compensated saddles, how accurate?

[Soundhound]

I'm zeroing in on the Tele I want, and am thinking about compensated saddles as a way to get great tele tone, while satisfying my manaical need for great intonation.

My question is, can the angle of the compensated saddles be adjusted, or are they set? If they are set, is this still a bit of a compromise, keeping you from setting intonation as best as you could, or does it work just as well as a six saddle bridge?

thanks!

[bad porcupine]

Originally Posted by Soundhound

I'm zeroing in on the Tele I want, and am thinking about compensated saddles as a way to get great tele tone, while satisfying my manaical need for great intonation.

My question is, can the angle of the compensated saddles be adjusted, or are they set? If they are set, is this still a bit of a compromise, keeping you from setting intonation as best as you could, or does it work just as well as a six saddle bridge?

thanks!

I am far from an expert, so I'll defer to others on this, but I'll tell you my experience with my Baja Tele.

The stock brass saddles intonated a lot better than I thought they would when I bought it, but of course, not perfectly. I ordered some Glendale saddles, on which the E/A saddle is aluminum and the others brass, and the E/A saddle is designed for heavier gauge strings (I forget what they call this set--"wide intone" or something).

Got them installed, and the intonation is noticeably better, but still not exactly perfect. One thing that is a big improvement is that the strings don't touch the height adjustment screws, like they did on the stock saddles. That's definitely worth something.

The Glendale saddles are not adjustable as far as the angle goes, unless you bend the screws, but then why would you bother getting compensated saddles? I think there are other brands of saddles which have an adjustment screw, so that you can change the angle, but I have no experience with them.

So, in my experience, the compensated saddles are an improvement, though whether it's worth $50 is a judgment call, and depends on you and your playing style.

That's my $0.02!

[VWAmTele]

The Glendale saddles on my Baja intonate perfectly (according to my tuner). Highly recommended.

[woodman]

among compensated 3-saddles, the shelved ones have always intonated much more nearly perfect than the angled ones (in my experience).

[Joe-Bob]

On my tele, they helped alot, but if you need perfect intonation, a tele might not be for you.

[bluesjuke]

Originally Posted by woodman

among compensated 3-saddles, the shelved ones have always intonated much more nearly perfect than the angled ones (in my experience).

RS makes some really nice looking "shelved" saddles.
When aged they look even better.

[mellecaster]

When I was young, we would melt down our Brass straight saddles...use em for fillins in our teeth....make new ones outta Rocks....and WE LOVED IT !.....

[Dacious]

Originally Posted by Soundhound

I'm zeroing in on the Tele I want, and am thinking about compensated saddles as a way to get great tele tone, while satisfying my manaical need for great intonation.

thanks!

Then you are playing the wrong instrument. Slanted saddles might be fixed in a just-as-out posi as straight. Just bolting on something won't fix any underlying reasons for bad intonation like bad frets, poorly-cut nut, bad action.

Any fretted guitar, including a six barrel, or even one of the fancy Buzz Feiten (sp?) nuts, will never have precise intonation. A guitar is a tempered instrument: the parallel fret spacings mean if you chase the same note up and down the board it will be 'out' somewhere on the most intonated guitar you can find. It's one of those things that if you obsess over will drive you nuts. How have classical guitars and the master exponents like Sergovia coped for centuries with their 'one barrel' straight, not even slanted bridges?

If you are apprehensive about it, better just buy a six barrel bridge to start with. Do a seach on intonation - you'll find reams of conflicting advice. There's a common perception slanted barrels will automatically 'cure' bad intonation - but then there was once a common perception the earth was flat!

Just as an aside - do you know the best piano tuners tune acoustic pianos so the high keys are slightly flat and the lows slightly sharp? It is because your ears perceive them to be 'out' otherwise. The fact that notes are sharp in some places and flat in others is what makes us find guitars pleasantly aurally 'furry' sounding. It's when they're all consistently flat or sharp that there is an issue.

I do setups for people who complain of bad intonation and tuning instability. Teles, Les Pauls, Strats, jazzers, acoustics. I haven't had to change saddles on any of them unless there's a physical fault. Almost always, there is an underlying cause like plain bad setup, worn frets, a warped neck or similar. Some of these guys have played for decades on badly setup guitars and are great players but never twigged why they struggle to play them. It's a revelation when the thing almost plays itself. I wonder how many people traded or sold 'dud' guitars that were one setup away from keepers?

Any new guitar needs setting up to suit you - the makers don't do it on the line past a basic level because they don't know how the guitar will be after the neck wood settles, transit storage in different environments and hanging in a shop window in the sun before you buy it.

Or what strings you prefer or how you will play - heavy or light, slide, fingerstyle, jazzy passing chords.

[Al Watsky]

Dacious hit all the points, I guess I might add that the angled saddles are just about right, but I notice that when I self adjust by bending the screws of a 3 barrel bridge the angle is always more acute than the store bought set. Without getting all didactic. It would seem that the angle the manufacturer is setting is the individual makers take on the "correct" angle ,based on their research. I have noticed that various manufacturers have slightly different angles , but the general angle tendency is similar, as one would expect.
One idea I would like to advance is this :
I have yet read a post on this board that addressed the business of how one actually goes about depressing the string while intonating, that would, in the writers estimation give an objective reading on their tuner. A method that takes the players playing style and skill level into account.
I have the impression that a lot of the nervousness about intonation on the board has to do with the inability of folks to know exactly what the differences are between their actual playing style and their methods of intonating their bridges. Or the inability of their service persons.
The fact that a guitar is tempered doesn't mean its out of tune it means that its tempered, a very large topic.
I can play perfectly in tune triads with the commercially available angled saddle sets ; because I can control the finger pressure I use when I play chords , not because I have set the saddles "perfectly". I've been using the same model and brand of strobe tuner for 33 years. I can tell you exactly to the cent what the variables are , but I'm tellin' you, it don't matter. if the guitar is set up to within 2 cents of in tune at the 12th fret with the same pressure from string to string, "if" the player has control and a "musical" ear, they will play the guitar in tune. Period. The angled saddles are a real improvement.
The only time I've ever had anyone tell me they couldn't play a guitar in tune it was either , just wildly, wrongly adjusted, or they could not play. Inexperienced players can barely tune their guitars to the open pitches without electronic tuners, much less actually play the guitar in tune. Thats why you need to practice, to gain the skill and control to make music , which includes playing chords in tune. Scales are a different matter , it seems to require less skill to play a scale fragment in tune than a chord. Mainly because using 1 finger at a time note to note is simply less complicated a matter to hear , (depending on the scale ,interval or note "cell"), and that the ear is more forgiving regarding line than harmony.

[Buckocaster51]

A few years ago I started using Glendale Wide-Intone Twang saddles on most everything I play. I use the Wide-Intone sets because I use 10-52 strings.

I tell you, since then I have NEVER been disappointed in the way my guitars intone.

Those saddles allow me to play things that I would have NEVER considered playing on a Telecaster.

They just flat out work.

If you know what I mean!

[woodman]

Originally Posted by bluesjuke

RS makes some really nice looking "shelved" saddles.
When aged they look even better.
]

one additional thing i like about them is that the ends of the barrels butt up against each other to provide continuous mass ... i think that helps with sustain, and to a lesser degree, tone (whatever "tone" is!).

[Telemarkman]

Originally Posted by Dacious

Then you are playing the wrong instrument. Slanted saddles might be fixed in a just-as-out posi as straight. Just bolting on something won't fix any underlying reasons for bad intonation like bad frets, poorly-cut nut, bad action.

Any fretted guitar, including a six barrel, or even one of the fancy Buzz Feiten (sp?) nuts, will never have precise intonation. A guitar is a tempered instrument: the parallel fret spacings mean if you chase the same note up and down the board it will be 'out' somewhere on the most intonated guitar you can find. It's one of those things that if you obsess over will drive you nuts. How have classical guitars and the master exponents like Sergovia coped for centuries with their 'one barrel' straight, not even slanted bridges?

If you are apprehensive about it, better just buy a six barrel bridge to start with. Do a seach on intonation - you'll find reams of conflicting advice. There's a common perception slanted barrels will automatically 'cure' bad intonation - but then there was once a common perception the earth was flat!

Just as an aside - do you know the best piano tuners tune acoustic pianos so the high keys are slightly flat and the lows slightly sharp? It is because your ears perceive them to be 'out' otherwise. The fact that notes are sharp in some places and flat in others is what makes us find guitars pleasantly aurally 'furry' sounding. It's when they're all consistently flat or sharp that there is an issue.

I do setups for people who complain of bad intonation and tuning instability. Teles, Les Pauls, Strats, jazzers, acoustics. I haven't had to change saddles on any of them unless there's a physical fault. Almost always, there is an underlying cause like plain bad setup, worn frets, a warped neck or similar. Some of these guys have played for decades on badly setup guitars and are great players but never twigged why they struggle to play them. It's a revelation when the thing almost plays itself. I wonder how many people traded or sold 'dud' guitars that were one setup away from keepers?

Any new guitar needs setting up to suit you - the makers don't do it on the line past a basic level because they don't know how the guitar will be after the neck wood settles, transit storage in different environments and hanging in a shop window in the sun before you buy it.

Or what strings you prefer or how you will play - heavy or light, slide, fingerstyle, jazzy passing chords.

Dacious, your post ought to be kept as a "sticky"!

The problem isn't the saddles. Learn to do a good set-up and there ain't no problem ...

[didato]

Has anyone tried the Gotoh/Wilkinson compensated saddles?

[Al Watsky]

I've avoided the gotoh wilkinson because of the "extra" parts needed to get the saddle to angle adjust, but I bet they intonate just fine ! I like less parts , less parts sounds better to me. which is my bias and preference for a 3 saddle tele bridge in a nut shell.
fewer parts = better sound.

[Tele5128]

Originally Posted by Dacious

.... How have classical guitars and the master exponents like Sergovia coped for centuries with their 'one barrel' straight, not even slanted bridges?

Having studied (and struggled with ... :)) formal Classical Guitar studies for 6 years, my observation is that the best Classical Guitarist play in tune. They do so by fretting very clean and close to the fret and literally applying the necessary differences in pressure to get each note (even when playing 4-voice chords) to sound in-tune.

Classical music by its very nature is fright with secondary-dominate harmony such that within a single piece (or even movement/sub-section) they key-center "wanders". When you add this repertoire challenge to the already mentioned fact that Classical Guitars (even the ones that cost $20,000+) don't have adjustable bridges, then it's up to the player to get the instrument tuned and "tempered" as close as he/she can.

After that it's a matter of playing the music in-tune ... and that's one fundamental thing what separates the novice from the true artist.

I believe that the same sort of thing applies to electric guitar playing. Some folks can just "play in tune" because they are either superbly gifted and/or they have worked tireless to train their ears and fingers to do so.

Just my 2 cents.

[Al Watsky]

having been in the business of repairing and playing classical and flamenco guitars for decades I can state that the nylon' formerly gut or now composite strings used are "much" more sensitive to finger pressure. apart from pressure, finger angle is also important that and the number of fingers down on the string if your playing lines.
If your wondering why classical guitars don't in most cases have compensated saddles there are several answers to that. The first is tradition, the second is the gram weight of the thicker saddle would effect the tone on a traditionally constructed instrument and players can hear the difference of the attack envelope if the strings have varying sizes and shapes of "bearing" points.
classical guitars are sensitive.

[Soundhound]

Thanks everyone for the effort and insight. Very much appreciated. I actually have been playing a long time and play with pretty good control.
But in all that time I've never delved very far into the world of tele-dom. I played les pauls and 335s as a kid, then strats for years. A strat and an lp are my two main guitars now.

I've had a couple of Teles over the years, and currently have an ASAT, which is very well made, and has a six saddle bridge.

I'm wanting to get a more traditional Tele now. Not because I'm wanting traditional twang necessarily (though it's nice to have that sound available), but actually because I played a few Nashes a while back, and was struck by the vibe of those guitars. They just felt and sounded great. I don't care how they look, if I could get a new one with that vibe I'd be just as happy (I'm looking into some of the builders like Rice, K-line and Danocaster btw).

So, my question really had more to do with how accurate 3 saddle bridges can get on their own vs a six saddle bridge, how much better compensated saddles are, and if anyone makes a good adjustable compensated 3 saddle bridge. The Wilkinson is the only one I've found so far.

[Al Watsky]

AFAIK the Wilkinson is the only 3 saddle that pivots. I think you'll find that any of the angled saddles will work if you adapt to them, which will happen in seconds if your already a player. Everyone pretty much knows how to make a tele that sounds good. You can't go wrong with any of the established builders, if you like their esthetic . I play tele's cause' they feel good, the body is the right size for me. I think its the best solid body electric ever designed. Thats not an objective statement I guess ? I also happily love how they sound ! Lucky break for me!

[bluesjuke]

Saw the swivel Wilkonsons on a Nash I ws interested in.
It's a good idea but as said too many parts for me.

[Tele5128]

Al,

Thanks for all your great insights man! Do you have a blog or some other on-line publication details your knowledge of these matters? Have your considered writing a book or doing a DVD Video presentation with demonstration on various guitars.

I basically studied Classical Guitar to make me a better all-around musician and guitar player. Both of my teachers (the second was the venerable Ray Chester of Peabody Conservatory) emphasized a balance of technique, harmony/ear training, analysis of the music being played, and repertoire.

I made it clear that my stated purpose for studying was to glean what I could and apply the principles and techniques to the other steel-string guitar styles that I play.

To that end, I do think it helped quite a bit. Anyway, I'd love to hear more from you on these things.

[Al Watsky]

5128, Thanks for the kind words.
No blog, no books,no DVD's, have been busy playing and practicing and repairing. Some CD's I'm on will come out this year. Various species of Pop and Funk. There will be touring. Gradually working on my own CD.
That sorta thing. Trying to stay solvent.
I guess I want folks to play the guitar in tune ? I'm a "geek" !
Lucky I touch type !!

[Tele5128]

Al,

Please let me know if your Band comes through central North Carolina. I'd love come out and hear you guys and buy you a beer.


Brian

[Soundhound]

So to sum up, is it fair to say that regular tele saddles can force you to work a bit harder for good intonation, compensated saddles pretty much do the job, and the adjustable compensated could be overkill?