Av 52'RI Tele - "Vintage" vs "Modern" Switching Circuit...

[Axtklinge]

Hi!

A few weeks ago I've started this post ( http://www.tdpri.com/forum/telecaste...irst-tele.html ) showing my first tele (52'RI butterscotsh Tele), and asking some advice about pickups.

At the time I was quite puzzled with the "pickup/switch circuit", and could only tell that one of the pickups had a very bright and open sound (for me the real "tele" sound I was expecting and hoping for), and the other was "muddy and flat".
As I've been told then, this muddyness was due to the "old days wiring", and that would be quite easy to change (to new wiring), and so I've decided to give it some time to see how it felt a couple of weeks after.


So here I am again searching for more advice and opinions!
By now, I can fairly say that I simply love the sound of the neck pickup.
And thats a fact.
I dont think I'll ever play blues anywhere else.
The bridge pup is ok.
It doesnt deliver the same punch I might like like him to (when I feed him overdrive/distortion), but it's doing his job.
I might think about him again a few weeks from now.

About the "dark circuit" (the 3rd switch position), well, so far I find it to be a bit useless.
I mean, I could look at it as an "extra option" for rock/bluesly stuff (having options is good) just if it wasnt for the incredibly low output he has.
All of the sudden it seems I've turned the volume to less then half, when compared to the other two.

And the questions are...

1- Has any of you "52'ers" felt the same and if so, did any of you actualy changed the "old" to "modern" circuit?

2- How does the added capacitor afects the sound of the neck, and bridge pickups? (Can it be classified as a "good change" in your opinion?)

3- With the modern wiring, the "3rd switch position" changes from "dark circuit sound" to a mix of both neck&bridge pickup right?
How about the sound of this "mix"?


By the way, did I mention I love my tele?

Cheers
Axt

[Telemarkman]

On a stock '52 RI Tele the bridge position is the bridge pickup with a tone control.

The middle position is the neck pickup with a tone control, and the neck position is the neck pickup with the treble rolled off (muddy sound).

I've found the latter unuseful for my playing, so I did the rewiring but without changing the 503z cap (.047uf).

The tone of the guitar is now the same as it was, except that the middle position is both pickups together and the neck position is the neck pickup with a tone control (the same as you have in the middle position).

I can still get the muddy sound if I want to by rolling the tone control all the way back in neck position, so I don't loose anything, but I gain both pickups together. This gives a more acoustic tone, and is especially great for rhythm playing.

[David Barnett]

The dark sound is good with a fuzzbox.

[Cheesehead]

I haven't switched as I play the middle neck position most of the time. You can actually set the switch between the middle and bridge positions if you want to engage both pups...

[Telemarkman]

Originally Posted by Cheesehead

You can actually set the switch between the middle and bridge positions if you want to engage both pups...

Yeah, but you got to be very careful, and it's not a good solution if you're gigging and want to change to both pickups fast ...

[mellecaster]

Originally Posted by Telemarkman

On a stock '52 RI Tele the bridge position is the bridge pickup with a tone control.

The middle position is the neck pickup with a tone control, and the neck position is the neck pickup with the treble rolled off (muddy sound).

I've found the latter unuseful for my playing, so I did the rewiring but without changing the 503z cap (.047uf).

The tone of the guitar is now the same as it was, except that the middle position is both pickups together and the neck position is the neck pickup with a tone control (the same as you have in the middle position).

I can still get the muddy sound if I want to by rolling the tone control all the way back in neck position, so I don't loose anything, but I gain both pickups together. This gives a more acoustic tone, and is especially great for rhythm playing.

Excellent observation and explanation ...this should be put into the Resources Section, because it is so misunderstood by many IMO

[Telemarkman]

Thank you mellecaster, but it's actually my guitardoctor who should get the credit ... Now there's a guy who knows his way around guitar electronics .

[johnnytronics]

Originally Posted by Cheesehead

I haven't switched as I play the middle neck position most of the time. You can actually set the switch between the middle and bridge positions if you want to engage both pups...

That's what I do. I just pluck the G string while moving the selector switch slowly towards the bridge. When both pickups kick in, you can hear it distinctly.
Switch stays put too, at least mine does.

[bradpdx]

The modern wiring will cost you nothing in terms of tone and tone options. The position you are currently favoring (middle switch position = neck PUP only) will still be available, only with the modern wiring it becomes the #3 position.

The old '52 wiring retains the use of the tone control on both the bridge and neck PUPs, just as the modern one does.

I rewired my '52RI the day I got it, it only takes about 10 minutes. As others have mentioned, there is no need to change the cap on the tone control itself (0.047mfd) as that is already the standard value. Likewise the stock pots are just dandy at 250K.

All that happens is:
1. You lose the #3 "muddy" setting
2. You gain the #2 "both pickups on" setting

Ain't nothin' wrong with that. The point is to make it a useful instrument, not a replica museum piece.

As to the bridge PUP - normally that PUP is considerable more powerful than the neck PUP. Check your height adjustments, there is a world of color differences to be found there as well (and for FREE).

[gaddis]

I'm probably one of the few people that seem to like the so-called "deep rhythm" setting of the neck pickup. My '67 Tele came with the old wiring. It was made shortly before they changed over to the modern circuit. I've never even considered changing the wiring since I've always liked this sound, which I use strictly for strumming chords. You can approximate it by rolling down the tone control all the way but it's not quite the same.

[Chrismeyer]

This really helps me explain this at work at CG to people. I've told everybody and anybody that picks up a Tele to come here!
........holy crap...I gotta go......I'm watching a mental meltdown on "Gone Country"......Later

[surfoverb]

Originally Posted by David Barnett

The dark sound is good with a fuzzbox.

+1..or possibly only good with a fuzz...For me, some dig it.

[David Barnett]

Originally Posted by surfoverb

+1..or possibly only good with a fuzz...For me, some dig it.

Well, Stephen Stills' solo in "Wooden Ships" uses the bassy tone setting. Well, it's an Esquire, so it's a bridge pickup with the capacitor, but it's a pretty cool sound and fits the song perfectly.

[Axtklinge]

Thank you all for your input, and thank you Telemarkman (and your guitardoc) for your post!

Originally Posted by Telemarkman

(...) so I did the rewiring but without changing the 503z cap (.047uf).
The tone of the guitar is now the same as it was (...)

Thats a very nice choice right there!
And as you've said, the dark and muddy sound could still be an option with some tone control switching.
Just to make sure, the rewiring is exactly the same that comes with Fender schematics, simply without the capacitor?


Just one last question, what could I expect (soundwise) if the capacitor that comes with the modern wiring was used/installed?


Cheers
Axt

PS: Is this a job that can be done by an "handy man" (as in "me") or should I go to a guitardoc?
Note: As far as electronics go, my biggest acheivement was to disassemble the first guitar I owned (to change his finish), and then assemble it all again a few weeks later (following my pre-disassemble electronic schematics), and it came out playing as it played before.
Will that do or should I go on the safe side?

[Telemarkman]

Originally Posted by Axtklinge

Just to make sure, the rewiring is exactly the same that comes with Fender schematics, simply without the capacitor?

Correct!

Originally Posted by Axtklinge

Just one last question, what could I expect (soundwise) if the capacitor that comes with the modern wiring was used/installed?

The .022uf cap makes the tone brighter than the .047uf cap, but only when you roll off treble. If you always play with the tone controll full on, you'll notice no difference.

Originally Posted by Axtklinge

PS: Is this a job that can be done by an "handy man" (as in "me") or should I go to a guitardoc?
Note: As far as electronics go, my biggest acheivement was to disassemble the first guitar I owned (to change his finish), and then assemble it all again a few weeks later (following my pre-disassemble electronic schematics), and it came out playing as it played before.
Will that do or should I go on the safe side?

Sounds like you should be able to fix it yourself - me, I'm not even a "handy man" when it comes to electronics ... I do a very decent setup, though .

[pbenn]

Originally Posted by David Barnett

Well, Stephen Stills' solo in "Wooden Ships" uses the bassy tone setting. Well, it's an Esquire, so it's a bridge pickup with the capacitor, but it's a pretty cool sound and fits the song perfectly.

Take yourself back to the mid-Fifties... You're in a music store, faced with the choice between a Tele and an Esquire. You play through both in turn--they are completely different animals... the Esquire has a totally different capped sound, and a primitive tone preset, the Tele a broader acoustic range, a different bass sound.

Sometimes I get nostalgic for the deep past....

[David Barnett]

Originally Posted by pbenn

Take yourself back to the mid-Fifties... You're in a music store, faced with the choice between a Tele and an Esquire. You play through both in turn--they are completely different animals... the Esquire has a totally different capped sound, and a primitive tone preset, the Tele a broader acoustic range, a different bass sound.

Sometimes I get nostalgic for the deep past....

Easy solution -- I buy both.

[Axtklinge]

I thought you might like to know how this thread ended, so here it goes:

I've decided to go for the modern wiring circuit.
While the schematics (diagrams) are quite easy to follow, the original Fender solder was an absolute pain to remove (in order to remove wires and caps).
I had to put my usual "hobby/homework" 35W iron aside, and go to a friends house to use his 80W.
Even so we had trouble as it simply wouldnt melt, but fortunatly we were patient enough and the solder end up melting.
At least puting things back in place was quite easy (as we used our own solder).

The job's done!
Everything is working, and I have a new mixed sound (both pups) in the midle position of my 3-way-switch.
And it is sweeeeeeeeeet!

By the way, I ended up changing the caps too, and as far as I can tell, each pup sounds the same it sounded before.

As Telemarkman said:

Originally Posted by Telemarkman

I can still get the muddy sound if I want to by rolling the tone control all the way back in neck position, so I don't loose anything, but I gain both pickups together. This gives a more acoustic tone, and is especially great for rhythm playing.

Cheers to you all
Axt

[Telemarkman]

Originally Posted by Axtklinge

The job's done!
Everything is working, and I have a new mixed sound (both pups) in the midle position of my 3-way-switch.
And it is sweeeeeeeeeet!

Congrats on a wise choice (meaning you did the same thing I did ).

Originally Posted by Axtklinge

By the way, I ended up changing the caps too, and as far as I can tell, each pup sounds the same it sounded before.

They sound the same until you start rolling off treble. Then yours will sound somewhat brighter than mine. Just a matter of taste though ... nothing wrong about either way .

[nosuch]

I had the wiring changed in mine right in the shop. I play a lot with both pickups on and the muddy sound can be achieved by rolling down the tone anyway - which imo is a better solution because you can set as much mud as you like ...
;-)

[Gav2000]

Where can I find a wiring diagram to see how to make this change? I have a 60th Anniversary Tele and never use the 3rd position as it's so dull so I'm interesting in making this change.

Cheers,

Gavin.

[nosuch]

this may work: http://www.tdpri.com/wiring3way.htm