Tele Tonal Differences?

[Rocks]

What are the differences between thinlines, Koa, Ash, Swamp ash, pine, and alder? What would make you choose one over the other?

[Nick JD]

Originally Posted by Rocks

What are the differences between thinlines, Koa, Ash, Swamp ash, pine, and alder? What would make you choose one over the other?

The fact that no one can categorically say which will be brighter, mellower, fuller, muddier, sustain more, or sound like the angels have possessed your fingers - makes me think that there's much more to a guitar's tone than the wood that holds the pickups in place. YMMV

[Rocks]

of course there is more involved in the equation, amp and speakers for example. But I'm more interested in what to expect tonally from the different woods. There are reasons other than looks and weight why people choose different tone woods.

[mellecaster]

Originally Posted by Rocks

of course there is more involved in the equation, amp and speakers for example. But I'm more interested in what to expect tonally from the different woods. There are reasons other than looks and weight why people choose different tone woods.

If you're speaking of Acoustic Guitars that is quite True....Electric....not so much...but I'm sure you will have more enlightened opinions, other than mine....

[Mr_Catch_22]

To toy with wood stereotypes, you've gotta look at things like grain density, the toughness of the wood, overall density, etc, etc, etc...

Generally speaking, heavier woods will give more sustain and have a brighter tone, while lighter woods will have less overall clarity. Some common examples would be Ash, which sustains well and has a bright tone (ie, 'punch'), Swamp Ash, which is a great overall wood, in that it isn't too bright or too dark, and Mahogany, which has a very warm tone to it. Koa also has a pretty warm sound to it. Maple is also a pretty bright sounding wood.

Now here's the kicker...

I can hear a pretty big difference in tone between an acoustic with an ash or maple top, versus one with a koa or mahogany top, as long as the strings are the same, tuning is the same, etc etc. When it comes to electrics, though, I think it gets pretty tricky. I've played on some plywood Strat copies with Texas Specials that sounded identical to an Alder-bodied Strat with Texas Specials, IMO. Sure, I felt some minor differences in tonal responce, but not any more than I have between two different pieces of Ash (my personal favorite wood, by the way).

Personally, I think that although there is a difference in tone between different woods, it's not very much. Most of it is in the mojo factor. I personally love Northern Ash, Swamp ash, and Mahogany. I'll admit that that's probably because of fond memories I have from working with these woods as a kid. Also, if you tell someone that a particular wood sounds a particular way, a lot of people automatically hear what they think they're supposed to hear. That's just my opinion, though.

All this being said, the subtle difference between various tone woods can help your finished project, so long as all your other components fit the tonal scheme.

-duke

[bendecaster]

There are reasons beside looks, and weight that folks use different tone woods, but I can't think of any that make a difference to me!

[Ronkirn]

if you tell someone that a particular wood sounds a particular way, a lot of people automatically hear what they think they're supposed to hear.

Bingo!! I have said about the same thing for years... the mind has a very powerful influence over what you hear, as opposed to what others hear... unless you're doing a Vulcan Mind Meld... The quote is directly applicable to any component that comprises the guitar.

The simple truth is, when a rumor hits the masses, it is picked up as gospel by those unfamiliar with the mechanics of sound as it relates to the complete setup, i.e. guitar, electronics, room acoustics. Of these, the room acoustics has more influence on final sound that any of the gear, with the second being the Amp. The guitar falls somewhere further down the list, but since it’s less technically challenging to change a bridge than it is to change filter capacitors in the amp, or build a new cabinet for the amp’s guts, or re-do a room’s acoustic signature, the guitar parts gets bandied about as being MAJOR areas for “tone” improvement.

I hate to tell ya, but you guys plopping down hefty sums for exotic bridges, pickups, whatever, are more the victim of unsubstantiated rumors than practitioners of valid theory. More times than not, any perceived alteration in the guitar’s voice is simply due to taking the rascal apart and putting it back together. That change can be good (you know what you’re doing) or bad, (you don’t have a clue what you’re doing). Of course, blind luck plays a part too.

Consider…. New strings sound different than old ones. Right? Well how many of ya, change the bridge, or whatever, and put new strings on ‘er? So your “base line” reference is gone . . . as though your subconscious could accurately recall what it sounded like before you attacked an innocent guitar anyway.

The guitar is a musical instrument… it was never intended to generate only one sound. Like a Steinway D can produce Hayden, Mozart, Brahms, or Bach, it can also do Take Five, Brubeck, Whole lotta Shakin’, Jerry Lee, and Last Date, Floyd Cramer. The tone is in the fingers. Let me say that again (this is known as repetition for emphasis in Public Speaking) The . . . tone . . . is . . . in . . . the . . . fingers.

If you cannot control the sound with your playing technique, guess what… you need to get a beer, go sit in a room all by your self and practice till your fingers bleed. Over and over and over….that’s how the ‘Greats” became the greats… Roy Buchanan didn’t buy Nancy and immediately go from a mediocre guitarist to a phenomenal one. To become the player he was, he had to play the guitar a hell of a lot more in private than he ever did in public. George Benson STILL practices 6 hours a day.

When was the last time you paid a hundred bux to go see an unknown guitarist that promoted, not his name, but his gear, a guitar made of Youdon’thavethisonia, with Can’tfindme pickups, and a bridge made of exoticonium, and didn’t have a sound tech, ‘cause his gear had all the tone needed?

So whaddaya wanna be, the guy with the most exotic hardware, or the guy with the talent? One has nothing to do with the other.

Ron Kirn

[Durtdog]

Originally Posted by Ronkirn

Bingo!! I have said about the same thing for years... the mind has a very powerful influence over what you hear, as opposed to what others hear... unless you're doing a Vulcan Mind Meld... The quote is directly applicable to any component that comprises the guitar.

The simple truth is, when a rumor hits the masses, it is picked up as gospel by those unfamiliar with the mechanics of sound as it relates to the complete setup, i.e. guitar, electronics, room acoustics. Of these, the room acoustics has more influence on final sound that any of the gear, with the second being the Amp. The guitar falls somewhere further down the list, but since it’s less technically challenging to change a bridge than it is to change filter capacitors in the amp, or build a new cabinet for the amp’s guts, or re-do a room’s acoustic signature, the guitar parts gets bandied about as being MAJOR areas for “tone” improvement.

I hate to tell ya, but you guys plopping down hefty sums for exotic bridges, pickups, whatever, are more the victim of unsubstantiated rumors than practitioners of valid theory. More times than not, any perceived alteration in the guitar’s voice is simply due to taking the rascal apart and putting it back together. That change can be good (you know what you’re doing) or bad, (you don’t have a clue what you’re doing). Of course, blind luck plays a part too.

Consider…. New strings sound different than old ones. Right? Well how many of ya, change the bridge, or whatever, and put new strings on ‘er? So your “base line” reference is gone . . . as though your subconscious could accurately recall what it sounded like before you attacked an innocent guitar anyway.

The guitar is a musical instrument… it was never intended to generate only one sound. Like a Steinway D can produce Hayden, Mozart, Brahms, or Bach, it can also do Take Five, Brubeck, Whole lotta Shakin’, Jerry Lee, and Last Date, Floyd Cramer. The tone is in the fingers. Let me say that again (this is known as repetition for emphasis in Public Speaking) The . . . tone . . . is . . . in . . . the . . . fingers.

If you cannot control the sound with your playing technique, guess what… you need to get a beer, go sit in a room all by your self and practice till your fingers bleed. Over and over and over….that’s how the ‘Greats” became the greats… Roy Buchanan didn’t buy Nancy and immediately go from a mediocre guitarist to a phenomenal one. To become the player he was, he had to play the guitar a hell of a lot more in private than he ever did in public. George Benson STILL practices 6 hours a day.

When was the last time you paid a hundred bux to go see an unknown guitarist that promoted, not his name, but his gear, a guitar made of Youdon’thavethisonia, with Can’tfindme pickups, and a bridge made of exoticonium, and didn’t have a sound tech, ‘cause his gear had all the tone needed?

So whaddaya wanna be, the guy with the most exotic hardware, or the guy with the talent? One has nothing to do with the other.

Ron Kirn

Nonsense Ron.
I don't need to practice. I can buy "tone" and be the envy of all the other boys.


edited to add: I included your entire post because I thought it needed to be repeated.

[Telemarkman]

Originally Posted by Ronkirn

Bingo!! I have said about the same thing for years... the mind has a very powerful influence over what you hear, as opposed to what others hear... unless you're doing a Vulcan Mind Meld... The quote is directly applicable to any component that comprises the guitar.

The simple truth is, when a rumor hits the masses, it is picked up as gospel by those unfamiliar with the mechanics of sound as it relates to the complete setup, i.e. guitar, electronics, room acoustics. Of these, the room acoustics has more influence on final sound that any of the gear, with the second being the Amp. The guitar falls somewhere further down the list, but since it’s less technically challenging to change a bridge than it is to change filter capacitors in the amp, or build a new cabinet for the amp’s guts, or re-do a room’s acoustic signature, the guitar parts gets bandied about as being MAJOR areas for “tone” improvement.

I hate to tell ya, but you guys plopping down hefty sums for exotic bridges, pickups, whatever, are more the victim of unsubstantiated rumors than practitioners of valid theory. More times than not, any perceived alteration in the guitar’s voice is simply due to taking the rascal apart and putting it back together. That change can be good (you know what you’re doing) or bad, (you don’t have a clue what you’re doing). Of course, blind luck plays a part too.

Consider…. New strings sound different than old ones. Right? Well how many of ya, change the bridge, or whatever, and put new strings on ‘er? So your “base line” reference is gone . . . as though your subconscious could accurately recall what it sounded like before you attacked an innocent guitar anyway.

The guitar is a musical instrument… it was never intended to generate only one sound. Like a Steinway D can produce Hayden, Mozart, Brahms, or Bach, it can also do Take Five, Brubeck, Whole lotta Shakin’, Jerry Lee, and Last Date, Floyd Cramer. The tone is in the fingers. Let me say that again (this is known as repetition for emphasis in Public Speaking) The . . . tone . . . is . . . in . . . the . . . fingers.

If you cannot control the sound with your playing technique, guess what… you need to get a beer, go sit in a room all by your self and practice till your fingers bleed. Over and over and over….that’s how the ‘Greats” became the greats… Roy Buchanan didn’t buy Nancy and immediately go from a mediocre guitarist to a phenomenal one. To become the player he was, he had to play the guitar a hell of a lot more in private than he ever did in public. George Benson STILL practices 6 hours a day.

When was the last time you paid a hundred bux to go see an unknown guitarist that promoted, not his name, but his gear, a guitar made of Youdon’thavethisonia, with Can’tfindme pickups, and a bridge made of exoticonium, and didn’t have a sound tech, ‘cause his gear had all the tone needed?

So whaddaya wanna be, the guy with the most exotic hardware, or the guy with the talent? One has nothing to do with the other.

Ron Kirn

Make that a "sticky"!

[WrapAround]

Originally Posted by Mr_Catch_22

Also, if you tell someone that a particular wood sounds a particular way, a lot of people automatically hear what they think they're supposed to hear.

I have to agree with this, too. This is also the reason I'm never keen on putting guitars together from parts or "investing" in custom guitars "built to my tonal spec".

I've noticed that people also tend to hear "what they are are supposed to hear" from power tubes. ;)

[rootsnblues]

You may want to read over the last major flare up of this topic. It only proved that this is an unresolvable issue in this forum. Warning: There's 9 pages of posts, some not for the faint of heart :-)

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/telecaste...gged-tele.html

[jkingma]

Although I believe every tiny detail of a guitar contributes something to the sound, I also believe that the overall tone and sound of the guitar has more to do with the player than anything else.

David Gilmour sounds like David Gilmour whether he is playing a Strat, a Tele or a Gretsch.

[Rocks]

Originally Posted by jkingma

Although I believe every tiny detail of a guitar contributes something to the sound, I also believe that the overall tone and sound of the guitar has more to do with the player than anything else.

David Gilmour sounds like David Gilmour whether he is playing a Strat, a Tele or a Gretsch.

One reason why he sounds the same with anything he plays is his effects board and effects rack. if you had all his effects you'd sound similar to him as well (assuming you can play like him) Of course a good part of it is his technique, but I've heard him play acoustics and get the same basic tone he gets from a strat.

[jkingma]

Snowy White has toured extensively with Pink Floyd over the years and he can get the "Floyd" sound down pat, but he certainly does not sound like Gilmour. It's in the fingers more than its in the gear.

[TeleJelly]

I have an idea lets all build the cheapest guitar possible and practice on it until we find our signature voice. I know I've been dying to use the tiger striped MDF in the shed ;-)

[boris bubbanov]

Originally Posted by Mr_Catch_22

Also, if you tell someone that a particular wood sounds a particular way, a lot of people automatically hear what they think they're supposed to hear.

+4

I have never seen this thought better stated, right on the money.

I saw a thread somewhere else, a while back where the writer was convinced the rosewood board was making his ash guitar too bright. Great guitar player, and so how is it that he's convinced rosewood is too bright when "conventional wisdom" is that an all maple neck would be brighter?

If you can make beautiful music with an electric guitar, it stands to reason you can hear well enough to distinguish of the subtleties of different guitar tone woods. If you can't hear the difference between two species of wood and yet can play well enough to bring tears to people's eyes, doesn't that suggest that these "differences" are too unpredictable, too unknowable to be readily communicated to some one we've never met?

I think so.

[Ronkirn]

Another thing to consider..... Most guitarists have a "baseline" tone they personally like... given any guitar; they will fiddle with the controls unconsciously until they have approached that baseline. That doesn’t mean the guitars sound exactly alike, but they have been adjusted, pretty much by instinct, to closely resemble each other.

An example I use is, most have at one time or another called a friend, and when they pickup the phone, you begin chatting, assuming it's whom you called, only to determine after a few moments, it's not your friend, but their Son, Brother, Uncle, someone of a close blood relation. They sound very much like your friend but the slight differences become manifest after a few minutes.

It's similar with a guitar, BUT...... you have to be accomplished enough to fully exploit the guitar to realize those subtleties, and have hearing good enough to REALLY hear them.

Also, when a guitarist plays a “cover” your brain fills in the tonal voids to the point you hear what you think you are hearing. How many times have you seen someone play something instantly recognizable like, say, Purple Haze, on a completely wrong guitar with a totally incorrect amp, yet you hear Jimi wailin’ away. Same thing’s true of any immediately recognizable piece of music. You know what’s coming and your gray matter fills in the blanks.

Many, many, years ago, I along with several other friends produced a cartoon strip, almost got syndicated by King Features too. But as we were sending out work to the various syndicates, some of which had an eerie resemblance to other published cartoon strips. Several critics came back with the same encouragement and recommendations. Don’t try to look like another’s art, do your own thing, Garfield, Charlie Brown, Dagwood have all been done. We are looking for originality.

I can extrapolate and pass on the good advice, don’t try to be another act, develop your own style, sound, look, etc… If you are doing a “cover” sure try to duplicate the original, but beyond that… are you you, or are you a copy?

Ron Kirn

[Rocks]

Originally Posted by TeleJelly

I have an idea lets all build the cheapest guitar possible and practice on it until we find our signature voice. I know I've been dying to use the tiger striped MDF in the shed ;-)

Been there, done that. Two of my most played guitars are an old Stella acoustic ($2 at a garage sale) and an early 80's Cort Strat copy that has a plywood body ($50 at GC). Add to that my $20 garage sale dread which is an Indiana Scout (sells new for about $99) That's three guitars for $72, can't get much cheaper than that.

Of course I have other guitars as well and I play almost every one of them daily, 20 minutes here, 45 minutes there, a few hours later. I've got 7 guitars and each one gets a minimum of 20 minutes play time every day. My longest session is late at night and they average about 2-3 hours. Each guitar brings something different out of me, which is why I was asking about different woods and body styles like the thinline. The funny thing is, even though the thinline was what I asked about, everyone jumped right on the wood types as if it was stupid to even ask. I wasn't even asking about a solid body guitar yet everyone misread the question:

What are the differences between thinlines, Koa, Ash, Swamp ash, pine, and alder? What would make you choose one over the other?

Notice the question is "What are the differences between thinlines..."and then I named some different woods that could be used in making a thinline. To tell me there is no difference in woods used on a semi-hollowbody leads me to believe that no one understood what I was asking.

[hockey_head]

i don't believe that the specific wood would make a difference in tone of a semi hollow electric thin body guitar.
solid body though, heck yeah. that is the most fundamental difference between fender and gibson. i dream of making a mahog tele with a mahog neck to really see if i can get the sound of a gibson (buckers included) with the scale and neck shape (comfort) of a fender.

[Rocks]

hockey head,
I was under the impression that wood made a bigger tonal difference in semi-hollow and hollow bodies than it does in solid bodies.

[Telemarkman]

Originally Posted by Ronkirn

Another thing to consider..... Most guitarists have a "baseline" tone they personally like... given any guitar; they will fiddle with the controls unconsciously until they have approached that baseline. That doesn’t mean the guitars sound exactly alike, but they have been adjusted, pretty much by instinct, to closely resemble each other.

My thoughts exactly!

This is of course part of the "It's all in the fingers" theory. If you strum a chord on a Tele, a Strat, a Les Paul or a Gretsch with the same settings on the guitar and amp, they will obviously sound different. Or do we really need just ONE electric, solidbodied guitar?