acrylic vs. nitro lacquer??

[boneyguy]

I really like the look of this Krylon acrylic lacquer I'm using. It's a much warmer not so plastic look as the poly that I'm used to using.

So I have some questions....

1) The Krylon I'm using is an acrylic lacquer. What differences would there be if I used a nitro type lacquer such as Deft in terms of dry to the touch time, application, wait between coats, cure time, hardness etc. The Krylon dries to the touch in about 3 minutes at the most and is cured in 24hrs or so they say.

2) Is the Deft any less toxic than this Krylon product which contains toluene, acetone, butane, methyl ethyl ketone.

3) Any advantages to using one or the other??


Thanks guys.

[Buckocaster51]

Somebody will add to this...and straighten me out if I get something wrong...

But I think the SOLVENTS in both acrylic and nitrocellulose are pretty much the same...and that is the bad stuff.

The difference between nitro and acrylic is what is actually dissolved, and what gets left behind on the surface after the solvents gas-off.

True nitro would be made of wood or plant products. Acrylic stuff comes out of a test tube, and before that, probably an oil well.

In my experience, based upon coat thickness and environmental conditions, "drying" time for both can vary. Under the same conditions, I would put my money on nitro by a nose.

I see no advantage of one over the other. Use the one that does the job.

At least that's the way I see things.

But then, I make up most of this as I go along.

[Ed Bickert]

Nitro takes about 3 to 6 months....yes months....to fully cure. Much longer if it's cold and damp.

This topic is an old demon and if you search past posts you'll find plenty of advice here. In fact, nothing I can think of saying would be new.

If you want that old timey mojo, with the giant hassle of the application, get nitro. And do your research as not all nitro is equal...or even genuine nitro for that matter.

Best bet? Get the poly. Wors fast, is MUCH stronger than nitro, and cheaper too.

[boneyguy]

Thanks guys. This topic is sort of a continuation of this thread I started yesterday. http://www.tdpri.com/forum/telecaste...ed-advice.html

I've always used poly in the past so the lacquer thing is new to me but I have to say I like what I see so far.

If the only real difference between acrylic and nitro is the cure time then the choice, for me, is obvious. I'm just not sure that's the only difference.

According to Krylon, both from the can and the customer service rep I spoke with today, the cure time is 24hrs. Does that mean I can do a level and polish after only 24hrs.?!!

[Nick JD]

Originally Posted by boneyguy

According to Krylon, both from the can and the customer service rep I spoke with today, the cure time is 24hrs. Does that mean I can do a level and polish after only 24hrs.?!!

I did a level and polish on a neck after spraying acrylic lacquer after about 18 hours, if my memory is correct. Worked fine. Started with 600 wet ... up to 1200 and then hand polished with a cloth and cutting compound.

It was about 70% relative humidity and 30 degrees C too when I sprayed. The clear lacquer went on thick, didn't run, and was full of really bad blush that actually came out as it dried (I wasn't worried about the blush because the neck was for a carbon fiber mold - I just needed a perfect polished surface).

Acrylic lacquer is nowhere near as hard as Polyurethane though.

[jwells393]

......because the neck was for a carbon fiber mold

Nick ........... are you ever going to show us how you made that carbon fiber neck.

[jimmybusk]

Lacquer itself comes from the shell of the Lacquer Beetle [Lacquer spelled a different way] ,Thats why it looks more natural {similar to your fingernail].. One is acyilic,and the other is Nitro-Cellulose ,which is Nitrate[I think} like the old Nitrate pick guards {green guard] mixed with cellulose ,same as celluloid [Movie film]. Maybe those old fender lap steels had film in there to make that " Mother of Toilet seat" look.. I think one beef they had with it was safety,it's extremely flamable. In the old movie ,Fire Scenes ,they would take old film ,Load it into a stagecoach, lite her up..,and the town was ablaze....Whoops,Sorry,..'I got off track ! Lacquer takes more preperation,time to apply,and needs more coats to cover,but sounds more crisp than enamel ,poly,and all that other bubble gum [Imo]... Leo used Nitro-Cellulose from '1950- to around '64 ??? I think the custom colors were auto nitro -cellulose ,brand name "Ducco" . After CBS ,they went to Acrilic lacquer "Dupont Lucite". Which was a little more elastic[Less checking],and I Think took to Metallic better. I like the Nitro best....On guitars. When I was a kid, I used to work in Body shops,and remember throwing all that "useless" old Ducco and Lucite ,with "unlimited Shelf life" in the trash..... '55 Chevy=sea foam green .....'64 ? Caddy= Shoreline gold ...etc. ..

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by jimmybusk

Lacquer itself comes from the shell of the Lacquer Beetle [Lacquer spelled a different way] ,Thats why it looks more natural {similar to your fingernail].. One is acyilic,and the other is Nitro-Cellulose ,which is Nitrate[I think} like the old Nitrate pick guards {green guard] mixed with cellulose ,same as celluloid [Movie film]. Maybe those old fender lap steels had film in there to make that " Mother of Toilet seat" look.. I think one beef they had with it was safety,it's extremely flamable. In the old movie ,Fire Scenes ,they would take old film ,Load it into a stagecoach, lite her up..,and the town was ablaze....Whoops,Sorry,..'I got off track ! Lacquer takes more preperation,time to apply,and needs more coats to cover,but sounds more crisp than enamel ,poly,and all that other bubble gum [Imo]... Leo used Nitro-Cellulose from '1950- to around '64 ??? I think the custom colors were auto nitro -cellulose ,brand name "Ducco" . After CBS ,they went to Acrilic lacquer "Dupont Lucite". Which was a little more elastic[Less checking],and I Think took to Metallic better. I like the Nitro best....On guitars. When I was a kid, I used to work in Body shops,and remember throwing all that "useless" old Ducco and Lucite ,with "unlimited Shelf life" in the trash..... '55 Chevy=sea foam green .....'64 ? Caddy= Shoreline gold ...etc. ..

The word lacquer has become more of a generic term for all sorts of coatings. I assure you there are no Lac Beetle secretions in either acrylic or nitro lacquer. However shellac is composed of the Lac Beetle's resinous secretions and alcohol as a solvent. The history of shellac is quite fascinating as is it's myriad uses still today.

The piece below I've reposted several times before and now seems like a good time again. This was from a post by MarkDavis about a year ago or so. It's written by Mark Kendrick who worked as a Master Builder at Fender. It's a nice description of the Fender history of finishes. Eye opening!!!

Fender just stopped doing all nitro in 68 in 69 they used poly undercoats and nitro topcoats. Here is what Mark Kendrick Master Builder @ Fender says.

Pardon my typos. I've lost alot of brain cells in my day. Could it be the 'Nitro'.

The first Fender lap steel was finished in black enamel. When Doc Kauffman and Leo formed K&F guitars in 1945, their original instruments, including the amplifiers, were finished in a lead based, wrinkle coat enamel. A nice shade of Battleship Grey. That was the only color available. After expermenting with different woods other than pine for guitars, they began using nitrocellulose lacquer. They used what was available to the furniture trade at the time.
The original colors were blonde, sunburst, etc... just like your Grandmas coffee table.

Custom colors were introduced in 1955. Once again they were enamel. The same material they used in the auto industry. The enamel would not adhere to the stearate based nitocellulose sanding sealer. Acrylic lacquers were then developed by Dupont to be sprayed on material other than metal. "Duco colors". In order for the paint to adhere, Fender began using a Sherwin Williams product called Homoclad. It was a penetrating, heavy solid, oil based sealer used as a barrier coat to to provide better adhesion for their guitars with custom colors. It was applied by dipping the guitar bodies directly into a 55 gallon drum, filled with the product. ALL Fender guitars produced after 1955 used this product until 1967, when Fender began experimenting with polyesters an undercoat.

By 1968, virtually all Fender guitar products used polyester as an undercoat, including necks. It's a two part product using Methyl Ethyl Ketone(MEK) as a catalyst. The reason the face of the pegheads were not sealed with polyester, is because type 'C' decals (under the finish) would not adhere to the product. While it is true a few guitars may have squeaked by with homoclad, when homoclad wasn't available, they used a Fuller O'Brian product called Ful-O-Plast. PLASTIC!!! It's obvious to me that those necks or bodies were stragglers, having to be reworked for some reason or another and not shipped after the change.

I'd like to make one thing clear... ALL FENDER GUITARS PRODUCED AFTER 1968 HAD A POLYESTER UNDERCOAT WITH A LACQUER TOPCOAT!!! There is no specific ratio. Enough poly was, and is sprayed to properly fill the grain while preventig a burn through while sanding.

In 1983, Fender began using polyuerthane as a topcoat. It cured quicker. It had better clarity. It had more depth and gloss, and didn't melt when you accidently spilled 151 on it. Fender then discontinued the use of polyester on the necks. Polyurethane is a 2 part product using a catalyst.

Fender has continued to use polyester, polyurethane, nitro, homoclad, and Ful-O-Plast.

Nitro is not a superior finish. An electric guitar doesn't 'breathe' at 120 db.

My first year at Fender I personally painted approximately 46,000 guitars. I like polyester. I like Nitro colors too. But maybe I'll let the players that use poly (ester or urethane) speak for themselves...

Billy Gibbons, Geddy Lee, Alex Lifeson, Joe Perry, Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Roccco Prestia, Jimmie Vaughn, Nils Lofgren, Vince Gill, Chet Atkins, Tom Hamilton, Lenny Kravitz, Merle Haggard, Don Rich, Darryl Jones, Mike Stern, Larry Carlton, Peter Frampton, Sting, Marty Stuart, just to name a few. More are available upon request.

Hope this helps,

Mark K.
__________________

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by Nick JD

I did a level and polish on a neck after spraying acrylic lacquer after about 18 hours, if my memory is correct. Worked fine. Started with 600 wet ... up to 1200 and then hand polished with a cloth and cutting compound.

It was about 70% relative humidity and 30 degrees C too when I sprayed. The clear lacquer went on thick, didn't run, and was full of really bad blush that actually came out as it dried (I wasn't worried about the blush because the neck was for a carbon fiber mold - I just needed a perfect polished surface).

Acrylic lacquer is nowhere near as hard as Polyurethane though.

Thanks Nick.

I'm not worried about the fact that the acrylic isn't as hard as the poly. I don't consider the neck of a guitar to be a piece of wood that gets alot of abuse. It's a 'high traffic but low impact' area I would say, at least compared to something like a hardwood floor or a kitchen table top.

[reddogbass]

I wish someone (like maybe a mfr. rep, or a chemist with painting experience) who really knew what they were talking about, would weigh in on the subject.

Let's face it- todays offerings, either acrylic or "nitro" reacts the same to the surface it is applied to. It goes on the same way- flashes at roughly the same time- finishes the same way- buffs out the same, blah, blah, blah! There is no performance difference between the two, etc, etc, etc. There is no tonal difference, and so on.

Keep in mind we are talking about today's offerings. If you were to compare "nitro" from 1955 to todays acrylics, yes there would be some differences. But most of that would be only evident as it aged. As applied and buffed out you couldn't tell the difference between the two for a good period of time. But we ain't talking 1955 "nitro."

As for today's "nitro" lacquer... is it the same as what Fender used 50 years ago? Is it really "nitro?" Does it really matter? It's been said that Deft is "nitro." Prove it! There are many suppliers claiming their lacquer product is "nitro." Really? Prove it!

It's also been said that the two products (nitro and acylic lacquer) are not compatible. Meaning, you can't top-coat one with the other. That just isn't so. When acrylics were introduced years ago, it was very common to use acrylics for touch-ups over original "nitro" color coats. I certainly don't remember any problems.

I personally feel that we are making too much of this "nitro" thing. I'm not sure that we can differentiate between the two in it's current makeup.

Again, anyone with real knowledge on the subject care to straighten us out?

[boneyguy]

I read somewhere, but I can't remember where unfortunately, that in fact true nitro lacquer is not made anymore and the term nitro is acutally used in a generic sort of way like the word lacquer often is. I have no idea if this is true or not but it could be.

It seems to me that all this mystery and guessing about finishes could be solved very easily. I mean the industry is highly regulated is it not? Especially since the advent of environmental laws and so forth. It has to be pretty clear what's being manufactured and what is not anymore right?

Edit: This is from Wikipedia.

Despite the similarities in their names, shellac and lacquer are not the same, and are not related. Shellac is an insect resin secreted by the Lac bug, which lives in India and Southeast Asia. Shellac’s solvent is alcohol. Lacquer is based on cellulose nitrate (nitrocellulose) with resins added to make it less brittle, and nitrocellulose is made from wood pulp. Lacquer’s solvent is lacquer thinner. [1]

Here's a nice article on lacquers in general and their differences.

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworki...t.aspx?id=2948

[boneyguy]

So here's another question regarding acrylic vs nitro.

Does acrylic melt into the previous coats like nitro does to form one contiguous coat or does it make multiple seperate coats like poly does as it's applied??

[Nick JD]

Double post.

[Nick JD]

Originally Posted by boneyguy

So here's another question regarding acrylic vs nitro.

Does acrylic melt into the previous coats like nitro does to form one contiguous coat or does it make multiple seperate coats like poly does as it's applied??

I'm no chemisterologist, but my guess is that nearly everything that isn't catalyzed 'melts' into the previous layer if you spray within a few minutes of 'drying'. Catalyzed plastics don't 'dry', they harden - they will also form a chemical bond with their previous layer if they are not fully cured.

Originally Posted by jwells393

Nick ........... are you ever going to show us how you made that carbon fiber neck.

Hi, Jack! (pun intended ). BTW, Jack, it took me about twenty tries to get the camera to take these two photos. Must get new camera before I start a build thread...

Yep - that's what a headstock looks like from the inside!



Fretboard - 4 x 5.7oz carbon twill in vacuum bag @ -85Kpa (25"Hg).

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by Nick JD

I'm no chemisterologist.......,

..though I have played one on the internet.

Nice word you've coined there Nick. Good on ya!!

[ramblinmike]

Honestly, I don't think it matters. I've done both. Wipe on poly feels the same in my opinion. As long as it is a thin finish, I can't tell the difference. I guess in 20 years you would notice which is poly and which is nitro/acrylic. But if you spray one or two coats, and then wipe on a few coats of minwax PolyU, and then steel wool it down a bit, it feels pretty darn natural to me. But if you want the "lacquer" experience, then go for it. My understanding is that any lacquer you get these days is programmed not to age. But thats going on what the Deft label told me. Maybe other lacquers are more "natural."

[jimmybusk]

Nice thread !... Thanks for the correction. .'How about the "theory " floating around ,about Mercury being an additive in the old Lacquer, which now shows up with a black light ....etc. ???

[reddogbass]

Originally Posted by boneyguy View Post
So here's another question regarding acrylic vs nitro.

Does acrylic melt into the previous coats like nitro does to form one contiguous coat or does it make multiple seperate coats like poly does as it's applied??

This has been bantered around a bit. I'm not sure I buy into it. If subsequent coats "melted" into previous coats, we would see a lot more painting disasters than we do. One such disaster is when top-coating enamels with lacquer. This is an incompatibility with the solvents in lacquer, and it's ability to soften almost anything, except finishes which have completely cured, either naturally or chemically- such as lacquer and catalyzed poly.

Now I'm not chemist, and I can't crawl in there with all them molecules to see what's really going on, but my take on the melting in thing is this. I don't think it does. I now think, and always have, that lacquer is so "fine" structurally, and the fact that it dries completely, we are able to blend successive coats without any telltale signs, where one coat ends, and the other starts. Hence the ability to touch up lacquer with ease.

I could be all wet though, but my lacquer is dry.