A question about 250k pots compared to 500k?

Shelby21 · May 31st, 2008, 07:20 PM

whats the difference, do the 500k give the guitar a better sounder sound cause if thats the case ill go with 500...its for a telecaster, is that truley the difference or is it for something else??? thanks

K-Line · May 31st, 2008, 07:28 PM

I do not know how to explain but get 250K for a tele. Rule of thumb, 500k for hums and p-90, 250K for singles unless Jazzmasters, they use 1meg.

Nick JD · May 31st, 2008, 08:16 PM

This says:

As a potentiometer is turned fully down, all of the signal from the pickup(s) is diverted to ground, resulting in no output from the instrument. When the potentiometer is turned up to full volume, the resistance of the potentiometer theoretically prevents any of the output signal leaking to ground, and weakening the output signal. Lower value pots, however, do not completely block the signal from leaking to ground even when turned up all the way, so using a 250k potentiometer will result in a slight loss of high frequency, as well as volume. This may please some musicians who want a mellower tone, but for those seeking ultimate purity of signal, a higher value potentiometer may be just what is needed. The higher the value, the more leakage is blocked from ground, which allows more of the signal to be sent to the output. A 500k pot may be just right, but a 1meg ohm pot will provide an all out sonic assault. Higher highs; lower lows; more volume - a rocker's dream! The only drawback of going to this higher value is the perceived range and sweep of the control. It's like going from 0 to 10 without the fine increments of control in between.

The Telecaster® is a good example of potentiometers determining the overall sound of an electric instrument. The earliest Telecasters® utilized 1meg ohm potentiometers. They were deemed too bright to be practical for a wide range of musical styles. As a result, the potentiometers were changed to 250k to "bleed off" some of the extreme treble "twang" that the early versions were known and loved for (Stratocasters® also use 250k pots for the same reason). Some Gibson® laptop guitars had 5 meg ohm pots. Talk about bright!

So the confusing thing about why a bigger number makes a "clearer" sound is because the pot naturally "leaks" some sound (to ground), so bigger number = better able to "resist" leaking - not extra resistance in the signal. But the difference between 1M pots and wired straight from the pickup to the jack isn't much.

surfoverb · May 31st, 2008, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick JD

This says:
The Telecaster® is a good example of potentiometers determining the overall sound of an electric instrument. The earliest Telecasters® utilized 1meg ohm potentiometers. They were deemed too bright to be practical for a wide range of musical styles. As a result, the potentiometers were changed to 250k to "bleed off" some of the extreme treble "twang" that the early versions were known and loved for (Stratocasters® also use 250k pots for the same reason). Some Gibson® laptop guitars had 5 meg ohm pots. Talk about bright!

I'm not sure where they got that info...Going by the Duchossoir book Teles used 250K Ohm pots from 1950-1967 (the original circuit hand drawn by Leo himself calls for 1/4 meg) after which they used a 1meg for volume and in '69 a 1meg for tone as well....The rule of thumbs is the higher the number the more high-end gets through but less sweep. Just try different pots and see what happens. I can tell you there's barely a difference between a 250K pot and the pickup direct to the jack so take that FWIW.

Flat357 · May 31st, 2008, 08:41 PM

Pots are cheap & easy to swap with a little knowledge .

Single coil pups generally use 250k , but there is no ' must use ' when it comes to instruments and amps .

Smooth volume swells are also better with 250k in my opinion too .

Buy a few of each and experiment , but if you are unsure , and have single coils , try 250k .

Shelby21 · May 31st, 2008, 09:13 PM

i mean i have 250 in all my guitars and they sound great, im just looking for a more kick ass like power sound from the first strum of the strings i guess i though 500k would work

surfoverb · May 31st, 2008, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shelby21

i mean i have 250 in all my guitars and they sound great, im just looking for a more kick ass like power sound from the first strum of the strings i guess i though 500k would work

Turn up the amp if you want more power.

Joe Chaney · June 1st, 2008, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by surfoverb

Turn up the amp if you want more power.

what if you're on ten at the amp already
thats why amps need to go up to 11

surfoverb · June 1st, 2008, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Chaney

what if you're on ten at the amp already
thats why amps need to go up to 11

Thats why I use 1 million ohm pots...they are super powerfull!

Nick JD · June 1st, 2008, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by surfoverb

Thats why I use 1 million ohm pots...they are super powerfull!

Oh surfoverb, you just can't resist.

Ed Bickert · June 1st, 2008, 10:09 PM

FWIW I use a 250K pot with my Benedetto A6 equipped (in the neck) tele. I actually prefer the 250K pot on the bucker. But that might just be me.

tdowns · June 1st, 2008, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick JD

The higher the value, the more leakage is blocked from ground, ...

...a 1meg ohm pot will provide an all out sonic assault. Higher highs; lower lows; more volume ...

That first statement makes no sense.

The second statement is false. There is negligible change in the lows among pot values. I've done the analysis and simulation to prove it. The "leak" word is used a lot in this topic, which is not really what is happening.

A resonance exists between the inductance of the pickup and the total capacitance of the cable and amp input (and tone network if dialed in). If there is no volume pot, or a very high resistance one, that resonance can be quite large. It is a peak in frequency response. This resonance is generally in the treble region around 3-4kHz. If a longer cable is used, and/or the inductance of the pickup is higher, this resonance can be tuned to more in the midrange spectrum. So, having a high resistance pot does not always mean a peak of highs, but it is peak somewhere in frequency. With a Tele and a nominal instrument cable and amp input capacitance, the resonance is almost inevitably in the treble region. When a lower resistance pot is used, the peak of that resonance is lowered. On a regular Tele bridge pickup, a 125K load will completely flatten out the resonance.

There is a direct physics analogy to this electrical network. It is the suspension system on a car. Have you ever rode in a car with the shock absorbers removed? It's actually quite funny. You hit a bump and the resonance between the spring and the mass of the car results in a natural frequency resonance. You go bouncing all over the place. The spring is analogous to to the capacitance, and the mass of the car is analogous to the inductance of the pickup. The shock absorber is the resistance. The resistance damps out the resonance. The volume pot is a damper.

lostpick · June 1st, 2008, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdowns

On a regular Tele bridge pickup, a 125K load will completely flatten out the resonance.

I have often wondered what a bridge pup would sound like
with a 150 k pot....anybody ever try this?

alexpigment · June 1st, 2008, 11:56 PM

i actually use 25k pots in my strat :)

i have no idea why it uses that, but it's got active pickups in it, so i guess it has something to do with that

gtech · June 2nd, 2008, 12:48 AM

Active pickups have a built preamp in with a low Z output so that they are not affected by what they are connected to. So 25K is pretty much a standard for these active pickups.

Nick JD · June 2nd, 2008, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdowns

That first statement makes no sense.

The second statement is false. There is negligible change in the lows among pot values. I've done the analysis and simulation to prove it. The "leak" word is used a lot in this topic, which is not really what is happening.

A resonance exists between the inductance of the pickup and the total capacitance of the cable and amp input (and tone network if dialed in). If there is no volume pot, or a very high resistance one, that resonance can be quite large. It is a peak in frequency response. This resonance is generally in the treble region around 3-4kHz. If a longer cable is used, and/or the inductance of the pickup is higher, this resonance can be tuned to more in the midrange spectrum. So, having a high resistance pot does not always mean a peak of highs, but it is peak somewhere in frequency. With a Tele and a nominal instrument cable and amp input capacitance, the resonance is almost inevitably in the treble region. When a lower resistance pot is used, the peak of that resonance is lowered. On a regular Tele bridge pickup, a 125K load will completely flatten out the resonance.

There is a direct physics analogy to this electrical network. It is the suspension system on a car. Have you ever rode in a car with the shock absorbers removed? It's actually quite funny. You hit a bump and the resonance between the spring and the mass of the car results in a natural frequency resonance. You go bouncing all over the place. The spring is analogous to to the capacitance, and the mass of the car is analogous to the inductance of the pickup. The shock absorber is the resistance. The resistance damps out the resonance. The volume pot is a damper.

I've read this three times and I think I finally have it: single coils don't need as big shocks as HBs. Or perhaps a smoother road?! Cheers Terry

. Boo WDMusic

. I thought I finally got the whole pot value thing there for a minute...

FirstBassman · June 2nd, 2008, 11:10 AM

OK, this I almost understand this.
But I have a question I’m sure has been covered, so please forgive me.

If we simply state that 250k pots are for single-coils and 500k pots are for humbuckers, what is one supposed to use in a Telecaster that has only one volume pot, one tone pop but has one S/C and one H/B?

Thanks!

surfoverb · June 2nd, 2008, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FirstBassman

OK, this I almost understand this.
But I have a question I’m sure has been covered, so please forgive me.

If we simply state that 250k pots are for single-coils and 500k pots are for humbuckers, what is one supposed to use in a Telecaster that has only one volume pot, one tone pop but has one S/C and one H/B?

Thanks!

300K? I dunno...

Otter · June 2nd, 2008, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by surfoverb

Thats why I use 1 million ohm pots...they are super powerfull!

I might have missed the joke, but a 1 meg pot is one million ohms, no?

meg(a)=million
k(ilo)=thousand

surfoverb · June 2nd, 2008, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otter

I might have missed the joke, but a 1 meg pot is one million ohms, no?

meg(a)=million
k(ilo)=thousand

1 million sounds more powerfull than 1 meg.

John Lipfert · June 2nd, 2008, 05:26 PM

Since good quality CTS pots are cheap (five or six bucks) and easy to replace if you practice a little and have a decent soldering iron, I like to try both in a guitar before I pick one. One of my guitars, a Squier 51, has two humbuckers but is still a very bright guitar with a 250K pot. Another guitar with Fralin P-92s is a bit too mellow with 500K pots, but I'm going to replace the crappy bridge that's on it first before I tweak the electronics any more.

rogerzilla · June 2nd, 2008, 05:52 PM

I use 500k pots, but my pickups are stacked humbuckers, so they need a bit of brightness.

FirstBassman · June 2nd, 2008, 07:48 PM

I'm sorry to say I've never touched a soldering iron in my life.

I'm having the tech put the pups in.
Hopefully he'll know what to do.

Flat357 · June 2nd, 2008, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FirstBassman

I'm sorry to say I've never touched a soldering iron in my life.

I'm having the tech put the pups in.
Hopefully he'll know what to do.

Get yourself an iron , a stand , and some solder and practise .

Here's one of many vids . You can fnd specific vids too .

Learning to solder will save you a lot of money , and get you out of the crap quickly in many situations .

May 31st, 2008, 07:20 PM	#1 (permalink)
Shelby21 Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: hazlet,Nj Age: 21 Posts: 153	A question about 250k pots compared to 500k? whats the difference, do the 500k give the guitar a better sounder sound cause if thats the case ill go with 500...its for a telecaster, is that truley the difference or is it for something else??? thanks

May 31st, 2008, 07:28 PM	#2 (permalink)
K-Line TDPRI Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: St. Louis, Missourah Posts: 19	I do not know how to explain but get 250K for a tele. Rule of thumb, 500k for hums and p-90, 250K for singles unless Jazzmasters, they use 1meg. __________________ Chris K-Line ckroenlein@sbcglobal.net

May 31st, 2008, 08:16 PM	#3 (permalink)
Nick JD Friend of Leo's Join Date: May 2007 Location: North NSW, Australia Age: 36 Posts: 2,578	This says: As a potentiometer is turned fully down, all of the signal from the pickup(s) is diverted to ground, resulting in no output from the instrument. When the potentiometer is turned up to full volume, the resistance of the potentiometer theoretically prevents any of the output signal leaking to ground, and weakening the output signal. Lower value pots, however, do not completely block the signal from leaking to ground even when turned up all the way, so using a 250k potentiometer will result in a slight loss of high frequency, as well as volume. This may please some musicians who want a mellower tone, but for those seeking ultimate purity of signal, a higher value potentiometer may be just what is needed. The higher the value, the more leakage is blocked from ground, which allows more of the signal to be sent to the output. A 500k pot may be just right, but a 1meg ohm pot will provide an all out sonic assault. Higher highs; lower lows; more volume - a rocker's dream! The only drawback of going to this higher value is the perceived range and sweep of the control. It's like going from 0 to 10 without the fine increments of control in between. The Telecaster® is a good example of potentiometers determining the overall sound of an electric instrument. The earliest Telecasters® utilized 1meg ohm potentiometers. They were deemed too bright to be practical for a wide range of musical styles. As a result, the potentiometers were changed to 250k to "bleed off" some of the extreme treble "twang" that the early versions were known and loved for (Stratocasters® also use 250k pots for the same reason). Some Gibson® laptop guitars had 5 meg ohm pots. Talk about bright! So the confusing thing about why a bigger number makes a "clearer" sound is because the pot naturally "leaks" some sound (to ground), so bigger number = better able to "resist" leaking - not extra resistance in the signal. But the difference between 1M pots and wired straight from the pickup to the jack isn't much. __________________

May 31st, 2008, 08:41 PM	#5 (permalink)
Flat357 Friend of Leo's Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Cheshire Age: 40 Posts: 2,913	Pots are cheap & easy to swap with a little knowledge . Single coil pups generally use 250k , but there is no ' must use ' when it comes to instruments and amps . Smooth volume swells are also better with 250k in my opinion too . Buy a few of each and experiment , but if you are unsure , and have single coils , try 250k . __________________ Homepage http://www.soundclick.com/members/de...member=flat357 MySpace http://www.myspace.com/flat357

June 1st, 2008, 10:09 PM	#11 (permalink)
Ed Bickert Tele-Holic Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Cape Cod, MA Age: 40 Posts: 946	FWIW I use a 250K pot with my Benedetto A6 equipped (in the neck) tele. I actually prefer the 250K pot on the bucker. But that might just be me. __________________ Sorry, not the real Ed Bickert. Just a fan.

May 31st, 2008, 09:13 PM	#6 (permalink)
Shelby21 Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: hazlet,Nj Age: 21 Posts: 153	i mean i have 250 in all my guitars and they sound great, im just looking for a more kick ass like power sound from the first strum of the strings i guess i though 500k would work

June 1st, 2008, 11:56 PM	#14 (permalink)
alexpigment Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Austin TX Posts: 333	i actually use 25k pots in my strat :) i have no idea why it uses that, but it's got active pickups in it, so i guess it has something to do with that

June 2nd, 2008, 12:48 AM	#15 (permalink)
gtech Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Quebec, Canada Age: 59 Posts: 1,999 173 Photos	Active pickups have a built preamp in with a low Z output so that they are not affected by what they are connected to. So 25K is pretty much a standard for these active pickups. __________________ Back to practice now...to make my Teles sound good.

June 2nd, 2008, 11:10 AM	#17 (permalink)
FirstBassman Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,377	OK, this I almost understand this. But I have a question I’m sure has been covered, so please forgive me. If we simply state that 250k pots are for single-coils and 500k pots are for humbuckers, what is one supposed to use in a Telecaster that has only one volume pot, one tone pop but has one S/C and one H/B? Thanks!

June 2nd, 2008, 05:26 PM	#21 (permalink)
John Lipfert Tele-Meister Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 111 4 Photos	Since good quality CTS pots are cheap (five or six bucks) and easy to replace if you practice a little and have a decent soldering iron, I like to try both in a guitar before I pick one. One of my guitars, a Squier 51, has two humbuckers but is still a very bright guitar with a 250K pot. Another guitar with Fralin P-92s is a bit too mellow with 500K pots, but I'm going to replace the crappy bridge that's on it first before I tweak the electronics any more.

June 2nd, 2008, 05:52 PM	#22 (permalink)
rogerzilla Tele-Meister Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: UK Posts: 128	I use 500k pots, but my pickups are stacked humbuckers, so they need a bit of brightness.

June 2nd, 2008, 07:48 PM	#23 (permalink)
FirstBassman Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,377	I'm sorry to say I've never touched a soldering iron in my life. I'm having the tech put the pups in. Hopefully he'll know what to do.