Laying another couple of myths to rest, (again). - Page 2

tboy · April 15th, 2008, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Davis

Every Les Paul I play even my own sound dead dull and lifeless unplugged and any Tele I have owned is at least 2x's louder unplugged.

But plug them in and its the exact opposite the Les Pauls are 2 x's louder and sustain 3x's longer.

I've also experienced this, but don't forget about those LP hummers. More output than any stock tele pup.

I really do believe that the increased sustain is a function of a more massive support system in the LP. The mass of a Paul interacts far less with the string vibes, thus stealing less energy from the strings for the pup to "hear".
Acoustics are designed the opposite. The system is designed to resonate. More interaction = more volume.
Remember those clips for electric headstocks that were suppose to increase sustain? Theory is they add mass, decreasing neck resonance.
No hard, fast rules here. Too many variables, but basic physics of mass and energy do apply.

Flat357 · April 15th, 2008, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telenator

You may need to read this thread a little more carefully.

First, you say, "Dispells nothing to me ... sorry."

Then you go on to say things in support of everything I have been saying throughout this thread.

I know. It's a lot of words and who really has the time!

You caught me in the act , and manipulated me tele-pathically didn't you ?

I start off knowing what I want to say , then get lost in my own thoughts he he

maestrovert · April 15th, 2008, 02:22 PM

it's interesting to note that the normal manufacturing tolerance(s) for caps used in electric guitars can be as much
as a +/- 10% variation, which would by itself account for the experience noted in this thread's O.P.
So, unless and until the P-ups, parts and set up are absolutely identical, such observations prove nothing, dispel nothing.

y.m.m.v.

serialsteve · April 15th, 2008, 02:29 PM

You guys all sound like a bunch of sheep.

EVERYONE knows that the difference between these guitars and the superior tone of the one is that that one had slotted screws where the other had Phillips-style heads.

Duh. ;P

Flat357 · April 15th, 2008, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by serialsteve

You guys all sound like a bunch of sheep.

EVERYONE knows that the difference between these guitars and the superior tone of the one is that that one had slotted screws where the other had Phillips-style heads.

Duh. ;P

That's utter nonsense .
Screws only alter tone if they are threaded left to right .

I lost a screw once and my band sacked me

Telenator · April 15th, 2008, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gibsonjunkie

I have to jump in here, since I've gone guitar shopping with Telenator a number of times. When he tests guitars he really gives them a go. Different amps, different styles of playing. He really plays the snot out of them. In fact we found a style of strat I really liked but went through several before we found "it" - the one that stood head and shoulders above the rest (again proving the idea that identical guitars can and will sound distinctly different). Bob also builds really amazing guitars and a set up by him is almost a rebuild. His observations aren't just to start a flame war, he has gone the extra mile enough times that his observation has some validity... shoot - he's a big boy - he can defend himself well enough, but he made his assumptions on a serious A-B test; as well as a lifetime of playing many guitars.

Hey, we did pick a spankin' good Strat too, didn't we! That guitar sounds every bit as good as Strats costing hundreds of dollars more! It's a ringer gibsonjunkie!

Colt W. Knight · April 15th, 2008, 05:50 PM

I know expensive acoustics guitars generally sound the same plugged in as moderate-good quality acoustics. However, they can differ dramatically purely acoustic. I know acoustic wisdom doesn't transfer to solid body electrics, but I am agreeing with everyone here that you need to play a guitar before the purchase is made because all the cosmos have to align on parts for it to have "it".

gibsonjunkie · April 15th, 2008, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telenator

Hey, we did pick a spankin' good Strat too, didn't we! That guitar sounds every bit as good as Strats costing hundreds of dollars more! It's a ringer gibsonjunkie!

Mercy buccups! That is one fine guitar....

Telarkaster · April 15th, 2008, 06:28 PM

Thanks Telenator, I appreciate this post a lot.

I always believed that electrics are built to be plugged in. I've played hollowbodies that sounded crappy unplugged, but magical when plugged in (Gretsch Electromatics for ex). Good points were made about the transfer of energy from the strings to the body that is transformed into sound when unplugged, but essentially lost when plugged. A pickup reads the vibrations of the strings, not the energy transformed into sound and lost in the air.

I only play them unplugged in a store to check the feel of the neck, and the ergonomics on an unfamiliar model. If I don't stab myself on a sprouting fret, or cut my fingers on action that is too high, or don't see any blemishes, then I plug it in and play it for real. I don't plug that many in, it's my way of being efficient when shopping. Resonnance is not something I check for.

Like E-Merlin I'm not sure if I understand your second assertion that wood is important, since they were made from the same material. I don't totally discount the importance of wood in an electric, but I will maintain that MOST of the magic is in the pickups, but not all.

There are many factors that could have explained the difference other than the wood as pointed out by others here:

-the pickups could have been wound differently
-the neck joint could have been worse one compared to the other
-bridge assembly could have been off
-strings could have been dead
-one could have been built on a Wednesday, the other on a Friday afternoon

But most of all your post confirms one thing: The AV52 Hot Rod is a great guitar! Even a "bad" one sounded good to you.

Are you thinking of getting one, or were you just curious?

Nick JD · April 15th, 2008, 07:34 PM

One man's tone is another man's earache, but it's wonderful that all guitars sound different (even the same model) because it's this variation and it's subsequent evolution/devolution that makes guitars interesting.

I think Groove Armada said it well:

If everybody looked the same
We'd get tired looking at each other

Telenator · April 15th, 2008, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telarkaster

Are you thinking of getting one, or were you just curious?

I was more curious than anything. I already have too many guitars but I am a hopeless shop-a-holic. I just love shopping for gear and I play everything. You'll find me in any number of music stores at least twice a week. I know most of the people and they often pull stuff down for me that they think I would like. Then, every once in a while, a really special guitar comes along and I buy it. It might be a Strat that simply sings like no other, or a Tele that just gets my blood boiling! Some of my guitars are so seriously nice I can hardly stand it! But alas, none of them have that covetted "acoustic resonance." I think I'll live.

Caffeine Patrol · April 15th, 2008, 09:41 PM

Another thing this says to me is that you really take your chances buying a guitar over the Internetz that you've never played.

Joe-Bob · April 15th, 2008, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telenator

Some of my guitars are so seriously nice I can hardly stand it!

Send 'em to me. I'll find a way to tolerate 'em.

April 15th, 2008, 02:22 PM	#43 (permalink)
maestrovert Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: West Branch Mi. Posts: 6,192	it's interesting to note that the normal manufacturing tolerance(s) for caps used in electric guitars can be as much as a +/- 10% variation, which would by itself account for the experience noted in this thread's O.P. So, unless and until the P-ups, parts and set up are absolutely identical, such observations prove nothing, dispel nothing. y.m.m.v. __________________ Sing the Song Bro' Play on Drummer www.godonthe.net

April 15th, 2008, 06:28 PM	#49 (permalink)
Telarkaster Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Montreal Quebec Canada Posts: 1,606	Thanks Telenator, I appreciate this post a lot. I always believed that electrics are built to be plugged in. I've played hollowbodies that sounded crappy unplugged, but magical when plugged in (Gretsch Electromatics for ex). Good points were made about the transfer of energy from the strings to the body that is transformed into sound when unplugged, but essentially lost when plugged. A pickup reads the vibrations of the strings, not the energy transformed into sound and lost in the air. I only play them unplugged in a store to check the feel of the neck, and the ergonomics on an unfamiliar model. If I don't stab myself on a sprouting fret, or cut my fingers on action that is too high, or don't see any blemishes, then I plug it in and play it for real. I don't plug that many in, it's my way of being efficient when shopping. Resonnance is not something I check for. Like E-Merlin I'm not sure if I understand your second assertion that wood is important, since they were made from the same material. I don't totally discount the importance of wood in an electric, but I will maintain that MOST of the magic is in the pickups, but not all. There are many factors that could have explained the difference other than the wood as pointed out by others here: -the pickups could have been wound differently -the neck joint could have been worse one compared to the other -bridge assembly could have been off -strings could have been dead -one could have been built on a Wednesday, the other on a Friday afternoon But most of all your post confirms one thing: The AV52 Hot Rod is a great guitar! Even a "bad" one sounded good to you. Are you thinking of getting one, or were you just curious? Last edited by Telarkaster; April 15th, 2008 at 07:04 PM.

April 15th, 2008, 07:34 PM	#50 (permalink)
Nick JD Friend of Leo's Join Date: May 2007 Location: North NSW, Australia Age: 36 Posts: 2,231	One man's tone is another man's earache, but it's wonderful that all guitars sound different (even the same model) because it's this variation and it's subsequent evolution/devolution that makes guitars interesting. I think Groove Armada said it well: If everybody looked the same We'd get tired looking at each other __________________

April 15th, 2008, 02:29 PM	#44 (permalink)
serialsteve Tele-Holic Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 640	You guys all sound like a bunch of sheep. EVERYONE knows that the difference between these guitars and the superior tone of the one is that that one had slotted screws where the other had Phillips-style heads. Duh. ;P

April 15th, 2008, 05:50 PM	#47 (permalink)
Colt W. Knight Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Wyoming Age: 24 Posts: 1,807	I know expensive acoustics guitars generally sound the same plugged in as moderate-good quality acoustics. However, they can differ dramatically purely acoustic. I know acoustic wisdom doesn't transfer to solid body electrics, but I am agreeing with everyone here that you need to play a guitar before the purchase is made because all the cosmos have to align on parts for it to have "it".

April 15th, 2008, 09:41 PM	#52 (permalink)
Caffeine Patrol Tele-Meister Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 324	Another thing this says to me is that you really take your chances buying a guitar over the Internetz that you've never played.