I regard guitar pickers as stylists...true, some are really talented styliists...but to be a virtuoso I think a player pretty much has to earn the title from a panel of judges while competeing against other virtuoso hopefuls....as I understand it, the judging folks can be pretty rough on a player or singer....in some cases reducing otherwise world class players to darn near raw meat...I guess a true virtuoso has to be master of the instrument....and themselves.....later, spyder

[Skully]

I dig almost all his stuff, the Trans, period is my least favorite.

I like Neil Young's "Trans." I think I paid $25 bucks for a Japanese import CD to replace my vinyl about 10 years back. I also have the DVD of the tour, "Berlin," which is not so great. I also enjoy the single "Wonderin'" from the '50s retro album "Everybody's Rocking," which came out immediately before or after "Trans." Then came the country album ("Old Ways")... It's no wonder Geffen sued him.

Some Neil I love -- mainly "Rust Never Sleeps" and "Freedom" -- but he just puts out way too much music that's just so-so. In other words, he needs a good editor.

[UncleJarmo]

Spyder more or less alluded to my view.
Gil Shaham is a virtuoso, Yehudi Menuhin was a virtuoso. We're all folk musicians, including the famous ones. Some are damn good at it, but it isn't the same. I don't say this to diminish all the other forms of music at all. Every form of music has it's merits and strong points. There's a reason so many people like country and blues and rock, it reaches people and touchs them.

For almost ten years I've been listening to classical music almost to the exception of anything else. I never used to want to admit it but it's whole different thing. I still like to get on stage and play my ass off with my electric guitar but there's a whole different level of things going on in the compostions by the classical masters. Not necessarily better, but it's another level of demands that are required. I don't listen to it for the virtuosity as much as the depth of complexity and a different range of emotional stimulation.
That's not to say every piece of classical music is a masterpiece, however. Some of it grabs you, some doesn't.
Entirely my subjective opinion. YMMV, etc..

BTW, Jim Vaughan and Dickie Betts are still some of my favorites.

[JoeyV]

Virtuoso= Has own band, musical vision and features themselves as the main character of tonal bliss. Usually fired from a band so they start there own ; )

Good Players = solid, versatile,team orientated,good sidemen and a simple communicator when called for.

Exceptional guitar player = boundless creativity,big ears,lover of all things musical, feel , tone, enthusiasm for guitars and music, easy to get along with and musical common sense.

Ego-Centric-Ttuoso-Exceptionitis = Plays great, looks great,has cool gear, the best tones, the fastest and coolest licks but is a complete A-Hole to people , unless you have something he wants.

Also See:
Jass-Hole = Went to guitar college, graduated and has never done a gig however has strong opinions about everything, hates all things, all musicians, all guitarist,all people,deoderant and still holds grudge against Wes Montgomery calling him a sell out. Lives in his parents basement and still has cowboy sheets and pillow case (he is 35 years old with a strange facial hair growth giving him a demonic billy goat kind of look and enjoys wearing old grey sweaters and maroon corduroy trousers with his earth shoes he got in college)

My thoughts are that every guitar player is a good guitar player Nokie Edwards is as hip as Eddie Van Halen..and he is as good as Brad Paisley and he is as good as the guy in the background making the singer sound great or that record really groove...its all relative
Only thing in my book that = bad guitar player is out of tune, out of touch, volume rudeness and self promoting bragging how great they are and why this guy stinks...If you can play 2 chords and play them the best you can and with a good attitude, your my favorite guitar player....If you can play a zillion chord voicings and solo till the cows come home and have a beautiful sound but and ugly soul and crappy big shot attitude to me your a crappy guitar player.

[UncleJarmo]

JoeyV,

Excellent post.

[0le FUZZY]

<li>An experimenter or investigator especially in the arts and sciences : SAVANT(a person of learning; especially : one with detailed knowledge in some specialized field (as of science or literature)
<li> One skilled in or having a taste for the fine arts
<li> One who excels in the technique of an art; especially : a highly skilled musical performer (as on the violin)
<li> A person who has great skill at some endeavor (a computer virtuoso) (a virtuoso at public relations)

<li>Sew lemme cee now, ah, well, MMMMMM most of us here fall in tew one of these difinitions.
<li>We gonna haff ta change the page name tew the TDVPRI.

[Zorba]

Originally Posted by 0le FUZZY

(as on the violin)

I agree, anyone who plays that ding dang fiddle deserves to be called a virtuoso.

[InSlide]

I was reading Fuzzy's post with ease and no strained brain level of comprehension and thought I was in the twight zone and then I read to the part where Fuzzy's own words came in and realized he must have copied and pasted the understandable stuff. Fuzzy is a Virtuoso of the written word!

[Jim L]

I discovered that I'm much more happy if I can play something that I enjoy, and at the same time an audience can too.

The Jimmie Vaughan stuff, especially the first few t-birds records, is some of the best blues guitar I've ever heard, because it's always perfect in the context of the tune.

When I was in my teens I was an Eddie VH freak... but then I heard SRV, which introduced me to more blues based rock... which lead to Hendrix, and then T-bone, Freddie King, Albert Collins, etc. I've found that the more I listen to blues, the happier I am to hear a cool, appropriate solo with some taste compared to some blistering, I can play faster than you type of thing...

We had a gig in Vermont Sat night at a ski bar... I had so much fun because the energy was great. The audience was fun. I was happy playing rhythm guitar that was helping the groove and seeing the crowd boogie. My solos were accents. The highlight for me was right before going into The Thrill is Gone, calling to the band to follow my lead, and I changed the entire feel and tempo for the song... to keep people dancing. And it worked! It wass almost a Santana "Eyesight for the Blind" kinda feel (we had a percussionist on congas, which didn't hurt!).

There are a million guitarists out there who can play better, faster, more complicated stuff than I can... but I'd rather play for the groove... and play something tasty that fits...

and if that leads to girls dancing on the bar... all the better! (see my earlier post)

[Kingpin]

Most people on this board have probably experienced those rare moments in a band or jam situation when suddenly everything just clicks. It takes a combination of the right people, together at the right time, playing the right song. It seems to only happen when everyone is laying back and playing within their comfort zone. Suddenly the singer sounds better, the groove is locked, the solos flow naturally, it feels like you're not even playing. It's times like those that keep me coming back for more because it's Music, and even if there is no virtuosity involved it's still a thrilling experience.

I love virtuoso players and strive to learn what I can from them but the buzz I get from Music is chasing those elusive moments with the help of my friends.

[Adam Waldron]

Kingpin, your thoughts on this nail it!

Yes!

Cheers,

Adam

[GopherTele]

A thought...

Is a lot of this "I may not have the best technique but I have feel" stuff perhaps just a rationalization for bad guitar playing?

I guess you gotta make peace with yourself if you know you aint all that on the instrument and this is one way to save yourself face.

I'm an okay player and have good "feel" but I still wish I was much better and will try to get there.

I'm hearing an almost superior attitude by average players to the great players: "Well, yeah, you might be able to do x and y and z, but I play with feel, man."

Nonsense.

[hippietim]

[*]He is clearly a technical maestro.[*]He's got chops to spare[*]He has played the most painfully emotion-filled guitar I have ever heard - that guy connects with the guitar in ways I've never seen anyone else do[*]He is a great sideman (Zappa, Roth, Whitesnake, Alcatrazz, PIL, and more)[*]He has the school learned discipline - composition, transcribing, theory, etc.[*]He can be a style chameleon - bebop jazz, heavy metal, blues, classical, big band, rock, Zappa, etc. - the only thing I've never heard him really do is country[*]He has innovated on the guitar in many ways - techniques, sounds, effect use/abuse[*]He is simply an amazing musician[*]He's a truly nice person

There are many other wonderful players out there that I truly love to listen to but none have ever had the impact on my desire to play the guitar and listen to music that Steve Vai has.

[hippietim]

Originally Posted by GopherTele

A thought...

Is a lot of this "I may not have the best technique but I have feel" stuff perhaps just a rationalization for bad guitar playing?

I guess you gotta make peace with yourself if you know you aint all that on the instrument and this is one way to save yourself face.

I'm an okay player and have good "feel" but I still wish I was much better and will try to get there.

I'm hearing an almost superior attitude by average players to the great players: "Well, yeah, you might be able to do x and y and z, but I play with feel, man."

Nonsense.

Slippery slope here. There is no question that a lot of the folks that say those sorts of things are making excuses.

Buuuuut...then I listen to Keith Richards, Angus Young, Robin Trower, Jimmy Page, and so many others. Those guys don't have mind blowing how-the-heck-did-he-do-that chops. However, they have enough chops combined with an amazing musical sense and are able to make wonderful music.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that these guys are trivial to play or anything - it's just that the stuff they do is stuff that is clearly atainable with a reasonable amount of practice for a large number of players.

On the other hand, what Gatton, Malmsteen, Redd, DiMeola, etc. do is so far out of reach for most players like me.

So I don't think it's a total cop out to say you are a feel player as long as you aren't using that as a crutch to not practice, learn scales, various styles, theory, etc.

[Greg_C]

1) neo-classisicists, starting with Ritchie Blackmore through Malmsteem, EVH, vai, etc.
2) country-jazz hipsters, Byrd and Garland, Roy B. would fits in here somewhere, Gatton, Will Ray, Nokie Edwards, etc. I might place Danny Cedrone in this class depending on my mood.
3) trad jazzers, Montgomery, Roberts, etc
4) modern chicken pickers, Jerry Reed begot this strain, lots of our favs in this forum come from this line. Bakersfield runs parallel to this genus.
5) trad blues, Hubert Sumlin, Muddy, John Lee, etc. notable for their extrememly funky timing, some folks don't get it, they're not out of time, its supposed to sound like that.
6) blues-rock-funk, Albert King, Otis Rush, Jimi, SRV, Steve Cropper fits in here because of his Stax and Albert King connnections.
7) garage/grunge players, Steve Stills, Neil Young, Vanilla Fudge and Iron Butterfly, etc. through Cobain and all his progeny.
Each groups has its standout players, some are better recognized for their body of work rather than their raw chops. A lot of these player could cross lines as evidenced by their body of session work, others synthesize lots of other styles as part of their act.
As I've matured (a nice way of saying I've gotten older) I tend to go for more complex styles, I really have a thing for Charlie Christian and Django Rheinhardt these days where when I was younger I really preferred simpler styles, though there are some really simple songs that still get me. I guess my life would be impoverished if I had to do without any of it.
It's funny though if I compare the stuff I hear from say Nickleback or any drop tuning band with say Duane Eddy, Link Wray or Eddie Cochran I think the new stuff comes up short. Partly because recording is so different today, everything having to be radio friendly and all. Some of it is just to make the engineer's job easier, but I think it kills a lot of the emotional content.
If you listen to "thirteen women" by both Bill Haley and Danny Gatton back to back you can really tell how primitive the original was, technically speaking but the emotional content is so much higher (not to say that there's anything wrong with DGs version). I remember as a youngster the ideal of the audiophile was to feel as if they were in the studio as the recording went down. Oh well, there's my rant for the day.
Retro Grouch.

[Tim Bowen]

Another vote for guys & gals that play for the song / composition. I've heard Allan Holdsworth, The Ramones, Don Rich, Jeff Beck, Steve Cropper, Joe Pass, Steve Howe, Jack White, Pat Metheny, Neil Young, Brian Setzer, Johnny Marr, Grant Green, Rick Richards, Ry Cooder, Warren Haynes, Christopher Parkening, Greenwood & O'Brien from Radiohead, Liona Boyd, Robben Ford, Frank Marino, Taj Mahal, Mike Campbell, Davey Johnstone w/ Elton John, all do it, just to mention a few. Different sorts of songs & pieces & vibes, of course. Heard lots of famous folks that didn't play for the song, too. Doesn't really matter that much though, because it's just my opinion & we all hear stuff differently.

[Red Planet]

And dont forget Greg Beasley!

[Joel Terry]

Joey, yours was a superbly written, worded, heartfelt post! If only the rest of the world could see things as clearly as you do on this complex, subjective subject....

Incredible job, my man!

Joel

[Tele295]

What I wouldn't give to play as cool as Steve Cropper!

[PraiseCaster]

......from the little that I have heard, is our own Johny Hiland. you can hear all of his influences blending in his style. I mean, when a shredder like Ingwie Malmsteen cant keep pace with him, Wew!

[stantheman]

BELIEVE ME.....YOU ARE DEAD WRONG.
as wrong as wrong can be. I know Jimmy likes to fly
WAY under the radar and that that's been his "modus operundies" for a couple of decades. But you just DO NOT know. But don't take MY word for it, I mean, who am I....next time you see Duke Robillard ask him if he thinks Jimmy's a primative guitarist
Jimmy was down this path 30 years ago, where hopefully
we will all graduate to with time and experience.